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RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/20/2016 6:10:05 PM

DannyIsNotWelcom

Posts: 177
Joined: 8/7/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I like your idea that a furrowed brow could have 70 times more impact than than a harsh paddling. For some, the harsh paddling might be 70 times easier and less painful.

That is certainly the case. My master has once pretended to let me trade in my actual punishment - three months no sex - for a series of severe canings. I said only six strokes and only every other day for two weeks. Well that's 36, let's make it 40. Do you want to start right now? Of course not, it is just hard to measure how bad those measures actually feel for your slave while ten strokes are exactly the double of five.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 61

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 4:57:25 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I've long thought that so many people make this way more difficult and/or fluffily romantic than it really is.

IE does exist, but the reality is that it's just conditioning and reinforcement. It's the reason why Jonestown ended with 909 people dead. I'm not saying IE is evil, I'm just saying it's not something magical that is the sole domain of D/s relationships.

**wild applause**

Honestly, it seems to me that if you take two people and one prefers the support role and the other prefers the lead role and you put them in a relationship that works then IE is what you're going to end up with for perfectly normal and predictable reasons.... no BDSM constructs required.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 62

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 5:19:46 PM

ThatDizzyChick

Posts: 5490
Status: offline

quote:

it seems to me that if you take two people and one prefers the support role and the other prefers the lead role and you put them in a relationship that works then IE is what you're going to end up with

I disagree

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 63

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 5:29:00 PM

littleladybug

Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

it seems to me that if you take two people and one prefers the support role and the other prefers the lead role and you put them in a relationship that works then IE is what you're going to end up with

I disagree

Yeah, I don't see the necessary connection between a leader/support relationship and IE.

(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)

Post #: 64

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 5:31:57 PM

ThatDizzyChick

Posts: 5490
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Yeah, smacks of more wishful thinking to me, not really all that far removed from the OP.

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to littleladybug)

Post #: 65

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 6:20:05 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Yeah, smacks of more wishful thinking to me, not really all that far removed from the OP.

Perhaps then there is some difference in viewpoint as to what internal enslavement means? Certainly what I was discussing wasn't "wishful thinking" since it's my actual marriage. For me, at least, "internal enslavement" simply means that "enslaved" person has incorporated into their own self-identity that they must obey. Obviously, what can be done can be undone again but not without some substantial upsetting of the apple cart.

I had an interesting discussion with a couple who are into BDSM but self-identify as kinksters not lifestylers. They like a bit of slap & tickle in their sex... that's it... according to them. I laughed when they told me this and asked when the last time the wife had disobeyed the husband. The answer was that they couldn't recall such a time. But he's a strong leader. She tends to follow. And they adore the bejeebers out of each other. Why would she ever say no? Why would Carol? Sure, some commands can cause stress. But stacking that sort of stress up against decades of happiness is not an even contest.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)

Post #: 66

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 7:19:51 PM

littleladybug

Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Yeah, smacks of more wishful thinking to me, not really all that far removed from the OP.

Perhaps then there is some difference in viewpoint as to what internal enslavement means? Certainly what I was discussing wasn't "wishful thinking" since it's my actual marriage. For me, at least, "internal enslavement" simply means that "enslaved" person has incorporated into their own self-identity that they must obey. Obviously, what can be done can be undone again but not without some substantial upsetting of the apple cart.

Sure, but do you really believe that IE is present in every relationship where there is a leader/support person dynamic?

Can you speak for every relationship?

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 67

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 8:03:00 PM

ThatDizzyChick

Posts: 5490
Status: offline

quote:

Certainly what I was discussing wasn't "wishful thinking" since it's my actual marriage.

And your marriage is now the model for all relationships is it? I am sorry but what happened in your marriage is unique to your marriage and the fact that you ended up with what you call IE does not mean that having one member of a couple taking the lead role will inevitably result in anything resembling IE. And that is where you were doing the wishful thinking, in assuming that the one (a support/leader dynamic) will inevitably lead to the other (IE). It's not unlike the OP of the evolutionary psychology thread trying to justify his preferred dynamic as natural. That is essentially what you are doing.

In my relationship the Fellas are in charge and I follow/support, and I do so because I agreed to, and I agreed to because I chose to do so, not because of any internalizing of the dynamic into some part of my self-identity. I do it because it makes us all happy, not because I feel I have no choice, not because the idea of doing otherwise doesn't occur to me, and yeah, there are times when I simply say "Nope, sorry, not gonna happen". and that doesn't make me less of a support person in the relationship

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 68

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/22/2016 10:59:58 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
Sure, but do you really believe that IE is present in every relationship where there is a leader/support person dynamic?

As I ponder this more, though, I realize you're probably right. What would get solidified over time is whatever roles the couple had chosen that worked to produce positive results. If the initial role set was some highly limited D/s and that worked then that's what I would expect would get reinforced. What would be unthinkable (the IE part) is stepping outside of those roles... whatever they were.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to littleladybug)

Post #: 69

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/24/2016 8:22:21 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I had already clicked on LP's post to quote so I could respond after I finished reading this thread...

Well, why didn't you? Would have been a much better thread, in my opinion, if we could have discussed different perspectives. Otherwise, we're just left with the rubbish of the OP.

(Seriously, no so-called "therapist" should be using their personal outlook when dealing with patients. That's their kinks, relationship style, religion, political affiliation, or anything else. Doing so makes the professional side more with sympathy, rather than objectivity, which I find to be a slanted view when diagnosing anyone.)

On to the subject of Internal Enslavement...

In some ways, nope, I don't understand it at all. I understand things like grief because a person who has been married for twenty years has lost their spouse. I understand things, (from a logical, scientifically studied) like Stockholm Syndrome. I understand forms of long-term conditioning, when it's all of the time, every day. I can even get the internalization that some people do, when a constant in present.

When certain factors do not exist, IE does not exist. There <generally> must be an internalization factor and there must be freedom overridden by another influence.

A part of my outlook comes from being a military wife. I've always been married all of these years. (That's why I can understand a relationship with someone who isn't under the same roof.) However, I also keenly understand the differences in certain scenarios.

The majority of people who crow about Internal Enslavement on the internet, in my opinion, are full of horse hockey. There are some great M/s dynamics out there but I don't find it to be the higher percentage. If a person is retaining their own personal power, even over little things, I am highly skeptical that IE exists.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 70

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/24/2016 10:04:03 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If a person is retaining their own personal power, even over little things, I am highly skeptical that IE exists.

I'm kind of curious what, exactly, you mean by "personal power". As I read it that seems like a pretty extreme statement. We're not talking automatons here, are we? Absolutes don't really apply to humans and all that...

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 71

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/24/2016 10:28:41 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If a person is retaining their own personal power, even over little things, I am highly skeptical that IE exists.

I'm kind of curious what, exactly, you mean by "personal power". As I read it that seems like a pretty extreme statement. We're not talking automatons here, are we? Absolutes don't really apply to humans and all that...

Personal power means the decision making authority. Not especially the yes or no. Rather, the consequences. The acceptance of such consequences has much more to do with internal enslavement, than obedience.

In my opinion, IE is about authority, rather than obedience. It's the inner... Unsettling. I don't think anybody claiming IE can get away from that.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 72

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/24/2016 10:48:38 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Personal power means the decision making authority. Not especially the yes or no. Rather, the consequences. The acceptance of such consequences has much more to do with internal enslavement, than obedience.

In my opinion, IE is about authority, rather than obedience. It's the inner... Unsettling. I don't think anybody claiming IE can get away from that.

That's quite a far stretch from my own conceptual framework... far enough that I'm only barely grasping the intent. As you know, for us that was only ever one consequence and it wasn't a matter of whether or not she "accepted it". It just was. Man I'd like to have this discussion over a beer :)

Insofar as what anyone claiming <insert BDSM label> can get away with... you know better than that. You can only say such things within a community where the terms are mutually understood.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 73

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/24/2016 11:08:52 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

See? This is better than the original. <grin>

(Man, it had really be a good, damn beer.)

Due to the fact that I've never submitted, I only have conjecture. This means that I have to suppose the hypothetical.

Like everyone else, I live within society. If I balk within certain measures of authority, that cool, lil, conscious of what I'm doing wrong, speaks out.

Probably something different:

quote:

You can only say such things within a community where the terms are mutually understood.

Ummmm... Not so sure about that.

Even within the leather community, we don't agree on this stuff. I can promise you that I don't.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 74

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/25/2016 7:28:12 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Like everyone else, I live within society. If I balk within certain measures of authority, that cool, lil, conscious of what I'm doing wrong, speaks out.

This makes some sense to me. In fact, I almost included it in my response above. Carol gets a quite noticeable discomfort going at the idea that she won't make me happy. As that idea becomes more and more reality, the discomfort moves quickly into something like panic. I have no idea if she is "enslaved" or not, but there is clearly an internal component that is protesting strongly because she is "not in her place".

Carol and I also discussed (at length) your previous post and she helped me to see it as making more sense... particularly in light of the fact that unlike me, you also have that kink bit layered on top of the "real life" authority part. In a sense, both of us are about authority. But for me, there's no plus side in the consequence bit. Predictably, since "consequence" was all negative and no positive for me, we focused on authority successfully translating into obedience rather than authority failing and turning into consequence. Of course, the consequence was there. But there didn't seem much point in dwelling on "end the dynamic".

Of course, I have to laugh at my previous self from my current vantage point. Back then, I said things like I would "end the dynamic and release her" as if that was a thing that could actually happen without divorcing her. My only consequence was a mirage LOL.

quote:

You can only say such things within a community where the terms are mutually understood.

Ummmm... Not so sure about that. Even within the leather community, we don't agree on this stuff. I can promise you that I don't.

Sure you can. But if two people are talking about "enslavement" and one means a very different thing than the other by that term, then the conversation becomes meaningless. It's the endless sub/slave debates that go on here. They go on endlessly because there is no commonly agreed to definition so there is no right or wrong. Someone can "get away" with saying whatever they want about "internal enslavement" unless and until you can come up with a shared definition of the term... a canonical source.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 75

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/25/2016 7:56:34 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Where to begin?

My position would be about authority. That authority, in my opinion, should permeate one's existence. If a person wants to crow about *internal* enslavement, it would be my opinion that it is internalized, somewhere. It has to be a part of them, in some way.

With my limited articulation, I consider it like art. I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 76

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/25/2016 8:56:43 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Where to begin?
My position would be about authority. That authority, in my opinion, should permeate one's existence. If a person wants to crow about *internal* enslavement, it would be my opinion that it is internalized, somewhere. It has to be a part of them, in some way.

With my limited articulation, I consider it like art. I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it.

Interestingly, I'm also about authority in a sense. But I want that authority demonstrated. So for me, I attempt to exercise authority. But I cannot know if I have successfully done so until she either obeys or does not. So the obedience is the confirmation of the authority. Anyone can bark out commands. Getting people to obey those commands is (to me at least) where we find out the reality of the situation.

In some senses, that's not entirely correct. Even if Carol disobeyed I (used to anyway) retain authority in the sense that she had no vote in the consequence part. But I saw no reason to dwell on "failure cases". I have to admit that I'm fascinated by the fact that even now, with no expectation of obedience and no consequence, Carol's reaction to displeasing me remains pretty much the same... even with 2 years of me trying to undo that.

Insofar as talking with others, I do it all the time. But in doing so (like with you here), I acknowledge that we may not be entirely or even partially in agreement. So I'm not trying to be "right". I'm seeking to understand an alternate viewpoint. I "know it when I see it" when I see a dynamic like ours... no matter what it's called or what light it's cast in.. vanilla or otherwise. But I'd be unwilling to argue with someone else that they are not "internally enslaved" if their experience differed. I'd just want to understand the measures and milestones they were using.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 77

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/25/2016 11:59:09 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Talking about a concept, in my opinion, isn't a demonstration of anything.

Neither are purposeful demonstrations, in my opinion.

I suppose I'm jaded. I'm less likely to believe anyone who is trying to tell me that they are the slaviest slave or (other side of the slash) the Domliset Dom. As the old saying goes, if you have to tell me you are, you're probably not. I'll see it without somebody trying to hold a flashing neon sign over their head.

For example. Is Carol internally enslaved? From my perspective, I believe she is. A part of this is her predisposition to follow another person's lead. It wasn't because she was screaming, "look at me, LP... See what a slave I am."

ETA - Sorry for the short explanation. I have a date this afternoon.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 6/25/2016 12:08:33 PM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 78

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/25/2016 3:39:42 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Is Carol internally enslaved? From my perspective, I believe she is. A part of this is her predisposition to follow another person's lead.

*laugh* Nobody seems to care what Carol and I think about it. The head of the local MAST chapter also unequivocally states we are "M/s" despite him (like you now that I think on it) being old-school leather. When we tell him it is either vanilla or undefined I can see the "Sure, whatever you say" in his eyes LOL.

It wasn't because she was screaming, "look at me, LP... See what a slave I am."
Certainly the self-proclamation of some title is worth everything it costs. I just restrict my judgement to "internally enslaved in the way I conceptualize it" which is a bit different than "internally enslaved".

When you get around to it though, I'd be fascinated to hear more from you on what constitutes "enslaved". I know you focus on authority and consequence and I think I see some of the drivers for that focus but some time lets discuss that in more depth. There is, of course, skype and whatnot if voice is better (probably).

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 6/25/2016 3:40:35 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 79

RE: Internal Enslavement v Total Power Exchange - 6/25/2016 7:38:03 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

It occurs to me that if the consequence isn't the person feeling awful about not being able to obey, then there isn't ant internalization happening.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 80

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