RE: Freedom of Expression

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Freedom of Expression

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Freedom of Expression

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:38:07 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Yes, we agree to disagree - but you have picked out a key issue on Freedom of Expression, which is your thread after all. If one truely wants freedom of expression to be a basic human right - one has to take human rights issues into consideration - One does not exist without the other, else there would be anarchy.

quote:

Any propaganda for war and any advocacy of national, racial, or religious hatred that constitute incitements to lawless violence or to any other similar action against any person or group of persons on any grounds including those of race, color, religion, language, or national origin shall be considered as offenses punishable by law.

It is firing the first bullet and not hitting someone - then blaming the other side for inflicting the first casualty.

Peace and Rapture

'Constitutes incitement to lawless violence' in the context cited above, is a phrase with a specific meaning...distorting that meaning is no different than crying 'rape', or 'murder', when none has occured.

Labelling something that does not meet the elements of the crimes above, as a crime, merely because you disagree with it, or someone else disagreed with it, (even if their disagreement was expressed violently), does no one a service.

In fact, one could point out that it is an attempt to legitimize the violence...and why would anyone want to do that?

Because people do. Not because of religion, or out of a sense of democracy or out of patriotism. Those are excuses - it also gives humans the chance to lay blame on someone they dont understand nor even want to. Most humans live for conflict. It isnt the gun that kills people, the gun is only the tool - Just like words or images or some cartoons. People kill people. That's what you get with Freedom of Expression without thought for basic human rights and the respects for fellow man/woman. If you want FoE - you have to accept that your going to tred on toes - and be responsible enough to accept the consequence of your actions.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 81

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:40:46 AM

SCORPIOXXX

Posts: 223
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline

General reply to all...

If your religious beliefs are so strong that you feel obliged to commit murder in the name of your so-called and alleged god: jump off the face of the earth and go live with your bloody damned god -- so the restof us can live in peace! This is true for all religious zealots, regardless of race, gender, creed or color...

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 82

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:49:13 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

If you want FoE - you have to accept that your going to tred on toes - and be responsible enough to accept the consequence of your actions.

Much like a woman who wants to enjoy the freedom to dress provocatively needs to learn to accept the consequences of being raped?

Or a black person who wants to enjoy the freedom to talk back to whites needs to learn to accept the consequences of being lynched?

Those who killed in reaction to the cartoons (and those cartoons in no way, shape or form called for violence against Muslims) were criminals, and their excuses are as unsatisfying as their actions are indefensible.

I thought I detected a heavy whiff of 'blame the victim' in there.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 83

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 8:55:24 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

That isnt what I said and I would appriciate you not taking words and twisting them - dressing provocatively or your interpretation of black and white is a total side step of the issue and I am not into pissing contests. Hold a decent discussion and I will bite - but dont play the fool and try to twist words that arent there. What I originally posted supported your previous statement earlier in the thread, if you bothered to read them instead of embarking on misinterpreting others words.

Peace and Rapture

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 7/22/2006 8:56:09 AM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 84

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 9:55:53 AM

EnglishDomNW

Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Indeed it doesn't. Any murder in my opinion, isn't acceptable. Nor are images that incite hatred of any kind.

Indeed. And should you ever find yourself in a position of choosing between viewing an offensive cartoon or being beheaded, I'm sure you will quickly decide they aren't "equally evil" after all.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/22/2006 10:17:50 AM >

_____________________________

"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 85

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 10:35:40 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Actually EnglishDom, if I considered it a matter of principle, they can have my head any time... there are some things worth facing death for. Honour, Principle, Duty and Loyalty come to mind.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

Post #: 86

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 10:39:28 AM

EnglishDomNW

Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Actually EnglishDom, if I considered it a matter of principle, they can have my head any time... there are some things worth facing death for. Honour, Principle, Duty and Loyalty come to mind.

I'm not sure you're on the same page, it wasn't a point of honour or principle, it's a definition of which is more evil - publishing an offensive cartoon or beheading someone. If you see those two things as equally evil, I'm afraid you'll be waiting a long time for me to agree.

The actual act of publishing a cartoon, no matter how inflammatory, isn't directly taking another person's life. Only the response to that cartoon was.

Considering the overall intention of the cartoon was to portray the violence within sections of the Muslim world, I'd pretty much think the case was proven by what followed its publication.

A similarly offensive picture of the Christian God published in a UK newspaper brought about the reaction of people writing to the editor of the newspaper and complaining. By the reckoning of some people on here, that same woman would be within her religious rights to have cut off his head instead.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/22/2006 10:52:06 AM >

_____________________________

"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 87

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 11:03:46 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

No twoof us will see what we believe in enough to die for in the same light. I would for principle. I would not allow any group of people to tell me what I can or can not view.. That is the principle. At this level the original dispute about the ofensiveness or not is immaterial.. Also on principle when I discovered that some publication to be running down any religion, the only reason I may read it was to make an informative decision about it. Regarding pictures they wouldn't interest me.. But that would be my choice and my decision and not due to any external preasure group.... I expect no oneto agree with me I am just stating my beliefs and opinion on the matter and especially your reply to darkinshadows.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/22/2006 11:06:10 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

Post #: 88

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 11:05:35 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

That isnt what I said and I would appriciate you not taking words and twisting them - dressing provocatively or your interpretation of black and white is a total side step of the issue and I am not into pissing contests. Hold a decent discussion and I will bite - but dont play the fool and try to twist words that arent there. What I originally posted supported your previous statement earlier in the thread, if you bothered to read them instead of embarking on misinterpreting others words.

Peace and Rapture

Backpedaling at that speed can only end badly...
What you said is very well recorded...you just don't want to be associated with your own words, once the illogic behind them is pointed out, so you now claim that they were twisted.
So let's just put the refusal to hold a decent discusion squarely where it belongs...in your lap.

You clearly said that the cartoonist was a criminal, even going so far as to post a section of the law they supposedly violated, and you portrayed the actual violent killers as the victims of incitement of violence against them.

Reality does not match up to your statements, and none of us are under any sort of obligation to deny reality, just to suit your claims of victimhood (either your claims that the violent Muslims were the victims, or your new claim that you are a victim).

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 89

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 11:36:36 AM

EnglishDomNW

Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

No twoof us will see what we believe in enough to die for in the same light. I would for principle. I would not allow any group of people to tell me what I can or can not view.. That is the principle. At this level the original dispute about the ofensiveness or not is immaterial.. Also on principle when I discovered that some publication to be running down any religion, the only reason I may read it was to make an informative decision about it. Regarding pictures they wouldn't interest me.. But that would be my choice and my decision and not due to any external preasure group.... I expect no oneto agree with me I am just stating my beliefs and opinion on the matter and especially your reply to darkinshadows.

But it's not a question of what you would DIE for, that's a seperate issue altogether. It's a question of what people are willing to KILL for and whether that is somehow excusable on the grounds of religious sensibilities.

As an example - If killing someone because they've offended you was acceptable behaviour, almost everyone on this message board would have the right to commit mass murder. We all get offended by something without resorting to ending someone's life over it.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/22/2006 11:41:20 AM >

_____________________________

"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 90

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 11:53:00 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows My interpretation was that he agreed with you on the US point, and thats why He didnt feel the need to continue as you were basically reaching the same goal - even if the paths were a little different.

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. That is twice in this thread where you have demonstrated you do not have the foggiest of clues what is going on.

quote:

I really didnt see how He 'hates' you - again, I havent read the racism thread so I have no idea on the history between any of you there - I am simply working on this thread and prefere not to be clouded by other threads(even though someone is trying to desperately get me to be) - and again, you are completely correct, disagreement isnt hate - and I respect you deeply for your wisdom on knowing the difference between disagreement/discussion and others trying to incite arguments. Maybe I can see links between the posts that maybe others can't see. Or maybe I am just having a bit of wishful thinking and playing the part of peacemaker...

Peace and Rapture

AGAIN!!. I am not the one trying to drag you into anything for pete's sake. :@ You asked a question, two people gave you the answer. For someone who wants "peace" you sure are walking down the wrong path. Annoying the shit out of people and making false accusations does not muster peace.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 7/22/2006 12:01:07 PM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 91

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 11:55:41 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

As far as this justified murder goes, nothing justifies murder. Not even a cartoon. If you do not like it, suck it up. Get over it. It will not kill you. Chances are someone does not like the words that fall out of your face either, but I do not see them killing you. A cartoon is simply that. It is powerless on it's own unless YOU give it power. So do exactly the opposite. Ignore it and it will go away.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 92

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:05:29 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

Alumbrado,

Your quote:

Many Europeans may very well be aware of that, but you yourself, cannot be aware of what the intentions of the cartoonist were, unless you are a mindreader.

If that is indeed the case, I know a nice man named Randi who is holding 1 million US dollars in escrow, just especially for you.

If on the other hand, you are just ascribing motives to the cartoonist, then your point is not validated until we know for sure the real motives.

The fact that someone took offense at a published work is far too tenuous a connection to support the hanging of labels on the originator.

Yes, it goes without saying that I can not be 100% certain what the motives of the cartoonist was/is. But, you can make a judgement based on the available evidence. The last cartoon was a picture of a muslim with a bomb in his head-dress. Also, there is a climate of anti-muslim sentiment in Europe at the moment. The cartoons were then printed in Conservative newspapers with an agenda. Now, you can make of that what you will. My opinion is, at the very best that is bad manners and a complete lack of respect, at the worst it is implying muslims are terrorists and intended to stir up racial tension.

Basically, freedom of speech should only be afforded to those who can use it with respect - that is the mark of a truly civilised society. I refer back to my earlier post - if this kind of sensationalist rhetoric goes unchecked it is dangerous.

darkinshadows,

I think we're pretty much on the same wavelength here. As you say, it is about respect and good manners. Being able to say anything to anyone is not civilised and not democratic because a democratic society would have a governing body in place to censor it's citizens at the right time for the good of wider society.

meatcleaver,

The intellectuals you talk of were a minute element of German society. The population of Germany today is about 80 million so then probably 50/60 million. My point was German Jews were well integrated within German society and Hitler gained support because of his military aims not because of his racial theories. If you're still struggling then refer to my earlier post. If it doesn't sink in then refer to Ian Kershaw. He is widely recognised as the leading historian on Nazi Germany and German/Jewish relations. Get hold of one of his books and it will tell you all you need to know about German Jews and the rise of the Nazi Party during the inter-war years. Any good bookshop will help you or you can find a link on the internet.

NorthernGent

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 93

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:10:03 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

Am I the only one getting the impression that for some posters the real point of this thread is to condemn the response from the muslim world? You shouldn't bother masquerading the discussion as one of freedom of expression.

"Let's bash muslims" would be a far more apt and suitable thread for some on here.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 94

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:16:59 PM

EnglishDomNW

Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Am I the only one getting the impression that for some posters the real point of this thread is to condemn the response from the muslim world? You shouldn't bother masquerading the discussion as one of freedom of expression.

"Let's bash muslims" would be a far more apt and suitable thread for some on here.

Where does anybody bash Muslims, Northerngent, besides in your imagination.

Show me those postings please?

_____________________________

"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 95

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:22:32 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

EnglishDomNW,

Read back. The various posts on beheading, religious fanatacism. You'll see in this in some of your own posts.

Freedom of expression - good topic to discuss. Enlighten me on what beheadings has to do with freedom of expression (the name of the title thread remember).

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

Post #: 96

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:23:44 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows My interpretation was that he agreed with you on the US point, and thats why He didnt feel the need to continue as you were basically reaching the same goal - even if the paths were a little different.

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. That is twice in this thread where you have demonstrated you do not have the foggiest of clues what is going on.

quote:

I really didnt see how He 'hates' you - again, I havent read the racism thread so I have no idea on the history between any of you there - I am simply working on this thread and prefere not to be clouded by other threads(even though someone is trying to desperately get me to be) - and again, you are completely correct, disagreement isnt hate - and I respect you deeply for your wisdom on knowing the difference between disagreement/discussion and others trying to incite arguments. Maybe I can see links between the posts that maybe others can't see. Or maybe I am just having a bit of wishful thinking and playing the part of peacemaker...

Peace and Rapture

AGAIN!!. I am not the one trying to drag you into anything for pete's sake. :@ You asked a question, two people gave you the answer. For someone who wants "peace" you sure are walking down the wrong path. Annoying the shit out of people and making false accusations does not muster peace.

As you just want to rip phrases left right and centre - it is worth pointing out that, seeing as the person the quotes you used above where to and in response to actually got and understood what I was saying (and understand humour) - unlike yourself (as usual, Level is just as His name implies and is a very honourable man who is able to hold such discussions without having to resort to belittling anyone). Again - trying to twist others words to fit your own agenda isn't particularly honourable.

Whatever happened to the love Kenin?

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 97

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:29:06 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows My interpretation was that he agreed with you on the US point, and thats why He didnt feel the need to continue as you were basically reaching the same goal - even if the paths were a little different.

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. That is twice in this thread where you have demonstrated you do not have the foggiest of clues what is going on.

quote:

I really didnt see how He 'hates' you - again, I havent read the racism thread so I have no idea on the history between any of you there - I am simply working on this thread and prefere not to be clouded by other threads(even though someone is trying to desperately get me to be) - and again, you are completely correct, disagreement isnt hate - and I respect you deeply for your wisdom on knowing the difference between disagreement/discussion and others trying to incite arguments. Maybe I can see links between the posts that maybe others can't see. Or maybe I am just having a bit of wishful thinking and playing the part of peacemaker...

Peace and Rapture

AGAIN!!. I am not the one trying to drag you into anything for pete's sake. :@ You asked a question, two people gave you the answer. For someone who wants "peace" you sure are walking down the wrong path. Annoying the shit out of people and making false accusations does not muster peace.

quote:

As you just want to rip phrases left right and centre - it is worth pointing out that, seeing as the person the quotes you used above where to and in response to actually got and understood what I was saying (and understand humour) - unlike yourself (as usual, Level is just as His name implies and is a very honourable man who is able to hold such discussions without having to resort to belittling anyone). Again - trying to twist others words to fit your own agenda isn't particularly honourable.

Whatever happened to the love Kenin?

Peace and Rapture

Where is a blunt object when I need one?

quote:

am simply working on this thread and prefere not to be clouded by other threads(even though someone is trying to desperately get me to be)

Who is the "someone" you were referring to? Just for the sake of argument I will play stupid here.

Incidentally, who said anything about "love"? Do you see anything about love in My signature? I see "Hi. I don't care. Thanks". And I am sticking to it. Talk about trying to put words in people's mouthes, how about you take your own advice?

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 7/22/2006 12:30:59 PM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 98

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:31:12 PM

EnglishDomNW

Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

EnglishDomNW,

Read back. The various posts on beheading, religious fanatacism. You'll see in this in some of your own posts.

I'm not sure what your point is here, would you prefer me to say that no section of the Muslim community ever called for beheadings? If so, why?

quote:

Freedom of expression - good topic to discuss. Enlighten me on what beheadings has to do with freedom of expression (the name of the title thread remember).

Because people threatened to behead those that expressed what they conceived to be their freedom of expression in a Danish newspaper, haven't you been reading along?

_____________________________

"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 99

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/22/2006 12:41:01 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Hello English.

I really feel there is a breakdown in communication here.

There are cartoons or articles that are intended to mock people. I am not speaking or refering to those. Then there are cartoons or articles intended to provoke violence. If someone provokes you verbally and you end up hitting them because of what they say - I see no difference in your act to the provoker. If someone breaks into your property and you defend it with violence and murder... I see no difference in the behaviours - they are just coming from different angles. Possibly I would side on the violence in that case as you are defending yourself and your property from the provocation - but both are abhorant to me. As IB spoke of - it is about honour, principle, duty and loyalty.

quote:

But it's not a question of what you would DIE for, that's a seperate issue altogether. It's a question of what people are willing to KILL for and whether that is somehow excusable on the grounds of religious sensibilities.

This is where I think you have misunderstood me. No one is claiming that killing is excusable based on religious reasons. Its painful and abhorant and causes suffering. But there is media out there provoking OR giving religious fundementalists the excuse to attack - on purpose. The cause can be just as painful and abhorant as the effect. It's the whole mentality of poisoning opinion. It does happen. The danish cartoons incited - the arabic ones incited - the cause = the effect. One is the silent gun, the other is the one that makes the noise.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)

Post #: 100

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Freedom of Expression

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.111