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RE: Autism and Vaccination - 5/31/2016 2:30:54 AM

Staleek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Once you've got it, it's not like taking an aspirin for a headache - you've got it and that's that.
There is no medicine to 'cure' it; you have to let it take its course. The body usually does what the vaccinations do - they generate antibodies to fight the virus and (usually) eventually kill it.

This is not necessarily the case anymore. Antiviral drugs have been developed which work by breaking down the protein chains of a particular virus, attacking the virus at the molecular level. They are VERY fiddly and expensive to produce though, and are unlikely to be available to anybody but wealthy western patients for a long time yet.

In general, as someone with an epidemiology degree the parents should NOT be fined or prosecuted. Measles is a serious disease and is a cause of major death and disability in mainly third world nations, but your own body is your own body. You should have the absolute right to refuse medical intervention.

Also, I do have concerns about some of these vaccines. Measles, Mumps, Rubella vaccines are routinely given to kids in the UK and has had few ill effects, certainly fewer than we would have had if the viruses would have been free to run their course. However in the USA a varicella has been routinely given in addition to these three and has had some serious consequences.

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RE: Autism and Vaccination - 5/31/2016 3:28:40 AM

Termyn8or

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Measles fatal ? By what mechanism ? I thought it was pretty much just a rash.

T^T

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RE: Autism and Vaccination - 5/31/2016 4:11:12 AM

Staleek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Measles fatal ? By what mechanism ? I thought it was pretty much just a rash.

T^T

Nooooo. Measles is quite a nasty customer. That rash is actually your own capillaries being damaged by serious inflammation and the release of nitric oxide as your body is takes a "scorched earth" approach in an effort to protect itself. This is a serious illness.

Firstly it is extraordinarily contagious. The secondary attack rate of measles is extremely high, upwards of 80% (flu is about 30%). If your immune system isn't aware of the disease and you are exposed to it there is a very high likelyhood you're going to get it.

Measles is pretty harsh on the first location it generally reaches - your lungs. What's worse it actually likes to take on your defensive cells such as macrophages and dendritic cells. Macrophages generally don't move around much as they're very big and like to hang out in one place, think of them as your immunity tank battalion. But your dendritic cells are like the special forces. They go almost everywhere, and they are the cells mostly responsible for identifying threats and keeping files on them (although macrophages do that too). The measles virus actually uses these cells to not only make more of themselves, but to hitch a ride right into your lymph nodes where there all of the other special forces like to hang (think of these as your immune systems barracks).

Your immune system is now under serious attack. And among the soldiers heading out to fight this enemy are infected cells, unwittingly spreading the virus further and further around the body.

Now a health immune system in a healthy human can generally win the battle given enough time. But during this time you have a compromised immune response, leaving you vulnerable to all sorts of other tiny assassins which want to get inside your lovely warm, wet and nutritious body.

One of the big risks associated with measles is encephalitis (brain inflammation). Dendritic cells, being absolutely vital for your survival and being the bodies principle foot soldier, have access to all sorts of high security areas of your body. If enough measles infected cells get through to your brain they can trigger inflammation in there. You know that horrible itchy rash on your arms and legs? Imagine it inside your skull!

Just a FYI - rashes are serious. We don't think of them as such because they come and go, but the mechanism by which many diseases kill (including Marburg and Ebola) is technically by rash. A rash basically is your body turning into a warzone to fight off an invader. If the battle is fierce enough the invader may well be vanquished but there are no buildings left standing afterwards.

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RE: Autism and Vaccination - 5/31/2016 4:19:30 AM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Measles fatal ? By what mechanism ? I thought it was pretty much just a rash.

T^T

From Wiki: Measles is a highly contagious infection caused by the measles virus. Initial signs and symptoms typically include fever, often greater than 40 °C (104.0 °F), cough, runny nose, and inflamed eyes. Two or three days after the start of symptoms, small white spots may form inside the mouth, known as Koplik's spots. A red, flat rash which usually starts on the face and then spreads to the rest of the body typically begins three to five days after the start of symptoms. Symptoms usually develop 10–12 days after exposure to an infected person and last 7–10 days. Complications occur in about 30% and may include diarrhea, blindness, inflammation of the brain, and pneumonia among others...
Measles is an airborne disease which spreads easily through the coughs and sneezes of those infected. It may also be spread through contact with saliva or nasal secretions. Nine out of ten people who are not immune and share living space with an infected person will catch it. People are infectious to others from four days before to four days after the start of the rash...
The measles vaccine is effective at preventing the disease. Vaccination has resulted in a 75% decrease in deaths from measles between 2000 and 2013 with about 85% of children globally being currently vaccinated. No specific treatment is available...
Measles affects about 20 million people a year, primarily in the developing areas of Africa and Asia. It causes the most vaccine-preventable deaths of any disease. It resulted in about 96,000 deaths in 2013, down from 545,000 deaths in 1990.

Just a rash?? PPfffftttttt!!!!!

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RE: Autism and Vaccination - 5/31/2016 4:30:34 AM

Termyn8or

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Staleek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Measles fatal ? By what mechanism ? I thought it was pretty much just a rash.

T^T

Nooooo. Measles is quite a nasty customer. That rash is actually your own capillaries being damaged by serious inflammation and the release of nitric oxide as your body is takes a "scorched earth" approach in an effort to protect itself. This is a serious illness.

Firstly it is extraordinarily contagious. The secondary attack rate of measles is extremely high, upwards of 80% (flu is about 30%). If your immune system isn't aware of the disease and you are exposed to it there is a very high likelyhood you're going to get it.

Measles is pretty harsh on the first location it generally reaches - your lungs. What's worse it actually likes to take on your defensive cells such as macrophages and dendritic cells. Macrophages generally don't move around much as they're very big and like to hang out in one place, think of them as your immunity tank battalion. But your dendritic cells are like the special forces. They go almost everywhere, and they are the cells mostly responsible for identifying threats and keeping files on them (although macrophages do that too). The measles virus actually uses these cells to not only make more of themselves, but to hitch a ride right into your lymph nodes where there all of the other special forces like to hang (think of these as your immune systems barracks).

Your immune system is now under serious attack. And among the soldiers heading out to fight this enemy are infected cells, unwittingly spreading the virus further and further around the body.

Now a health immune system in a healthy human can generally win the battle given enough time. But during this time you have a compromised immune response, leaving you vulnerable to all sorts of other tiny assassins which want to get inside your lovely warm, wet and nutritious body.

One of the big risks associated with measles is encephalitis (brain inflammation). Dendritic cells, being absolutely vital for your survival and being the bodies principle foot soldier, have access to all sorts of high security areas of your body. If enough measles infected cells get through to your brain they can trigger inflammation in there. You know that horrible itchy rash on your arms and legs? Imagine it inside your skull!

Just a FYI - rashes are serious. We don't think of them as such because they come and go, but the mechanism by which many diseases kill (including Marburg and Ebola) is technically by rash. A rash basically is your body turning into a warzone to fight off an invader. If the battle is fierce enough the invader may well be vanquished but there are no buildings left standing afterwards.

Wow. One of these days we are going to have to have a serious discussion on the subject. You probably know more than anyone I know about it and that probably includes doctors.

T^T

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RE: Autism and Vaccination - 5/31/2016 4:54:43 AM

blnymph

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Most of the typical childhood diseases as mumps, measles, rubella, chickenpox are mostly harmless for children but can be serious for immunodepressed children.
And: the older one is the more severe they can get, with, at worst, fatal complications.

The advantage if you get those diseases as a kid of maybe less than 9 years old you are immune for life. And these diseases at that age are mostly harmless.

BUT: if one did not get those as a kid they can be really dangerous: rubella as well as mumps can seriously harm the fetus during pregnancy, mumps can cause encephalitis, deafness, and infertility in men.

Adolescents and adults who never had those diseases should get vaccine asap.

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RE: Autism and Vaccination - 5/31/2016 5:30:07 AM

Staleek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

Most of the typical childhood diseases as mumps, measles, rubella, chickenpox are mostly harmless for children but can be serious for immunodepressed children.
And: the older one is the more severe they can get, with, at worst, fatal complications.

The advantage if you get those diseases as a kid of maybe less than 9 years old you are immune for life. And these diseases at that age are mostly harmless.

BUT: if one did not get those as a kid they can be really dangerous: rubella as well as mumps can seriously harm the fetus during pregnancy, mumps can cause encephalitis, deafness, and infertility in men.

Adolescents and adults who never had those diseases should get vaccine asap.

I would advise against getting the chickenpox vaccine. The only people who should take that vaccine are pregnant women who have been exposed to someone with chickenpox within 24 hours of exposure. That's it. In particular children would be better off getting chickenpox and dealing with it as opposed to being vaccinated.

Varicella (what we all call chickenpox) is considered a childhood disease for good reason. There are routine epidemics all over the world, and the end result is the odd hospitalization, and a rare fatality, almost all of which are children as most of us adults have had the disease. It's pretty mild.

As an adult varicella becomes way way more serious. It is 20 times more likely to kill you as an adult and 15 times more likely to send you to the hospital as an adult.

So why shouldn't we get the vaccine?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa064040

http://www.mofirst.org/issues/vac/published_article_no_1.pdf

In a nutshell (if you look at fig 1 in the second study I linked) the vaccine grants a very short window if immunity to the virus. In other words the chickenpox vaccine doesn't protect you from it, it actually makes chickenpox more dangerous to you as it increases the chances of you contracting a more serious serious case as an adult. It actually protects you while the disease is (relatively harmless) and then that protection drops off as you become more and more vulnerable to the effects of the virus.

You can get boosters for the rest of your life, but if the vaccines are no longer effective against the chickenpox strain that is out there you're very likely to feel the full blown virus full force.

What's not generally understood about vaccines is that they aren't magic bullets for diseases. Some work marvelously and have saved more lives than can be counted. But some just aren't worth the trip to the hospital to get them. And if a vaccine actually makes a disease MORE likely to kill you then it's not a great idea.

< Message edited by Staleek -- 5/31/2016 5:32:35 AM >

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