RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (Full Version)

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Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 10:30:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
The value of reduced firearms deaths at the price of rendering law-abiding citizens more subject to assaults, muggings and rapes, seems debatable.


Do you have the stats on non-gun owners having more assaults, muggings, and rapes visited upon them than gun owners? Or the former being less law-abiding than the latter?

Just curious.







Kirata -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 10:52:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The value of reduced firearms deaths at the price of rendering law-abiding citizens more subject to assaults, muggings and rapes, seems debatable.

Do you have the stats on non-gun owners having more assaults, muggings, and rapes visited upon them than gun owners? Or the former being less law-abiding than the latter?

Just curious.

I had this in mind:

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).

On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was "used" by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004).


Source: National Research Council

K.




BamaD -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 10:59:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
The value of reduced firearms deaths at the price of rendering law-abiding citizens more subject to assaults, muggings and rapes, seems debatable.


Do you have the stats on non-gun owners having more assaults, muggings, and rapes visited upon them than gun owners? Or the former being less law-abiding than the latter?

Just curious.





Cops have a crime rate that is only 10% of the crime rate of the general population. CCW holders have a crime rate that is 10% of the rate for cops.




BamaD -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:06:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The value of reduced firearms deaths at the price of rendering law-abiding citizens more subject to assaults, muggings and rapes, seems debatable.

Do you have the stats on non-gun owners having more assaults, muggings, and rapes visited upon them than gun owners? Or the former being less law-abiding than the latter?

Just curious.

I had this in mind:

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).

On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was "used" by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004).


Source: National Research Council

K.


Bloomberg has (although it has now been removed from his site) admitted to over 500,000 defensive firearms uses per year. Considering his groups inclination to cook the books against gun owners this has to be considered the absolute mininum number. It should also be remembered that the number of defensive uses is grossly underreported. If the badguy sees you are armed ans runs screaming into the darkness what is the point of reporting it? Actuall occurance, not a what if fantasy.




Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:27:38 PM)


Pardon me for not looking this up, but the preponderance of 'gun defense' stories I come across in reading the news involves convenience store robbery attempts. I know this occurs in the home sometimes, but it's difficult to recall the last one I read about. I can't recall any instance of a person on the street saving themselves from disaster by that expedient, though I'm sure it might have happened once or twice.

BTW, were the statistics cited limited to the US, or across a survey of several countries?

Two days ago, I had to help this 90-something yr. old (white) lady through the check out at the grocery store. She could just barely slide her card through the swipe slot in the first place, and then kept hitting the 'credit' option where she read it on the screen, rather than the physical button just to the right of it.

I had attention to the matter in the first place from witnessing some black guy go through the same routine with her last time I was there.

Her purse and wallet were available for ten different people to steal, all the time.

There is no way, no how, a woman as shaky as that could ever handle a firearm.

And in a county of 54% black people, she seems to survive, easy a 'mark' as she is.






Termyn8or -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:32:23 PM)

It is up to the People who CAN handle a gun to protect those who cannot, because the police cannot be everywhere.

T^T

(edited because of a really stooopid mistake, go ahead and laugh but you didn't see it, I beat you to it ! LOL)




Dvr22999874 -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:33:01 PM)

I have to admit that since the firearms ban in this country, everybody seems to creep around in mortal fear of being robbed, mugged, assault, raped and murdered in their beds kirata. Bring back hanging and the garrotte I say !!!!!
What a load of old cobblers.




RottenJohnny -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:41:05 PM)

FR

Why is it that every time the boards get crazy with gun debates I feel the urge to buy a .50 cal sniper rifle just to see how many rounds it takes to cut down an oak tree from a thousand yards?




Dvr22999874 -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:43:25 PM)

I agree RJ..................let the U.S. walk it's own patrol, just as every other country is allowed to do. We have gun restrictions here; big deal. You don't have those restrictions; that's fine too.




Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:46:50 PM)


A howitzer is better for that.

Or, should I say;

"A howitzer provides more freedom than a .50 caliber sniper rifle."




Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:57:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

It is up to the People who CAN handle a gun to protect those who cannot, because the police cannot be everywhere.

T^T

(edited because of a really stooopid mistake, go ahead and laugh but you didn't see it, I beat you to it ! LOL)


Termy, a lady or a man in that condition doesn't get to the store and back on a weekly basis by grace of having concealed carry guards every step of the way.

Or, even if that were the case in this country, that certainly isn't the case in 100 other countries.




BamaD -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/14/2016 11:59:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I agree RJ..................let the U.S. walk it's own patrol, just as every other country is allowed to do. We have gun restrictions here; big deal. You don't have those restrictions; that's fine too.

This is the flip side of what I keep saying.
If those in Austrailia and the UK are happy with thier gun laws fine, I am not going to insist they should change them. And they should return the curtesy, you seems to be about the only one willing to do that.




Dvr22999874 -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 12:04:27 AM)

Thanks Bama..............Basically, this argument should be purely between you and your countrymen and countrywomen. It's got to the stage where chauvinism seems to creeping in ( in it's original meaning) and never was one for waving a flag. I just don't like people pointing a finger at me and saying I am wrong because I don't think along the same lines as them.




Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 12:10:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

It's got to the stage where chauvinism seems to creeping in ( in it's original meaning) ...


Oh, careful there!

Next thing you know, somebody might insist we use the term 'conservative' in its original meaning!




Dvr22999874 -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 12:18:04 AM)

gods forbid that should happen Edwird *smile*. I have to admit that I am neither.................I am a 'CGAS' and as much as possible, I try to walk my own patrol.




Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 12:21:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874
I try to walk my own patrol.


That's a great way of putting it!

Fifty less words than I would.

I knew you Aussies were good for something!




Dvr22999874 -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 12:21:23 AM)

In England they have a conservative party that is far from conservative, a labour party with members of parliament that have never worked and over here we have a liberal party that gives nothing and takes all. It's all bastardised, isn't it ? *smile*




Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 12:26:19 AM)


My youth might have been better served by reading more Oz lit than Brit lit.

But we all have to live with our mistakes.





Edwird -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 12:30:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

In England they have a conservative party that is far from conservative, a labour party with members of parliament that have never worked and over here we have a liberal party that gives nothing and takes all. It's all bastardised, isn't it ? *smile*



Indeed it has.




thishereboi -> RE: International study of gun control finds strong evidence it works (6/15/2016 3:24:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


Pardon me for not looking this up, but the preponderance of 'gun defense' stories I come across in reading the news involves convenience store robbery attempts. I know this occurs in the home sometimes, but it's difficult to recall the last one I read about. I can't recall any instance of a person on the street saving themselves from disaster by that expedient, though I'm sure it might have happened once or twice.

BTW, were the statistics cited limited to the US, or across a survey of several countries?

Two days ago, I had to help this 90-something yr. old (white) lady through the check out at the grocery store. She could just barely slide her card through the swipe slot in the first place, and then kept hitting the 'credit' option where she read it on the screen, rather than the physical button just to the right of it.

I had attention to the matter in the first place from witnessing some black guy go through the same routine with her last time I was there.

Her purse and wallet were available for ten different people to steal, all the time.

There is no way, no how, a woman as shaky as that could ever handle a firearm.

And in a county of 54% black people, she seems to survive, easy a 'mark' as she is.





Here ya go...took less than a minute to find one

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2015/06/09/detroit-home-invaders/28728493/





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