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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:07:55 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

One is fatal, one isn't

Yet both cause fatalities.  Death is death - no matter how you look at it.  Both caused by different tools, both acts of man.  If you take it from your viewpoint, then we may as well say that Bin Laden is an innocent man, because his incitement is only the media after all....
 
(and you neglected to respond to the mugabe point)
 
Peace and Rapture


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:08:26 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		I would feel slightly easier about all this if I could just hear darkinshadows and Northerngent condemn the violence that occurred over that publication outright.  No buts, no reasons, no excuses.  Just a pure condemnation of the violence as unacceptable and wrong.

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(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:12:57 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

darkinshadows,

Full marks for persistence in trying to enlighten posters on the purpose and consequences of these cartoons. However, it may just be a bridge too far.

NorthernGent


Northerngent, anytime you disagree with someone, feel free to say how and why.  Sniping from the sidelines with no debating points at all is futile.

Don't worry, if you say something offensive to someone, I'm sure you won't be physically harmed for it. That's the beauty of true freedom of speech, you know.

There are others who have done the same thing - as you call - 'sniping from the sidelines' - how comes you do not react to them?
 
Are we singling out individuals now, just because they dont happen to agree with you?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou



Dear egomaniac,


 
Why is it impossible for people to respond without posting personal insults and name calling.  Whatever happened to adult discussion?  Are we still in the playground - seriously...
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:14:15 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I already did.  You just refuse to accept and see it.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:18:49 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Full marks for persistence in trying to enlighten posters on the purpose and consequences of these cartoons. However, it may just be a bridge too far.


You can't see the disrespect in that statement?

enlighten posters would implying we are unenlightened and he is the holder of truth,LOL. He does this in every thread. If you don't agree with him he writes you off us an unenlightened fool.

Says it's a bridge to far to cross. As if our intellectual abilities are so beneath his level of thinking as to make his ideas unreachable.

LOL, ok, I'm the child. He's been doing that crap since he arrived on the boards. Underhanded insults towards anyone that doesn't agree with him. I've hardly ever insulted somone but he makes a habit of disrespecting peoples intellingence in every thread.

Anyway, if he doesn't like it, maybe he shouldn't talk down to people.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:21:07 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

One is fatal, one isn't

Yet both cause fatalities. 
 
No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.
quote:

Death is death - no matter how you look at it.  Both caused by different tools, both acts of man.  If you take it from your viewpoint, then we may as well say that Bin Laden is an innocent man, because his incitement is only the media after all....
Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.
quote:

(and you neglected to respond to the mugabe point)
No.  I didn't.  Look back.
 



_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:21:18 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Anyway, if he doesn't like it, maybe he shouldn't talk down to people.
 
I believe a few people could heed that little snip of advice, Need.
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:24:45 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

EnglishDomNW,

You're desperately clutching at straws. Freedom of expression is about who should be afforded this freedom and what limits should be placed on this expression.

Beheadings etc is a reaction to an event and is not in anyway central to the merits and extent of freedom of speech.

My advice is to start a thread on beheadings and the muslim community if that's what is on your mind - I'm sure you'll have plenty of takers.

Alternatively, you could forget about the reaction in the Muslim community and respond to my original post which was a response to your thread title "Freedom of Expression" - i.e. the one saying freedom of speech should only be afforded to those who can use it with respect. Unless I have missed it I am yet to hear anyone really discuss this (with the exception of a couple of the subs on this thread). A response about beheadings and counter-threats is not required.

NorthernGent


What isn't required is twittish behaviour. You're building quite a history of not being willing or able to defend what falls out of your mouth. You pull this shit and I'm sure you think it's funny, while really, it's lame.

*winks at dark and grins in a mature way *

< Message edited by Level -- 7/22/2006 2:28:52 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:28:00 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.


They are all tools.  Publications, knives, guns, 27th C lazer beams... these are tools.  What people do with these tools is the effect.  The cause?  Humans.  The outcome?  Death and war.

quote:


Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.


Publications cause hatred - Bin Laden causes hatred.  Overt and covert.  If you dont understand that - you have no understanding of the power of media (and by media I am not talking newspapers but ALL media)  and thats a very scarey thing if you do not understand the power of advertising and marketing.
 
Why do you think the bible and the koran and the Book of Kells etc et al are so important?
THE POWER OF WORDS.
 
Peace and Rapture
 


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:35:14 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.


They are all tools.  Publications, knives, guns, 27th C lazer beams... these are tools.  What people do with these tools is the effect.  The cause?  Humans.  The outcome?  Death and war.


quote:


Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.


Publications cause hatred - Bin Laden causes hatred.  Overt and covert.  If you dont understand that - you have no understanding of the power of media (and by media I am not talking newspapers but ALL media)  and thats a very scarey thing if you do not understand the power of advertising and marketing.
 
Why do you think the bible and the koran and the Book of Kells etc et al are so important?
THE POWER OF WORDS.
 




The words don't kill anybody, it's the reaction TO those words. 

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/22/2006 2:36:50 PM >

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:42:47 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.


They are all tools.  Publications, knives, guns, 27th C lazer beams... these are tools.  What people do with these tools is the effect.  The cause?  Humans.  The outcome?  Death and war.


quote:


Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.


Publications cause hatred - Bin Laden causes hatred.  Overt and covert.  If you dont understand that - you have no understanding of the power of media (and by media I am not talking newspapers but ALL media)  and thats a very scarey thing if you do not understand the power of advertising and marketing.
 
Why do you think the bible and the koran and the Book of Kells etc et al are so important?
THE POWER OF WORDS.
 




The words don't kill anybody, it's the reaction TO those words. 

At last - you got my point - thank you.
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:44:09 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.


They are all tools.  Publications, knives, guns, 27th C lazer beams... these are tools.  What people do with these tools is the effect.  The cause?  Humans.  The outcome?  Death and war.


quote:


Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.


Publications cause hatred - Bin Laden causes hatred.  Overt and covert.  If you dont understand that - you have no understanding of the power of media (and by media I am not talking newspapers but ALL media)  and thats a very scarey thing if you do not understand the power of advertising and marketing.
 
Why do you think the bible and the koran and the Book of Kells etc et al are so important?
THE POWER OF WORDS.
 




The words don't kill anybody, it's the reaction TO those words. 

At last - you got my point - thank you.
Peace and Rapture



LOL have a good day.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:49:18 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.


They are all tools.  Publications, knives, guns, 27th C lazer beams... these are tools.  What people do with these tools is the effect.  The cause?  Humans.  The outcome?  Death and war.


quote:


Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.


Publications cause hatred - Bin Laden causes hatred.  Overt and covert.  If you dont understand that - you have no understanding of the power of media (and by media I am not talking newspapers but ALL media)  and thats a very scarey thing if you do not understand the power of advertising and marketing.
 
Why do you think the bible and the koran and the Book of Kells etc et al are so important?
THE POWER OF WORDS.
 




The words don't kill anybody, it's the reaction TO those words. 

At last - you got my point - thank you.
Peace and Rapture



LOL have a good day.

I always do....
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:52:27 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.


They are all tools.  Publications, knives, guns, 27th C lazer beams... these are tools.  What people do with these tools is the effect.  The cause?  Humans.  The outcome?  Death and war.


quote:


Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.


Publications cause hatred - Bin Laden causes hatred.  Overt and covert.  If you dont understand that - you have no understanding of the power of media (and by media I am not talking newspapers but ALL media)  and thats a very scarey thing if you do not understand the power of advertising and marketing.
 
Why do you think the bible and the koran and the Book of Kells etc et al are so important?
THE POWER OF WORDS.
 




The words don't kill anybody, it's the reaction TO those words. 

At last - you got my point - thank you.
Peace and Rapture



LOL have a good day.

I always do....
Peace and Rapture



Even when exploding newspapers break into your house and pretend to be Robert Mugabe?


(Sorry!)

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 2:58:38 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

No.  They don't.  Again.  Hopefully for the last time?  A newspaper does not cause fatalities. You can't die from looking at a cartoon, only from what people do in response to that cartoon. A cartoon does not break into your house.  A cartoon does not explode.  A cartoon is not a gun, it cannot kill you.  A cartoon is not Mugabe.  It's print.  In a newspaper.  The only way to die from it is by someones violent reaction to it.


They are all tools.  Publications, knives, guns, 27th C lazer beams... these are tools.  What people do with these tools is the effect.  The cause?  Humans.  The outcome?  Death and war.


quote:


Bin Laden sends people out to kill others, where did the Danish newspaper do that, dark?.  Bin Laden actively plans and sends his minions out to kill people.  A Danish newspaper, on top of everything else you've likened it to, is not Osama Bin Laden.


Publications cause hatred - Bin Laden causes hatred.  Overt and covert.  If you dont understand that - you have no understanding of the power of media (and by media I am not talking newspapers but ALL media)  and thats a very scarey thing if you do not understand the power of advertising and marketing.
 
Why do you think the bible and the koran and the Book of Kells etc et al are so important?
THE POWER OF WORDS.
 




The words don't kill anybody, it's the reaction TO those words. 

At last - you got my point - thank you.
Peace and Rapture



LOL have a good day.

I always do....
Peace and Rapture



Even when exploding newspapers break into your house and pretend to be Robert Mugabe?


(Sorry!)

Bwahahaha...
 
Neither would be permitted in this house...
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 3:02:32 PM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		Anyway, since everyone seems to agree that the cartoons were unnecessary, inflammatory and stupid and that the violent response to them was (at least) the same, the entire debate seems to be exhausted.  NorthernGent, excuse my rudeness, if you had a different point about freedom of speech you wanted to make, go right ahead.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 4:11:28 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows 
There are cartoons or articles that are intended to mock people.  I am not speaking or refering to those.  Then there are cartoons or articles intended to provoke violence.  If someone provokes you verbally and you end up hitting them because of what they say - I see no difference in your act to the provoker.
 
This logic is used to defend quite a lot of physical abuse ... one party's words provoked the other party to violence.
 
The proper response to words, is words in return. The proper response to these cartoons, would have been cartoons in return.
 
You cannot put the burden on someone, not to "say or write" something that will provoke violence. How are you supposed to know in advance what the is? Even if intent is obvious, to go down this slippery slope is just to give any nut case a built in defense for doing the things that nut cases do.
 
If you don't like what someone says, then say something back. If you take it to the next level in retaliation ... that becomes your burden.
 
Just my opinion.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/23/2006 12:32:51 AM   
Lilmissbossy


Posts: 81
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		darkinshadows, the bottom line is that nobody has the right to use violence over something that offends them, especially a stupid cartoon.  Religion is no excuse.

< Message edited by Lilmissbossy -- 7/23/2006 12:56:50 AM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/23/2006 3:07:02 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I completely agree caitlyn - there is no excuse for violence.  But there is no excuse for inflamming violence either.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/23/2006 3:22:23 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

darkinshadows, the bottom line is that nobody has the right to use violence over something that offends them, especially a stupid cartoon.  Religion is no excuse.

Have you read the entire thread?  Of course there isnt any right to use violence - (how many times does one have to say it?) - but there is equally no right for someone to provoke violence - and admit it - either.
 
What I am finding more concerning throughout this thread, is the lack of understanding people seem to have about the power of words/and or pictures.  Marketing and advertising play a huge part of our lives - and yet people do not seem to show the same respect to words as they would to a gun.
 
Without words, there would be people today who we simply wouldn't know existed - because they relied on the power of media to carry their messages.  We are on a message board where people are typing - because the words, and the images, are passing over who we are... If words aren't so powerful, why even bother coming here ?
We participate in BDSM, where some of us thrive on words, on gestures of pleasure (like smiles, hugs, a simple spank etc) to know we are pleasing someone - some thrive on name calling - and some people participate on the message board knowingly trying to wind certain individuals up or to gain the response they want by manipulating conversations.  Some use the forum, to advertise themselves - to sell what they have to give.  And some do it to try and turn people off a certain activity, incite hate of a section of peoples whos kink isnt their kink.
 
If people really have no concept - no understanding of just how much power there is behind words/images/photographs/paintings - that to me is a more scarey aspect of society than a gun could ever be.
 
The pen is, after all, mightier than the sword...
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lilmissbossy)
Profile   Post #: 140
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