RE: Brexit Vote Results

RE: Brexit Vote Results (Full Version)

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Marini -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 10:23:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Why do so many people who work for less than a living wage think the Tories are the dogs bollocks? Good question. Some people find it useful to pose the question thus: "Why do we/people desire our/their own repression?". Here it's called aspirational politics. People make their choices not on facts, or the reality of the situation, but on the emotional basis of which side they believe better enables the kind of things that they hope or aspire for. It manages to combine selfishness and romanticism in a rather muddled fashion. People who live in horrible dives dream about living in a mansion, and believe that if they work hard enough for it, it can happen. In newer more dynamic societies like Australia or the USA these aspirations have more chance of success than in older more traditional societies like those in Europe. But the overall reality is that most aspirational voters never have their aspirations fulfilled, but the people they trust to deliver those aspirations - the already rich and powerful, the 1% - manage to do very well for themselves while others wait and wait and wait ..... [sm=goodpost.gif] Great post as usual. I learned a new phrase, "aspirational politics". It's certainly fits in the United States for the majority of the voters. Voters keep electing Democratic and Republican politicians, {hoping for change}, seemingly oblivious that almost all are bought and owned by corporations/big business and special interest groups. Nothing has significantly changed for decades, except the standard of living for many has declined, and the middle class is being decimated. But they will continue to vote for them, even as things continue to get worse. No matter how bad it gets.... they still believe. Unable/or unwilling to accept reality... Aspirational politics.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 10:45:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Why do so many people who work for less than a living wage think the Tories are the dogs bollocks? Good question. Some people find it useful to pose the question thus: "Why do we/people desire our/their own repression?". Here it's called aspirational politics. People make their choices not on facts, or the reality of the situation, but on the emotional basis of which side they believe better enables the kind of things that they hope or aspire for. It manages to combine selfishness and romanticism in a rather muddled fashion. People who live in horrible dives dream about living in a mansion, and believe that if they work hard enough for it, it can happen. In newer more dynamic societies like Australia or the USA these aspirations have more chance of success than in older more traditional societies like those in Europe. But the overall reality is that most aspirational voters never have their aspirations fulfilled, but the people they trust to deliver those aspirations - the already rich and powerful, the 1% - manage to do very well for themselves while others wait and wait and wait ..... The most economically impoverished part of England is the North East, and I'd imagine at least 85% of those from this region who vote in general elections vote for the Labour Party, not the Tories. In the real world, Maria's question isn't a good one. It seems to me that Maria's question is a very pertinent one, especially if one wishes to understand why all those Labour voters in the NE were persuaded by right wing demagogues like Farage and UKIP to commit economic hari-kari. That's about as real world as it gets. The flaw is in your own post: "persuaded by right-wing demagogues like Farage". Farage isn't one of us and never will be, nor was anyone persuaded by him. But, I suppose that suits the agenda of people like you and Maria and the others on this board, who really are no less contemptuous of the Working Classes than Thatcher or Cameron or any of the others - the people you claim to oppose. You're just like them, because you can't possibly conceive of a situation where people in this area voted the way they did because it was a vote against all politicians. The lot of 'em. British, European, whatever. We're not as stupid and easily led as you lot would like to believe - I suppose it supports your collective view and cause that the great Working Classes are being exploited by the 'Powers-That-Be". Not likely. We have a part to play in this fight and we've just fought back. We don't need a Farage to know that these people take decisions that we have no part in and don't want. Let me tell you something: Back in the '80s I was brought up in a mining village in County Durham. The sort of place where we didn't have a pot to piss in. Not living in absolute poverty, but certainly poor by English standards. We had a thriving community. A tradition of house-footing on New Year's Eve, where it was expected that you would walk into someone's house for a beer or a whiskey to wish them all the best for the new year without invite. We had many, many community events and galas, doors were unlocked, crime was virtually zero bar the odd drunk driver, everyone knew everyone and the sort of place where everyone you met you said hello to and stopped for a bit crack on. We didn't have much, but we respected our community and our neighbours. So, what did our arsehole government do? They shipped in problem people from places such as Leeds and Nottingham (white by the way, before someone screams RACIST!). People who couldn't respect their own communities and neighbours. They shipped them up here into the villages 'round County Durham because of stocks of cheap housing. What happened in no time? Burglaries started happening, there was trouble on New Year's Eve, doors started being locked, a centuries old tradition of house-footing on New Year's Eve died. Our community changed forever. Now, that was my Mam and my Dad and my Grandma and Grandad. Their community that belonged to them ruined by the arseholes in London who make decisions that we don't want but must accept. It may seem like a small thing to those reading this, but this the tip of an iceberg concerning politicians making decisions that affect us. A lot of resentment has built up over things like this over the years, and quite frankly politicians aren't trusted to make decisions in our interests. So, when the opportunity arose to fuck up their grand plans, people 'round here snapped their hands off and gave them a big: "fuck you". So, don't be so condescending in thinking that we're all sheep being led around the block. Farage isn't one of us and never will be. It was one in the eye for the fuckers as opposed to any sense that there is some saviour out there who is going to make things 'better'.

Marini -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 10:52:05 AM)
[sm=goodpost.gif] Surely you are a racist white man, who would not accept the white criminals dropped into your community! You are supposed to accept whatever the government does to you mate. If your community gets run down, crime goes up and your standard of living goes down, just suck it up and accept your new reality.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 11:01:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB So you don’t vote conservative and you’ve never bought a council house. Why do so many people who work for less than a living wage think the Tories are the dogs bollocks? Speaking of mysteries, why do you make little sense and why are you asking me to provide an answer to your nonsensical conundrums? Were you to get out into the world you'd find that 'so many people' do not think 'the Tories are the dogs bollocks'. This state of affairs doesn't exist outside of your mind. You really do need to knock that big chip off your shoulder mate and remember, it was you who threw the first rock. If you can’t debate without persistently flinging unintelligent insults, then maybe you should find another hobby. Just post something reasonable, Maria.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 11:01:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph this is what brexit means for some http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36746763 It's actually worse than this. On top of it, the £ is in free fall, not noticed by most yet, but most of what we consume is imported, so soon enough it will hit the shops with price raises. People already just scraping to get by won't be able to get by, there is less money spare to give to charities, the local food banks already reported less donations... Hey, the Brexiters won, let them have the booby price...

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 11:02:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB Having worked on two general election campaigns, I know a lot of working poor will slam the door in a Labour candidates face. I couldn't say what they do in London, it's a different part of the world. But, that doesn't happen up here.

MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 12:14:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph this is what brexit means for some http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36746763 It's actually worse than this. On top of it, the £ is in free fall, not noticed by most yet, but most of what we consume is imported, so soon enough it will hit the shops with price raises. People already just scraping to get by won't be able to get by, there is less money spare to give to charities, the local food banks already reported less donations... Hey, the Brexiters won, let them have the booby price... The fall in the £ hasn't been created by Brexit though. The banking crisis has been ongoing for some time; it was just a matter of when and how long before things started to crash. The Deutsche Bank, the French Bank and the Italian Banks have all been slowly sliding into insolvency. Capitalism is inherently unstable; they’ve just been putting a band-aid over its collapse for sometime. http://www.cnbc.com/id/20510977 The good news is, the falling £ is going to make housing more affordable. The bad news is, its going to be more affordable to people who hold a buoyant currency, which means British housing will become a world investment whilst the Brits will have to suffer the negative equity.

Edwird -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/10/2016 8:24:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird What's your issue, bruv? Can you not see that those who look out for interests of people who actually get it done are in your corner? If you take that as some imaginary 'condescension', that's on you and nobody else. Don't expect me to waste that effort on fuckwits. Really, just being ironic, I hope. If you think that I was being 'ironic,' then you are lost. Read my posts elsewhere on this site to get a clue where I'm coming from. I only took classes at the uni out of very begrudging regard for what the fuckwits in the world want. I already knew how things worked long before that. And here's the latest; I don't give a flying fuck what you or Northern Gent say, but thank goodness neither of you ever had anything to do with my thinking. I went to the uni, far too late in life, to try to figure out what I wish I had figured out 20-30 years before. Don't expect me to waste that effort on fuckwits. Apologies to both Vincent and Northern Gent. I might or might not have misread your intent. You might or might not have misread mine. The above quoted was a bad post on my part. Quite embarrassed, TBH.

blnymph -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 1:25:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 You're just like them, because you can't possibly conceive of a situation where people in this area voted the way they did because it was a vote against all politicians. The lot of 'em. British, European, whatever. ... So, when the opportunity arose to fuck up their grand plans, people 'round here snapped their hands off and gave them a big: "fuck you". So, don't be so condescending in thinking that we're all sheep being led around the block. Farage isn't one of us and never will be. It was one in the eye for the fuckers as opposed to any sense that there is some saviour out there who is going to make things 'better'. I do not want to spoil your romantic notions of how you successfully kicked some arses, especially Nigel F's ... but you didn't. It may take some more time to realise that maybe. But you just did their job. And lined some pockets, and it won't be yours either.

Edwird -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 3:19:10 AM)
A book I read some time ago had in its overleaf the quote; "When someone makes noise about 'the price of freedom!', someone else is paying." You live in a country that has not been taken over by the so-called 'corpratocracy,' or whatever term for what would be accurately described as consortium oligarchy. As exists so blatantly in the US. I'm not going to venture into whether the British voters did the right or the wrong thing because I don't live there, and I have no idea what that or any other issue 'feels like' in that country. But even if, for sake of argument, we assume the vote as going the wrong way (which, not even advocates of leave deny at least short term hardship), I myself can't avoid the observation that so many people beating the voters up for that are so adamant in their position that they themselves appear to be in complete denial of the relentless economic devastation wrought by incessant 'economic neoliberalism.' Did the EU even make pretense of bettering the situation in the UK in that regard? Not that I could see. On a related note; as much as I admire Germany regarding the education system better preparing workers and so their being better paid than in most countries, and the workers as a whole actually having some say so in national matters, . . . It gripes me no end the hair-trigger response of the Bundesbank in insisting on immediate and severe "austerity" for every economic hiccup of -other- countries. I imagine a big sign in that office saying "Weimar 1922? NIE WIEDER!" Maybe after three generations further, they will take that sign down. That is also the response of the WTO and the IMF. Not the best company to align with, there. A large number of "third world" or "less developed countries" would attest to that. Why didn't they attack the real problem in Greece? Germany is very good at collecting taxes, so they should know better. The US and UK are good at collecting taxes, except for the top ~2%. The trouble with Greece is that they extend tax loopholes to almost everybody, not just the rich, as in the UK or US. To paraphrase Oprah; "And you get a loophole!, and you get a loophole!, everybody gets a tax loophole!" But even being among the best tax collectors in the world and among the best at social services, all Germany can propose is to cut funding, while being completely silent on the revenue side of it? NOT smart. That is IMF tactics towards third world countries, start to finish. It didn't help that Goldman Sachs (US investment bank) helped Greece pull a fast one by way of an interest rate swap that hid their real level of debt as they were being considered for EU membership, but that's no excuse. It's hard for me to believe that your auditors were that stupid. But maybe not, considering all the Landesbanken buying up all those fraudulent CDOs from the US (lots of people in the US and other countries did the same thing, don't feel too ashamed on that one). So then we come to the point. Economic neoliberalism has been hammering away for decades now at what otherwise would be two great countries, by having imposed upon us their mantra of 'the market' being the best arbiter of all things. The prescribed method to that end, certainly in the US, is continual war against any and all regulation. But you are right. The British voters' response to all this now places before them two candidates who will prescribe 'austerity!' to all but the top 2% income level. Germany is good at prescribing austerity for everybody else. The UK and US are champions at relegating their own to third world status.

Edwird -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 4:31:40 AM)
Again, I am NOT saying that British voters did the right thing. But when I see Trump as even "a vote" in the US (which fuckwit media in the US are -totally- responsible for), I can understand there being a great deal of consternation about things. So it's hard for me to weigh in on another country's alleged stupidity.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 11:12:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 You're just like them, because you can't possibly conceive of a situation where people in this area voted the way they did because it was a vote against all politicians. The lot of 'em. British, European, whatever. ... So, when the opportunity arose to fuck up their grand plans, people 'round here snapped their hands off and gave them a big: "fuck you". So, don't be so condescending in thinking that we're all sheep being led around the block. Farage isn't one of us and never will be. It was one in the eye for the fuckers as opposed to any sense that there is some saviour out there who is going to make things 'better'. I do not want to spoil your romantic notions of how you successfully kicked some arses, especially Nigel F's ... but you didn't. It may take some more time to realise that maybe. But you just did their job. And lined some pockets, and it won't be yours either. I'm afraid that while you think you get it, you don't. Edited to add: and of course what we really need is another pack of politicians milking the system, except this one, the EU, has four presidents for fuck's sake, thousands of them drawing up regulations about shit like pillows and tooth brushses; and they grant themselves a special, lower rate of income tax that the rest of us mere minions aren't afforded, and they even pay themselves an allowance on top of their outrageous salaries just for turning up and doing their jobs. I mean, are these people serious?! Look, handling one lot of politicians is bad enough so we really don't need another lot sat in another country and that lot are even worse. Continental Europe has always been a society ordered in a fashion where the people expect that a few 'experts' will lord it over the many; that doesn't wash here.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 11:28:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird Again, I am NOT saying that British voters did the right thing. But when I see Trump as even "a vote" in the US (which fuckwit media in the US are -totally- responsible for), I can understand there being a great deal of consternation about things. So it's hard for me to weigh in on another country's alleged stupidity. Put it this way, Edwird, a more discerning public such as the USA would never in a million years have accepted an institution such as the EU. If by some freak of nature they had, they would have left a long, long time before we did. The EU ain't no USA, mate.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 11:38:37 AM)
What hasn't been said is that those EU MEPs leaving the job get paid two years full salary after leaving. All at the tax-payers expense. That's running into hundreds of thousands of pounds. The greedy fuckers. Let's see what Farage is made of. If he takes it it will make a mockery of everything he has said. And, Blympth, you don't understand England. Old habits die hard here, and there are deep class and political divides. The Tories are despised in the North East of England. So, don't believe for a second we were voting out of some sort of nationalist sentiment. This isn't Germany nor France. We don't have grand ideals of saving the world through some super alliance. We're traditionalists who by and large just want to be left alone to run our lives.

MariaB -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 1:02:00 PM)
We all know that austerity has crippled much of the European economy. http://statewatch.org/news/2015/mar/ep-study-cris-fr.pdf highlights the deterioration of certain rights in seven countries: Belgium, Cyprus, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Education systematically slashed. Health costs transferred from state to citizen. Child poverty on the rise, even in rich EU countries. Critical shrinking of employment, pensions and justice. http://www.euractiv.com/section/languages-culture/news/study-austerity-undermines-fundamental-rights-across-the-eu/ I voted out, not because I think there is a problem with immigration or because I thought Bojo could run the joint more efficiently. I voted out because I knew we would never have a Corbyn style party whilst under the EU. There is nothing intrinsically socialist about the EU and there never will be.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 1:09:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB I voted out, not because I think there is a problem with immigration or because I thought Bojo could run the joint more efficiently. I voted out because I knew we would never have a Corbyn style party whilst under the EU. There is nothing intrinsically socialist about the EU and there never will be. There certainly is something wrong with immigration. Our government has placed asylum seekers in places already struggling with high unemployment and the associated burden on public services. Places such as Middlesbrough, Rochdale, Oldham. Now, their contempt for people's communities has come back to bite them, because had they spread the load 'round the country people would have said: "fair enough". David Cameron and associates wouldn't live next door to an asylum seeker, so why should people in areas of high deprivation? This has been going on for a long time and people took the opportunity to stand up for their communities. As for Jeremy Corbyn being elected to a position of power, you have more chance of being drowned in a puddle. That horse bolted a long while back. They had their chance and they feathered their own nests. People haven't forgotten that either. Edited to add: the EU is a classic socialist institution. Talking shite about saving the world while having four presidents, thousands of people dreaming up regulations where they're not needed in order to justify a huge salary, and granting themselves reduce income tax not afford to the people they're supposed to be serving. What I really like about them is that they pay themselves a daily allowance just for turning up - now, that takes some serious egomania to arrive at that conclusion - and I for one still can't believe that there are people out there who could possibly justify such a thing - as I say, classic socialist - they probably think they're saving the world and as such deserve these things, while everyone else is scratching their heads thinking these people must be on some serious mind bending drugs.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 1:33:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 ...that they pay themselves a daily allowance just for turning up - now, that takes some serious egomania to arrive at that conclusion - and I for one still can't believe that there are people out there who could possibly justify such a thing... Members of the house of lords get exactly the same sort of arrangement - paid just to turn up. From parliament.uk website: "Members who are not paid a salary may claim a flat rate attendance allowance of £150 or £300 for each sitting day they attend the House." So if they worked as much as the Average Joe (5 days a week), they'd pick up £78,000pa and that doesn't include travel expenses or other perks they can claim. And we all know that many "working days" at the house may only be a few minutes to register that they've actually turned up; They don't have to put in a whole day's work like Average Joe and after that they can go back home again - paid for the whole day.

NorthernGent1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 1:38:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1 ...that they pay themselves a daily allowance just for turning up - now, that takes some serious egomania to arrive at that conclusion - and I for one still can't believe that there are people out there who could possibly justify such a thing... Members of the house of lords get exactly the same sort of arrangement - paid just to turn up. From parliament.uk website: "Members who are not paid a salary may claim a flat rate attendance allowance of £150 or £300 for each sitting day they attend the House." So if they worked as much as the Average Joe (5 days a week), they'd pick up £78,000pa and that doesn't include travel expenses or other perks they can claim. And we all know that many "working days" at the house may only be a few minutes to register that they've actually turned up; They don't have to put in a whole day's work like Average Joe and after that they can go back home again - paid for the whole day. No one's pretending that our political class is a beacon of ethics. But, one lot is bad enough, another lot on top is beyond the pale.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 1:44:46 PM)
I quite agree NG. The sooner we get away from those greedy unelected beaurocrats the better. [8D]

Marini -> RE: Brexit Vote Results (7/11/2016 10:07:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I quite agree NG. The sooner we get away from those greedy unelected beaurocrats the better. [8D] I have really enjoyed this thread. We share many of the same issues. Thank you for sharing your views from across the pond. It's going to all work out mates.

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