RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (Full Version)

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blnymph -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/14/2016 2:05:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

hate speech is rather clearly defined, as precisely as possible


I read the English versions of the wikipedia articles you mentioned. Hatred, even in the most elegantly worded law documents, eludes a definition that cannot be contested. The concept of incitement fares only marginally better.

Stoicism for the people and cynicism towards kings; I think that the suppression of speech, particularly of unpopular views is much more dangerous than its opposite, and I trust people not to sink to their basest urges when their ears and mouths are free as I trust governments not to rise to their highest ideals when granted the power to control the same.


Your trust in people not to sink to their basest urges is nice and humane and I would enjoy sharing your hope and trust.

What I see and read is proof to the opposite - there are people LOVING to sink to their basest urges ... look around and see for yourself.




Staleek -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/14/2016 3:19:07 AM)

On the other hand we have the Republican candidate basically saying he intends to destroy freedom of speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9PCPtcsgnc




thishereboi -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/14/2016 3:30:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Then you haven't been reading all the posts I have. I've seen them called murderers, thieves and racists. Queer seems kinda tame. Offensive yes, but still tame compared to the others.


Poor you, did you get called out on supporting racist comments........ It aint a question because I know you did. [8|]






No, actually I didn't. I responded to a comment that queer was the worst thing he had heard on here. Not sure where you got that from and I would ask for a link to clear it up, but I have done that enough times to know you won't bother. But since you brought up lying, ever find that post where you claimed I said something I didn't? Ya didn't think so. Now run along and lets see what other bullshit you can come up with.




ManOeuvre -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/22/2016 7:53:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre


I read the English versions of the wikipedia articles you mentioned. Hatred, even in the most elegantly worded law documents, eludes a definition that cannot be contested. The concept of incitement fares only marginally better.

Stoicism for the people and cynicism towards kings; I think that the suppression of speech, particularly of unpopular views is much more dangerous than its opposite, and I trust people not to sink to their basest urges when their ears and mouths are free as I trust governments not to rise to their highest ideals when granted the power to control the same.


Your trust in people not to sink to their basest urges is nice and humane and I would enjoy sharing your hope and trust.

What I see and read is proof to the opposite - there are people LOVING to sink to their basest urges ... look around and see for yourself.


Thank you, Nymph. One of the components of that trust, humane as you see it, is to neither infringe upon anyone's capacity to speak, nor to abdicate my own discretion as to what I may hear or read to a higher authority.

Tell me then, who would you trust to make that decision on your behalf? To determine what you are and aren't allowed to read or listen to? Is there anyone more qualified than yourself?




blnymph -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/22/2016 8:48:28 AM)

Oh in fact I feel very comfortable with regulations in Germany as they are.
Society as a whole has benefited from them for a long time. There is a concept of "wehrhafte Demokratie" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie for more) that has a few flaws in detail but has helped to keep extremism at bay. It might be an illusion but it helps urging politicians to do their job a bit more effectively than elsewhere.

In private I can do, read, listen to, think whatever I want. If someone fancies to re-establish the NSDAP for instance that person certainly has to face some consequences. Similar consequences I might face for trying to overthrow "Grundgesetz" Art. 1 and 20 covering human rights (all others are negotiable the usual parliamentary way), and for preparing crimes like genocide, including distributing propaganda to achieve those. I feel no desire to do anything like that so I feel none of my wishes, desires, rights restricted in any way.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/22/2016 9:46:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
...so I feel none of my wishes, desires, rights restricted in any way.

I think this is where the US and the rest of the world part company.

They are sooo distrustful of those they elected to govern them that they cling to an ancient parchment that was contrived with provisions for the populace to defend itself from tyranny.
They have lived with paranoia and fear for soo long that it has become a 'natural' way of life for them.
They have no trust in anyone or anything except the gun in their hand and their big bad mouths.

In reality, those of us that live in a much more peaceful environment, have much more confidence in our elected officials to do what is best for the country as a whole; and that's what scares the shit out of them.
They really can't see beyond the end of a gun barrel.
That's also why they will never be able to comprehend a life where they let elected governments do their job instead of eyeing them with extreme suspicion right from the time they cast their ballots.

They brag that it's their 'freedom'.
I see it as a population cowering in a self-imposed corner, with no trust, and with only their 'freedom' to scratch and growl at those feeding them.
Such a waste of humanity.




blnymph -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/22/2016 10:43:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
...so I feel none of my wishes, desires, rights restricted in any way.

I think this is where the US and the rest of the world part company.

They are sooo distrustful of those they elected to govern them that they cling to an ancient parchment that was contrived with provisions for the populace to defend itself from tyranny.
They have lived with paranoia and fear for soo long that it has become a 'natural' way of life for them.
They have no trust in anyone or anything except the gun in their hand and their big bad mouths.

In reality, those of us that live in a much more peaceful environment, have much more confidence in our elected officials to do what is best for the country as a whole; and that's what scares the shit out of them.
They really can't see beyond the end of a gun barrel.
That's also why they will never be able to comprehend a life where they let elected governments do their job instead of eyeing them with extreme suspicion right from the time they cast their ballots.

They brag that it's their 'freedom'.
I see it as a population cowering in a self-imposed corner, with no trust, and with only their 'freedom' to scratch and growl at those feeding them.
Such a waste of humanity.


Well I can only guess but I think one of the major problems within the US democracy is the electoral system. A pure majority vote in a population of hundreds of millions results in the votes of 49.9999--- % on whatever level including presidential elections are lost and not represented for years. The executive, legislative, judicative powers appear too inter-dependent and rather blocking than well balancing each other. When the only option to choose from is a "Scylla or Charybdis" party structure "Free speech" can be as "unrestricted free" as you ever like when it doesn't matter at all. A purely representative voting system like Germany had before 1933 has different major flaws but there are compromises which work rather well without the disadvantages of either model.




ManOeuvre -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 11:58:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I think this is where the US and the rest of the world part company.

They are sooo distrustful of those they elected to govern them that they cling to an ancient parchment that was contrived with provisions for the populace to defend itself from tyranny.
They have lived with paranoia and fear for soo long that it has become a 'natural' way of life for them.
They have no trust in anyone or anything except the gun in their hand and their big bad mouths.

In reality, those of us that live in a much more peaceful environment, have much more confidence in our elected officials to do what is best for the country as a whole; and that's what scares the shit out of them.
They really can't see beyond the end of a gun barrel.
That's also why they will never be able to comprehend a life where they let elected governments do their job instead of eyeing them with extreme suspicion right from the time they cast their ballots.

They brag that it's their 'freedom'.
I see it as a population cowering in a self-imposed corner, with no trust, and with only their 'freedom' to scratch and growl at those feeding them.
Such a waste of humanity.


fd1, the tendency to to identify people's basest possible motivations as the correct ones is unbecoming.

I have travelled extensively throughout the US, and have worked alongside American citizens overseas. Aside from a slightly unsavoury (to me) propensity towards religiosity, I have never seen an American comport himself with anything other than integrity and gallantry as the situation demanded. While I wouldn't accuse the average yank of being particularly worldly, and they tend towards being monoglots, I have found that the stereotype of the ugly American, with his fast food, revolver on his hip, drawl his on lip and arrogance on his mind to be just that, a stereotype.

There is no doubt that those people exist, but they are not in the majority and I think you would do well to keep to aim your communication, and perhaps even your commentary at the demographic most capable of meeting you eye to eye, rather than the obese daytime talk-show audiences and southern baptist click-bait youtube ignoramuses.

I think you'll find that outside of the occasional standup routine, Americans largely refer to and address citizens of the UK in terms of respect for their best, and not derision for their worst. That Americans choose not to talk about the least savoury aspects of UK society is not, I think for lack of material.

I think the darkest sign in American society today is in fact the trend, currently expressing itself in the academy and slowly leaking into wider society, of knocking free speech down from its deserved primacy in favour of speech codes designed to protect people's feelings, and this is something that much of western Europe has a similar problem with.

Nymph, I'd like to understand your position with respect to the question I asked earlier. Based on your response, can I say that you place your trust in some authority outside of yourself to determine what you can and cannot read or hear?




WhoreMods -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 11:59:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre
fd1, the tendency to to identify people's basest possible motivations as the correct ones is unbecoming.

But also correct a lot of the time, sadly.




ManOeuvre -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 12:18:05 PM)

Are you sure, WM? I can not imagine how to be certain of that without mind-reading.

How deeply would you have to analyze someone to be confident in that assertion? Sometimes people tell you their motivations, sometimes they're even truthful about it. Most of the time they don't and we're left guessing. Educated guesses for sure, but certainly not perfect, and I think that we'll get a higher quality of discourse if we are a touch more charitable in our interpretations of others' motivations.




blnymph -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 12:19:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre


Nymph, I'd like to understand your position with respect to the question I asked earlier. Based on your response, can I say that you place your trust in some authority outside of yourself to determine what you can and cannot read or hear?


Quite on the contrary. Due to my studies I am experienced in accessing informations that the general public is usually unaware of even existing. The way you put it your question is rather abstract, and as such, my answer is plainly: no I dont and what I can and do read/hear is not restricted. Do you have anything specific "determined by whatever authority" in mind?





Politesub53 -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 12:20:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cinnamongirl67

What is your problem?
I know you speak English. Quit talking in poems and metaphors. Is it possible for you to stop your shit? Totally gets on my nerves. Be a man for heavens sake.
Are you queer or what?




More homophobia from the sock. [8|]




thompsonx -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 1:16:46 PM)


ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre


I asked earlier. Based on your response, can I say that you place your trust in some authority outside of yourself to determine what you can and cannot read or hear?

Haven't the courts shown that there are absolute limits on free speech?




WhoreMods -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 1:35:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Are you sure, WM? I can not imagine how to be certain of that without mind-reading.

How deeply would you have to analyze someone to be confident in that assertion? Sometimes people tell you their motivations, sometimes they're even truthful about it. Most of the time they don't and we're left guessing. Educated guesses for sure, but certainly not perfect, and I think that we'll get a higher quality of discourse if we are a touch more charitable in our interpretations of others' motivations.

People are quite often casually malicious, lacking in imagination and somewhat mean spirited. The notion that reprehensible behaviour is spawned by such base motives isn't too much of a stretch, sadly.




ManOeuvre -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 3:27:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
Quite on the contrary. Due to my studies I am experienced in accessing informations that the general public is usually unaware of even existing. The way you put it your question is rather abstract, and as such, my answer is plainly: no I dont and what I can and do read/hear is not restricted. Do you have anything specific "determined by whatever authority" in mind?




What I meant by my question:

Given that the slightest restriction on free speech also constitutes, by extension not only the restriction on the speech, writing, broadcast, publication, mailing, etc, but also practically a restriction on the consumption, or reception of that information.

Your right to write may never be infringed upon if you elect never to write anything, but your right to read very well may be if another's right to write is so infringed.

What I'm asking you is this:

Who, other than yourself, would you trust to arbitrate which speech you may listen to?




ManOeuvre -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 3:44:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


People are quite often casually malicious, lacking in imagination and somewhat mean spirited. The notion that reprehensible behaviour is spawned by such base motives isn't too much of a stretch, sadly.


I think the difference between "are quite often" and "are" makes all the difference here. I certainly would not argue that there are no such people, and I have no way of knowing whether they are even in the majority. If you don't regard yourself as a part of the casually malicious, leadless pencil demographic (and few people do) then the principal of the online discussion forum would best be served by granting the benefit of the doubt in each interaction.

In doing so, one can appeal less to our pithecan sides, and try to keep things to the front of the brain.




ManOeuvre -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 4:03:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Haven't the courts shown that there are absolute limits on free speech?


Can you think of a phrase nobody should be allowed to utter? A work so unfit for print that society should jail the man who prints it?

I can think of a few that would come close, but even in the most extreme cases, I think it would be cheating for a society to play that joker instead of an ace.

At their very worst, these unutterable phrases or unprintable pages are bad ideas, very bad indeed. Without a better idea to counter them with, I think it’s a very hollow victory to counter a bad idea with another bad idea: censorship.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 5:43:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I will bet you can get closer to the number of states we have than Obama, his guess was 59.

Actually, Bama, Dumbo-Ears said there were 57 states (the exact number of Muslim Nations on the global map, back then).


Actually, you're both wrong. His claim was 60.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws
    quote:

    "...over the last 15 months, we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in fifty [pause] seven states. I think one left to go. One left to go; Alaska and Hawaii I was not allowed to go to..."


So, 50....7 (57), one left to go (58), Alaska (59) and Hawaii (60) was not allowed to go to.

[:D]

Bit harsh to give Obama shit over that one, as his predecessor couldn't have counted higher than twenty without taking his strides off to count on his cock as well as his fingers and toes.
[:D]
Cite? Other than your opinion? YouTube footage? Newspaper coverage? MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC?






thishereboi -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 6:32:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
...so I feel none of my wishes, desires, rights restricted in any way.

I think this is where the US and the rest of the world part company.

They are sooo distrustful of those they elected to govern them that they cling to an ancient parchment that was contrived with provisions for the populace to defend itself from tyranny.
They have lived with paranoia and fear for soo long that it has become a 'natural' way of life for them.
They have no trust in anyone or anything except the gun in their hand and their big bad mouths.

In reality, those of us that live in a much more peaceful environment, have much more confidence in our elected officials to do what is best for the country as a whole; and that's what scares the shit out of them.
They really can't see beyond the end of a gun barrel.
That's also why they will never be able to comprehend a life where they let elected governments do their job instead of eyeing them with extreme suspicion right from the time they cast their ballots.

They brag that it's their 'freedom'.
I see it as a population cowering in a self-imposed corner, with no trust, and with only their 'freedom' to scratch and growl at those feeding them.
Such a waste of humanity.



And yet only a third of them actually own a gun. But go ahead and picture us cowering behind our guns. It's kinda amusing to see how wrong other people can be about the folks who live here.




thompsonx -> RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech (6/23/2016 7:05:01 PM)

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Haven't the courts shown that there are absolute limits on free speech?


Can you think of a phrase nobody should be allowed to utter? A work so unfit for print that society should jail the man who prints it?

The courts have.





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