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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 6/24/2016 4:33:18 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


People are quite often casually malicious, lacking in imagination and somewhat mean spirited. The notion that reprehensible behaviour is spawned by such base motives isn't too much of a stretch, sadly.


I think the difference between "are quite often" and "are" makes all the difference here. I certainly would not argue that there are no such people, and I have no way of knowing whether they are even in the majority. If you don't regard yourself as a part of the casually malicious, leadless pencil demographic (and few people do) then the principal of the online discussion forum would best be served by granting the benefit of the doubt in each interaction.

In doing so, one can appeal less to our pithecan sides, and try to keep things to the front of the brain.

Actually, I'm well aware of just how reprehensibly I can behave under the right circumstances myself, and that's what I'm speaking from, not suppositions about everybody else being a shit.
(I think it's "pithecine", btw.)

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 3:26:45 PM   
ManOeuvre


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I suppose I haven't interpreted your posts in the best possible light. I am sorry about that.

With respect to pithecine or pithecan, I've though of one as a noun which can work as an adjective, and the other as purely adjective. I can't seem to find any reason online as to why I've thought this for the last couple of decades. It's very possible I've been using the wrong word.

I happen to like the way it sounds. To my ear it comes across as mid-atlantic ending in a vowel. It seems like Martin would say pithecan while his sons, the Drs Crane would say pithecine.

Maybe someday when the anglosphere slows in its rollin' we can erect one of those official language academies like our more consistent continental cousins.

Until then, when dealing with words on the fringes of my vocabulary, so very distant from the terms of discourse I find crucial to the human condition, I just have to hope that you know what I mean. Seems to me, I was right.

quote:



ORIGINAL thompsonx

Can you think of a phrase nobody should be allowed to utter? A work so unfit for print that society should jail the man who prints it?

The courts have.



thompsonx, I'm going to take your word for it.

My question was to you (the forum folks, or you, thompsonx), though. Can you think of a phrase nobody should be allowed to utter, or a work so unfit for print that society should jail the man who prints it?

If the courts have, and I have no reason to think you're deceiving me when you assert that they have, are you comfortable with the idea of the courts making this sort of decision for you?

I can think of a few situations that would come close, and a few that are on the borderline of what is information/speech and what is tangible material, whether these go against the public good, etc, but it seems to me that the threshold for public harm would have to be very very high, and much higher than simply hatred.

< Message edited by ManOeuvre -- 7/4/2016 3:29:29 PM >

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 3:58:21 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL thompsonx



Haven't the courts shown that there are absolute limits on free speech?


Can you think of a phrase nobody should be allowed to utter? A work so unfit for print that society should jail the man who prints it?

The courts have.


thompsonx, I'm going to take your word for it.

Why take my word for it???t is a mater of public knowlede the specifics of which may be found on line.

My question was to you (the forum folks, or you, thompsonx), though. Can you think of a phrase nobody should be allowed to utter, or a work so unfit for print that society should jail the man who prints it?

I remain unconvinced that the court may have erred in this area.

If the courts have, and I have no reason to think you're deceiving me when you assert that they have, are you comfortable with the idea of the courts making this sort of decision for you?


When rape is inevitable try to get comfortble, spit on it and don't for get to breath."

I can think of a few situations that would come close, and a few that are on the borderline of what is information/speech and what is tangible material, whether these go against the public good, etc, but it seems to me that the threshold for public harm would have to be very very high, and much higher than simply hatred.


Do you think everyone should be able to make speed or atomic weapons? Just two of the things that the courts say only certain people are allowed to know.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 7/4/2016 3:59:54 PM >

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 6:55:54 PM   
ManOeuvre


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Status: offline 		I don't want to misunderstand your position. Just to be clear, are you giving the following as an example of an unutterable or unprintable phrase?

quote:


thompsonx
When rape is inevitable try to get comfortble, spit on it and don't forget to breathe.


If so, I'm curious as to why you think so.

If that's not an example, I'm curious as to why you'd write it.

If that is an example, I'm curious as to why you'd write something you consider unwritable. I'm not trying to 'gotcha' you or anything....

With respect to the transmission of information which can be used to cook meth or to make nuclear weapons, I think you're dealing with two very different situations.

In the case of meth, that cat has been out of the bag for a decade.

Anyone with access to youtube has access to all the information necessary to make the drug.

In the case of atomic weapons, I think it is unreasonable to think that at this stage in our technological development, that it is simply the lack of knowledge that prevents nuclear proliferation. The difficulty and tremendous material costs for obtaining and refining the materials is, I think the main obstacle, other than the semi-effective political effects from the NPT, etc. I think it is unreasonable also to expect that principles of physics, which of course can be derive, if with difficulty, could be effectively concealed indefinitely, even if that was the object of a large political bloc.

I don't think you were referring to a dirty bomb, since these could be made from basic redneck/ISIS homemade explosives and some materials that could be easily stolen from a hospital. If you know what a dirty bomb is, and you have a bomb, you have all the knowledge required.

I was thinking along similar lines to your meth concept, but with something that can cause significantly more harm, such as a recipe that's easier than cooking meth, using only household ingredients and himalayan rock salts that makes a nerve agent 100 times worse than VX poison.

Should it be illegal to transmit knowledge of such a recipe and process? Even then, we're talking about chemistry, not someone's diary contents - it may be a secret for now, but as a basic scientific principle, destroying every copy wouldn't suppress it indefinitely.

Besides, I think the costs, social and material to enforcing a ban on knowledge of physics or chemistry would be a cure worse than the disease.

I was also thinking of information that exists somewhat on the border between information and something more tangible, like computer code.

It seems to serve to public interest to prevent people from knowably infecting other's computers with malicious software, i.e. viruses, but what do you think should be the legal status of publishing the source code of a virus? Particularly a virus that hasn't yet been added to the various anti-virus software libraries? I think it is a very tough question.

What if someone published the gene that codes for a protein rendering e. coli unaffected by the latest and greatest antibiotics? This information isn't hard to come by on the internet, though it does take slightly more than a google search, and a few basic skills that I won't describe here.

Come to think of it, a truly anti-palindromic viral genome might be something of a brown note, given that antisense treatment would be by definition ineffective. Should I be injured in some way just for putting that knowledge out there? **

The speed and range of information propagation seems to be on the increase, and there is no reason to doubt this trend will continue.

** Note: .desserpxe eb ton dluow dna ,esnesitna nwo sti sa noitcnuf dluow ti ,erew ti fi neve dna ,lanoitcnuf eb ot ylekilnu ylgnideecxe si ,eno lariv a neve ,emoneg cimordnilap-itna ylurt A

< Message edited by ManOeuvre -- 7/4/2016 6:57:16 PM >

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 7:15:43 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Can you think of a phrase nobody should be allowed to utter,

"Between you and I . . . ."

More seriously, there's the classic example--from Justice Holmes, I think--about falsely yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

I also also think there needs to be some sort of accountability for false accusations, especially of rape and child molestation. Not only do they damage the person wrongfully accused, but they can make it harder for genuine victims of sexual abuse to be heard and believed.

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 7:40:46 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

More seriously, there's the classic example--from Justice Holmes, I think--about falsely yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Turns out I need to rethink that one.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 7:51:58 PM   
thompsonx


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I don't want to misunderstand your position. Just to be clear, are you giving the following as an example of an unutterable or unprintable phrase?


thompsonx
When rape is inevitable try to get comfortble, spit on it and don't forget to breathe.


No

If so, I'm curious as to why you think so.

I don't.

If that's not an example, I'm curious as to why you'd write it.

Response to previous question.

If that is an example, I'm curious as to why you'd write something you consider unwritable. I'm not trying to 'gotcha' you or anything....


It was my curious way of saying that when the courts have spoken it is best not to phoque with them.

With respect to the transmission of information which can be used to cook meth or to make nuclear weapons, I think you're dealing with two very different situations.

In the case of meth, that cat has been out of the bag for a decade.


I the state of california simple possession of the formulea is a felony unless authorized by law. So while the cat is out of the bag it is against the law to pet it.

Anyone with access to youtube has access to all the information necessary to make the drug.

I should think that any public offer to commit a felony that stayed up would be published only by law enforcement.

In the case of atomic weapons, I think it is unreasonable to think that at this stage in our technological development, that it is simply the lack of knowledge that prevents nuclear proliferation. The difficulty and tremendous material costs for obtaining and refining the materials is, I think the main obstacle, other than the semi-effective political effects from the NPT, etc. I think it is unreasonable also to expect that principles of physics, which of course can be derive, if with difficulty, could be effectively concealed indefinitely, even if that was the object of a large political bloc.

They have been pretty effective for about 70 years

I don't think you were referring to a dirty bomb, since these could be made from basic redneck/ISIS homemade explosives and some materials that could be easily stolen from a hospital. If you know what a dirty bomb is, and you have a bomb, you have all the knowledge required.

We remain unconvinced of the vallidity of that premise.


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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 7:57:01 PM   
ManOeuvre


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I agree wholeheartedly that there needs to be more accountability with respect to false statements.

Of course, libel and slander take up some of that slack, but I think you are right in that double damage is done to society when false accusations occur. Perhaps Hammurabi had it right.

I think the same thing goes for the sharing of information subject to NDAs, security clearances, trade secrets, professional confidentiality, etc, and I would certainly not object to society and the market bearing down upon the speaker or writer with the full reprimandative and penal force of whichever of their elective agreements they have broken.

I was hoping someone would bring up the "Fire!" in a crowded theatre case. The lynchpin of that case seems to me the notion that for the speech to be deemed not lawfully protected, it would have to be determined to be both harmful AND false.

One of the several points of pride I take in being mostly Canadian is that there are the following defences specifically laid out in section 319 of the criminal code, which specifically deals with hate crimes.


(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.

I'm very proud for A, C and D. I think my country could do without B, actually.

I mean, I happen to think the entire hate speech legislation thing is bunkum, but I'm happy to see a silver lining now and then.

I certainly would not argue that there is no such thing as harmful speech. To give one example from my own life, students and professionals in the biological sciences have very good reasons to believe certain things about what most people call "ethnicity", but can really only have very bad reasons to say them. While I would never disseminate this sort of information publicly, and generally decline to discuss it privately, I certainly don't want to live in a world where a colleague of mine could be imprisoned for publishing or speaking something that is true. I happen to think it's a cure rather worse than the disease.

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 8:09:45 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I was hoping someone would bring up the "Fire!" in a crowded theatre case. The lynchpin of that case seems to me the notion that for the speech to be deemed not lawfully protected, it would have to be determined to be both harmful AND false.

The Atlantic piece I linked to is fascinating. Folks, including me, have misapplied that quote for ages. I learn something every day!


quote:

I mean, I happen to think the entire hate speech legislation thing is bunkum, but I'm happy to see a silver lining now and then.

I certainly would not argue that there is no such thing as harmful speech. To give one example from my own life, students and professionals in the biological sciences have very good reasons to believe certain things about what most people call "ethnicity", but can really only have very bad reasons to say them. While I would never disseminate this sort of information publicly, and generally decline to discuss it privately, I certainly don't want to live in a world where a colleague of mine could be imprisoned for publishing or speaking something that is true. I happen to think it's a cure rather worse than the disease.

I'm largely of the same mindset. For speech truly to be free, it has to cover all manner of deplorable utterances.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 8:21:31 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


It was my curious way of saying that when the courts have spoken it is best not to phoque with them.

I see. Poetry then?

quote:


I the state of california simple possession of the formulea is a felony unless authorized by law. So while the cat is out of the bag it is against the law to pet it.


I don't want to misunderstand you. Are you stating that it is a felony to possess information on how to cook meth? That's how I read your post. I think that's how most readers would read your post, though I may be mistaken.

thompsonx, I don't think I'm going to take your word for this one. Would you mind pointing me to where I can find information on this law?

< Message edited by ManOeuvre -- 7/4/2016 8:27:08 PM >

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 8:25:50 PM   
dcnovice


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I thought of another phrase, which I see a lot on Facebook: "recorded live."

Either it's recorded, or it's live. Pick one.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 8:27:53 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I thought of another phrase, which I see a lot on Facebook: "recorded live."

Either it's recorded, or it's live. Pick one.


Tangentially speaking, on a podcast I listen to called "Tangentially Speaking" the host made precisely that comment.

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 8:30:19 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Tangentially speaking, on a podcast I listen to called "Tangentially Speaking" the host made precisely that comment.

Smart man.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 9:05:11 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


When rape is inevitable try to get comfortable, spit on it and don't forget to breathe."


It was my curious way of saying that when the courts have spoken it is best not to phoque with them.



Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I was mistaken.

By the way, thompsonx, I appreciate your response format. The plain for the call and bold your responses. While I find we disagree, your format helps to keep track of the points of contention and where they stand.

I can certainly understand the idea with respect to the inevitable, etc. I suppose closing one's eyes and thinking of England is a better way to play it than being a legislative power-bottom.

I think some people have enough fire in them yet to come up against a Lockean type dilemma, and the need to make a choice. The Snowden case is I think a good example of this. I don't want to express whether I think his actions were right or wrong, but it seems to me that he made a conscious decision to disclose something he was contractually obligated not to for what he believed is the greater good.

I think the best bet, not for encouraging such rebellion, but for encouraging such rebellion in the direction of humanity's interests is to educate subsequent generations on the importance of questioning objectively whether a given proposition, whether on the dullest paper or most regal vellum, is true.

I also think this can only be done when the channels of speech have exactly zero roadblocks.

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 9:25:29 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Manoeuvre
In the case of atomic weapons, I think it is unreasonable to think that at this stage in our technological development, that it is simply the lack of knowledge that prevents nuclear proliferation. The difficulty and tremendous material costs for obtaining and refining the materials is, I think the main obstacle, other than the semi-effective political effects from the NPT, etc. I think it is unreasonable also to expect that principles of physics, which of course can be derive, if with difficulty, could be effectively concealed indefinitely, even if that was the object of a large political bloc.

They have been pretty effective for about 70 years



I disagree that it has been pretty effective, but I guess that depends on what you mean by "pretty". Two countries that hate each other over a real estate dispute that is only partially terrestrial now have nukes aimed at each other's population centre, one country that is hated by most of its neighbours most likely has nukes pointed in every direction, and one country with a 3rd generation despot may have nukes pointed at the countries that send the rice bags that feed their people.

While I think the NPT is a great idea, I wouldn't call it a smashing success story. I also think that the major barrier to a functional nuclear armament is not the tight control (or lack thereof) of physics knowledge, but the fact that the cost of obtaining and producing the materials and equipment necessary to produce a working devise are prohibitively expensive and immensely conspicuous.

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 9:32:33 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:



ORIGINAL: Manoeuvre
I don't think you were referring to a dirty bomb, since these could be made from basic redneck/ISIS homemade explosives and some materials that could be easily stolen from a hospital. If you know what a dirty bomb is, and you have a bomb, you have all the knowledge required.

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We remain unconvinced of the validity of that premise.



< Message edited by ManOeuvre -- 7/4/2016 9:41:37 PM >

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/4/2016 10:19:09 PM   
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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/5/2016 3:17:46 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: thompsonx


It was my curious way of saying that when the courts have spoken it is best not to phoque with them.

I see. Poetry then?

poorly written.

I the state of california simple possession of the formulea is a felony unless authorized by law. So while the cat is out of the bag it is against the law to pet it.


I don't want to misunderstand you. Are you stating that it is a felony to possess information on how to cook meth? That's how I read your post. I think that's how most readers would read your post, though I may be mistaken.

thompsonx, I don't think I'm going to take your word for this one. Would you mind pointing me to where I can find information on this law?


That torturous road would be linked to criminal conspiracy laws which allow a prosecutor to pile up charges(the purpose of which is to engender a "plea bargain") Say some "chemist" is caught cooking, the "perp" is charged with perhaps a dozen or so crimes related to this one crime. "The knowledge to manuacture contraband is in itself prima-facia evidence that one intends to commit said crime and as such is itself a crime".

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/5/2016 3:41:22 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I thought of another phrase, which I see a lot on Facebook: "recorded live."

Either it's recorded, or it's live. Pick one.


Tangentially speaking, on a podcast I listen to called "Tangentially Speaking" the host made precisely that comment.


the "live" in "recorded live" typically refers to the nature of the performance, that is, its done in one shot raw in front of an audience and without script, as opposed to an unabashed studio performance in which edits and do-overs occur.





< Message edited by bounty44 -- 7/5/2016 3:43:41 AM >

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RE: Left Folks and their notions of Free Speech - 7/5/2016 4:36:20 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre
ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I thought of another phrase, which I see a lot on Facebook: "recorded live."

Either it's recorded, or it's live. Pick one.


Tangentially speaking, on a podcast I listen to called "Tangentially Speaking" the host made precisely that comment.


the "live" in "recorded live" typically refers to the nature of the performance, that is, its done in one shot raw in front of an audience and without script, as opposed to an unabashed studio performance in which edits and do-overs occur.




Did you really think any of the adults on this board did not know that?

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