RE: Brexit Vote Results

RE: Brexit Vote Results (Full Version)

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bounty44 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:10:53 AM)
just to cut through the stuff that, while not unimportant, is really superficial to what I see as underlying--- isn't the brexit vote more or less an example of the tension that exists between the collectivists and the conservative/libertarian types, writ large?

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:17:05 AM)
Not really, no. If the vote had been carried out on practicalities and the philosophical implications of the voters' ideoloigies that might apply. As things actually played out, though, not so much. Have a look back over some of the bizarre ranting in this very thread and you'll soon see that this wasn't any sort of debate about collectivism. The ideology (if you can call it that) that concerned what little debate their was is much simpler and less abstract.

Greta75 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:18:59 AM)
FR I shall just enjoy the mass hysteria for now. I can't wait till 1 year later, to say, "I told cha this is all left scare mongering propaganda" when all the dust settle down and they fix things. By the way, that Cameron dude is really a pussy because first of all, if he is against Brexit, why the hell did he call for a referendum, and then it backfires, why is he quitting when he started this whole mess that he didn't want in the first place? He should take responsibility of it and ensure a smooth transition! If a First World Nation like the UK cannot survive on it's own feet, something is seriously wrong with it! If a tiny nation like ours can stand on our own feet with zero natural resources. UK should be capable enough of taking care of themselves. I just find the doom and gloom so ridiculous! It never once occur to me that UK can't take care of themselves. And it can now choose all the good EU policies and keep them, and throw out all the policies of EU that they don't like. Independence. I think it's a great thing.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:26:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 just to cut through the stuff that, while not unimportant, is really superficial to what I see as underlying--- isn't the brexit vote more or less an example of the tension that exists between the collectivists and the conservative/libertarian types, writ large? To an extent. Further political integration and the question of sovereignty has been cited as the most important factor in people's decisions. That is according to opinion polls, not what the four people on here who refuse to accept the result have to say. Now of course, it is not in their interests to concede this because it would ruin their argument that 17 million people are stupid and racists. Two other important factors were uncontrolled immigration and a complete distrust of politicians both British and European. There were many, many other factors - but those are the three most oft cited. My instinct was to vote Leave because the EU was always intended to be a political and legal union and that is the way it is going and talk has accelerated among the EU bureaucrats now that we are out of the way. I voted Remain in the end because speaking with people up here, there was a lot of bitterness and anger at our politicians, most of whom supported remaining in the EU, and they simply did not trust them and it was a chance to even a few scores - people who know the history of this area might understand. Now, to me, I felt that a Leave vote was going to be based upon too many negatives rather than an opportunity to show ambition and imagination. In short, I felt that perhaps this country wasn't ready to grab the opportunity. Having seen the bitterness and the contempt shown by some sections of the Remain camp, and it's not just these four on this board, it's going on throughout the country; I wish I'd gone with my instinct and voted Leave. Not that it made any difference because people in my area voted leave 60/40.

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:27:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze If you saw Farage's speech, he just insulted basically all the MEPs, that's going to bode well for a great trade deal. I'm actually very very worried that we soon have a Crystall Nacht, I have 3 rescue Dobies (all from UK rescues, born and bred here) and just been told to get "English dogs", just a few teenagers who possibly yell what they have heard somewhere, but all over the place things are kicking off. Still, some idiots deny it Just saw this: http://www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-now-german-woman-hit-by-xenophobia-calls-james-in-tears-132971 Our corner shop is closed, can't imagine why... But hey. there's no problem with racism in this country... GB isn't going to hell in a hand basket. There will be a miracle and all of a sudden the industries will pop out of the ground... Doesn't take decades to build them... Farage has got the arse because Spode hasn't immediately offered him a cabinet seat in his new Conservative government. (You'd say that this is caution on Spode's part because he knows that Theresa May and possibly Jeremy Rhyming-Slang are challenging him for the leadership, but since when does he do caution?) That's irrelevant anyway, because we can't even start discussing a trade deal until we've set leaving in motion, and that can't happen without a new PM who's willing to accept responsibility for activating article 50. It's actually been pretty funny watching the Brexit massive's response to Cameron refusing to do that and walking out of the situation leaving somebody else to get stuck doing that. Beats taking a shit in your desk drawer when you quit your job any day, doesn't it?

Greta75 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:28:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer We have racist incidents exploding all over the country, now. Of course Brexit wasn't just about the immigration issue and of course not all Brexiteers were racists but the fact is the racists feel legitimised by the referendum result. Personally, this is the result of the facist left shutting down the feelings of people who feel like their own culture is being threatened by foreign cultures, by dismissing them as racist or xenophobic and belittling them. To me, it's just another form of bullying, and when you push the people that frequently get bullied so much, they break and push back and this is what happens, some snap and react in violence. Doesn't mean it is right. Anybody who uses violence should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. But the funny shit is, left argues this same thing about Islamophobia, that the more we paint Islam in a bad way, the more Muslims will get pissed off and wish more violence upon us. But same thing, the more you paint the right leaning folks in a bad way, the more they get piss off and feel like they have no solution but to express themselves in violence. Personally, I am for total freedom of speech, but go all hell on prosecuting anybody who reacts in violence. We need to finally be in a mature world where we can have opposite ends difference of opinions and beliefs which does not have to result in violence.

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:30:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 By the way, that Cameron dude is really a pussy because first of all, if he is against Brexit, why the hell did he call for a referendum, and then it backfires, why is he quitting when he started this whole mess that he didn't want in the first place? He should take responsibility of it and ensure a smooth transition! The referendum was an election promise that one of the idiot factions in his party bullied him into doing. He doesn't want to be stuck with the responsibility for the Brexit, so he's leaving the mess in their hands, though to be fair, he did state beforehand that he was resigning if the referendum resulted in us leaving the EU.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:32:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods Not really, no. If the vote had been carried out on practicalities and the philosophical implications of the voters' ideoloigies that might apply. As things actually played out, though, not so much. Have a look back over some of the bizarre ranting in this very thread and you'll soon see that this wasn't any sort of debate about collectivism. The ideology (if you can call it that) that concerned what little debate their was is much simpler and less abstract. What I think happened is that people thought it was a vote against Cameron, they are now cheering that he resigned. Unfortunately they didn't think who comes next and that they just handed over total power to the Tories. Leave claimed that leaving would be keeping the NHS, now they admitted it's not. A bit like people waking up from a bad hangover and going "WTF have we done?" A lot of people are now realising that there is a massive economic impact. A really scary byproduct is that the racists think everybody who voted leave is on their side and they're all over the place and very very loud. To sit and wait on article 50 is actually even worse for the economy because of the uncertainty, so businesses are just protecting their assets.

PeonForHer -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:33:24 AM)
quote: What do you mean by 'exploding'? You make it sound like the Columbian 50 years civil war. OK, well, maybe 'explosion' was an exaggeration. Let's call it a 'wave of hate crimes', per the Independent's headline. quote: Americans here are not getting a balanced view from you four. quote: People in this country, in the working class areas, have many, many concerns; and yes, some of these relate to immigration. But then, which country doesn't have have concerns over immigration? They certainly do in Germany and France and everywhere else in Europe - are they all racists? quote: Now of course the great paradox is while you four would have people believe that you're so liberal, you don't trust working class people who voted to leave. You, general you, think they're stupid and racist, and you, general you, have stated you will not accept the result. You refuse to accept that people don't agree with you and have labelled them uniformed, misinformed, stupid and racist. Firstly, one of the things that's come strongly to the fore, for me, is that there's a North/South divide regarding how people have felt about this referendum. I get that there are concerns amongst northerners - even those who've always considered themselves socialists - regarding immigration. In general, I think it'd be reasonable for anyone to take a tour of Sunderland and think 'this has gone badly wrong'. They might well blame our national government for not caring, and the EU for also not caring - locked as they both are in a neoliberal worldview. But, I think it's now becoming clear: we're not going to change that worldview just by trying to run away from it - even if that were possible. Secondly, though - yes, I do indeed believe that there was a lot of stupidity and racism behind the Brexit vote. You can invoke the 'snobbery' charge if you like (though my mother isn't working class, but is racist and this was the main reason for her voting for Brexit - a little btw, there) ... but, hell, NG - do you seriously deny that the results, now, can suggest anything else? I mean - a 'Greater Britain', when the country's economy is going down the pan, 'Britain' itself may well cease to exist in the near future and even an entire professional political class that's falling apart? When you talk of 'accepting the result' - No, I'm not prepared to see my country collapse because of this referendum. That is true. But you and others seriously misunderstand what 'democracy' and 'liberal' mean if you think that just over one half of a nation's population get free rein to inflict such damage, without opposition, on just under one half of the population - not to mention my country - simply because of this referendum. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:40:17 AM)
To be honest, anybody who was stupid enough to believe Spode saying that the money that won't be going to the EU will go into the NHS instead deserves whatever they get. I mean seriously, what kind of fuckwit thinks that the hardcore monetarist wing of the Conservatives are interested in increasing spending on public services? They'd have to be a lot smarter to qualify as cretins. And if you're worried about the racist dickheads currently doing victory dances and braying, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait and see how the retarded little cunts start carrying on when it turns out that leaving the EU won't have much of an impact on immigration at all. That's when the trouble will really kick off...

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:44:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer (though my mother isn't working class, but is racist and this was the main reason for her voting for Brexit - a little btw, there) I'd suggest not using your Mother, who is middle class and racist by your own admission, as a barometer to gauge public opinion among the Leave vote. In the interests of Mother's, my Mother who is working-class and certainly isn't racist, she's very charitable actually; voted Leave on this issue of immigration and windfarms and the like. She couldn't care less where people come from, could be China, Brazil, Pakistan, New Zealand; but her major concern was that she's a nature lover, loves the countryside - and sees it being eroded.

WhoreMods -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:45:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I mean - a 'Greater Britain', when the country's economy is going down the pan, 'Britain' itself may well cease to exist in the near future and even an entire professional political class that's falling apart? "Shitain: the Disunited Kingdom"?

LadyConstanze -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 5:52:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods To be honest, anybody who was stupid enough to believe Spode saying that the money that won't be going to the EU will go into the NHS instead deserves whatever they get. I mean seriously, what kind of fuckwit thinks that the hardcore monetarist wing of the Conservatives are interested in increasing spending on public services? They'd have to be a lot smarter to qualify as cretins. And if you're worried about the racist dickheads currently doing victory dances and braying, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait and see how the retarded little cunts start carrying on when it turns out that leaving the EU won't have much of an impact on immigration at all. That's when the trouble will really kick off... Trust me, the whole Boris bus, I thought that is when people will wake up... There were Labour people who didn't even check into the founding of Labour Leave, gosh, the Tories founded that... Pointed it out to them and they told me it makes no difference. That's when I started wondering if we're devolving as a species. As for racism getting worse, thank f*** I'm moving away, a cracked cheekbone is enough. A friend of mine further south has some darker pigmentation, she was told to eff off, because obviously must be a foreigner, she said her parents were born here, her grandma is from Trinidad. I lived in a lot of different countries, I have never seen anything like that and if you would have told me a year ago how this is going to pan out, I would have laughed and said that the thing about the UK I really like is the multicultural aspect and how curry is a national dish.

PeonForHer -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 6:10:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer (though my mother isn't working class, but is racist and this was the main reason for her voting for Brexit - a little btw, there) I'd suggest not using your Mother, who is middle class and racist by your own admission, as a barometer to gauge public opinion among the Leave vote. In the interests of Mother's, my Mother who is working-class and certainly isn't racist, she's very charitable actually; voted Leave on this issue of immigration and windfarms and the like. She couldn't care less where people come from, could be China, Brazil, Pakistan, New Zealand; but her major concern was that she's a nature lover, loves the countryside - and sees it being eroded. I haven't at any point characterised the entire Brexit support as 'racist'. Not all Brexiteers are racist ... but I'm willing to bet most racists are Brexiteers. However the pro-Brexit campaign was laced so heavily with anti-immigration arguments that stank of racism that the goose-stepping turds we see helping to make up that 57% increase of hate crimes since the referendum feel vindicated. As for my mother - ah, well ... with her, you have the southern, lower-middle-class, more purely Farage, type. Not the same character. She lives in a village in Surrey that has, so far as I've been able to make out, just one family of immigrants - the Sikh family that run the post office. (And my mother likes them - but, for her, 'they're not like other Indians' [natch].) But, then, there's another typicality: some of the most fervent Brexit-voting areas also have very low numbers of immigrants. I love the countryside, too - I like hiking and climbing. I don't see it being eroded by immigrants, though. What point are you making here?

PeonForHer -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 6:13:53 AM)
quote: Personally, this is the result of the facist left shutting down the feelings of people who feel like their own culture is being threatened by foreign cultures, by dismissing them as racist or xenophobic and belittling them. Far out. Well, given - IIRC - that you're ethnically non-Caucasian - if you were to visit Britain right now, I'd suggest that you'd reserve choice epithets like 'fascist' for the people who'd be looking to beat you up, not the ones who'd want to prevent that happening.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 6:23:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Personally, this is the result of the facist left shutting down the feelings of people who feel like their own culture is being threatened by foreign cultures, by dismissing them as racist or xenophobic and belittling them. Far out. Well, given - IIRC - that you're ethnically non-Caucasian - if you were to visit Britain right now, I'd suggest that you'd reserve choice epithets like 'fascist' for the people who'd be looking to beat you up, not the ones who'd want to prevent that happening. Personally I would hurry to call the police if I would see that happening to her, once I made myself a cuppa and a sarnie, I need to grow the pickles for the sarnie first though

Staleek -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 6:36:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze It's only 52% home grown idiots who caused it You've gotta laugh. 17 million people are idiots because they didn't agree with this woman. No. They're idiots because they voted to leave the EU. Whether LadyConstanze even exists or not is irrelevant to the reason these people have been such self-destructive moronic simpletons. What I want to know is this, why were they allowed to vote? If I want to drive a car, I have to pass a basic competency test. If i want to do SCUBA, I need to pass an aptitude test. If I want to practice medicine I need a medical degree. The ability to vote, clearly, has the potential to fuck up millions of lives. Why do we allow any knuckle-dragging mouth-breather to do it? What's wrong with a voting license, with a basic aptitude and political awareness test. I know that stupid people would, obviously, object to being disenfranchised. But it's for the same reason kids aren't allowed matches that they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 7:14:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Staleek quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze It's only 52% home grown idiots who caused it You've gotta laugh. 17 million people are idiots because they didn't agree with this woman. No. They're idiots because they voted to leave the EU. Whether LadyConstanze even exists or not is irrelevant to the reason these people have been such self-destructive moronic simpletons. What I want to know is this, why were they allowed to vote? If I want to drive a car, I have to pass a basic competency test. If i want to do SCUBA, I need to pass an aptitude test. If I want to practice medicine I need a medical degree. The ability to vote, clearly, has the potential to fuck up millions of lives. Why do we allow any knuckle-dragging mouth-breather to do it? What's wrong with a voting license, with a basic aptitude and political awareness test. I know that stupid people would, obviously, object to being disenfranchised. But it's for the same reason kids aren't allowed matches that they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Out of idle curiosity, what exactly is it that you've done in life which has given you such confidence that you belong in the pantheon of great minds?

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 7:20:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I love the countryside, too - I like hiking and climbing. I don't see it being eroded by immigrants, though. What point are you making here? I deliberately didn't only say immigrants, as I knew you would take it and focus on 'immigrants'. I've also noticed that none of you commented on my facts that there were plenty of people who were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation immigrants who voted to leave. But then I suppose this doesn't tally with your racist and stupid comments. As for my Mam, I suppose it's the advance of business, which of course entails movement of labour. I suppose she's a Labour voting conservative with a small c. 'Better off in the EU', 'imports and exports', the denizens of middle-class Alderley edge drinking pimms and talking shite, and a few bankers from JP Morgan or wherever 'in the city' losing their jobs; is not her reality, nor a concern of hers. Her reality is the simple life, of which the countryside is an important part, and of course this is at odds with global politics; so she instinctively bristles when she hears 'the global economy'.

Staleek -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (6/28/2016 7:23:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: Staleek quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze It's only 52% home grown idiots who caused it You've gotta laugh. 17 million people are idiots because they didn't agree with this woman. No. They're idiots because they voted to leave the EU. Whether LadyConstanze even exists or not is irrelevant to the reason these people have been such self-destructive moronic simpletons. What I want to know is this, why were they allowed to vote? If I want to drive a car, I have to pass a basic competency test. If i want to do SCUBA, I need to pass an aptitude test. If I want to practice medicine I need a medical degree. The ability to vote, clearly, has the potential to fuck up millions of lives. Why do we allow any knuckle-dragging mouth-breather to do it? What's wrong with a voting license, with a basic aptitude and political awareness test. I know that stupid people would, obviously, object to being disenfranchised. But it's for the same reason kids aren't allowed matches that they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Out of idle curiosity, what exactly is it that you've done in life which has given you such confidence that you belong in the pantheon of great minds? I don't think I belong in any pantheon of "great minds". I don't think you need a "great mind" to be qualified to vote. I'll settle for "mind", which the Brexit yobbos obviously don't have. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/brexit-racism-eu-referendum-racist-incidents-politicians-media http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

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