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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 3:52:56 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Then you agree...when he tried to buy a weapon he would have been investigated and at a minimum not allowed to buy a weapon and been kept under close surveillance... I think it is you that can't see the problem with guns without the proper vetting.

Butch

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 5:04:35 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I am all for investigating people on the terror lists, if they aren't investigating them what is the point of the lists. But don't you think penalizing them before you have proof. It is like holding everyone who lives near where a crime was committed till you sort out which one did it.

Yup, that's pretty much how this pink-commie-liberal-Sanders-supporter sees it also. You either have a right to own a gun or you don't. If you do, then that right should not be abridged without due process.... real due process not the crap Bush & Obama have foisted on us.

Insofar as the terrorist watch lists themselves, I'd like to throw them in the garbage can along with the organizations that developed them. Secret process with secret criteria which yield semi-random lists of people who have no idea they are being accused of anything and who have no real recourse for getting off said list. That is utter bullshit. They might as well name them "List of State's Enemies" and be done with it.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 6:43:18 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		We do not owe that extension of right to non-citizens, however. We do owe it to American citizens. But all that shit is iffy after the patriot act.

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 7:32:49 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Then you agree...when he tried to buy a weapon he would have been investigated and at a minimum not allowed to buy a weapon and been kept under close surveillance... I think it is you that can't see the problem with guns without the proper vetting.

Butch

The gun dealer called the FBI on him and they did nothing. But in that case they had reasonable cause and did nothing so your answer is to nail everyone regardless of evidence. If they won't investigate people when they have cause just penalize everyone without wasting time with little things like proof and due process. Are you willing to sacrifice the 5th or any other amendement (of course excluding the 2nd) for this? Even proponents of this have admitted that the due process clause of the 5th keeps them from doing it. But don't worry, they are willing to destroy the 5th if it is in the way of them destroying the second.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 7:36:47 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I am all for investigating people on the terror lists, if they aren't investigating them what is the point of the lists. But don't you think penalizing them before you have proof. It is like holding everyone who lives near where a crime was committed till you sort out which one did it.

Yup, that's pretty much how this pink-commie-liberal-Sanders-supporter sees it also. You either have a right to own a gun or you don't. If you do, then that right should not be abridged without due process.... real due process not the crap Bush & Obama have foisted on us.

Insofar as the terrorist watch lists themselves, I'd like to throw them in the garbage can along with the organizations that developed them. Secret process with secret criteria which yield semi-random lists of people who have no idea they are being accused of anything and who have no real recourse for getting off said list. That is utter bullshit. They might as well name them "List of State's Enemies" and be done with it.


I don't think they were created in the strictest sense of the word.
I think they were authorized and so it wouldn't look like nothing was being done they started putting names on the lists with no guidelines and no recourse. Now people what to use them to go after people again without proof, guidelines, or due process.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 7:42:21 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I am all for investigating people on the terror lists, if they aren't investigating them what is the point of the lists. But don't you think penalizing them before you have proof. It is like holding everyone who lives near where a crime was committed till you sort out which one did it.

Yup, that's pretty much how this pink-commie-liberal-Sanders-supporter sees it also. You either have a right to own a gun or you don't. If you do, then that right should not be abridged without due process.... real due process not the crap Bush & Obama have foisted on us.

Insofar as the terrorist watch lists themselves, I'd like to throw them in the garbage can along with the organizations that developed them. Secret process with secret criteria which yield semi-random lists of people who have no idea they are being accused of anything and who have no real recourse for getting off said list. That is utter bullshit. They might as well name them "List of State's Enemies" and be done with it.


List of state enemies I like that, I think enemirs of the state flows better.
As I pointed out on another thread, Al Gore made the no fly list, MLK made the 60"s watch list and if we had had this at the time anyone that LBJ or Nixon didn't like would have been on it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 9:12:17 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
List of state enemies I like that, I think enemirs of the state flows better.

*facepalm* Of course!

quote:

As I pointed out on another thread, Al Gore made the no fly list, MLK made the 60"s watch list and if we had had this at the time anyone that LBJ or Nixon didn't like would have been on it.

Yup. So I'm not much in favor of "terrorist" lists. Largely, that's because the way our government uses the worst "terrorist" doesn't at all match the way I use it. If I actually believed for one moment that the intent was to find people trying to blow up airplanes and whatnot then I'd be all behind it.... with more transparency and checks & balances.

Even were that not true, your point would still remain. Current status from the Supreme Court says there's a right to buy guns. These things change over time but the current answer is that it's a constitutional right. Accordingly, the only way to impede that right should be due process and in accordance with the various other bits of the bill of rights.

Sadly, our government doesn't seem particularly interested in the bill of rights nowadays.... nor does our citizenry actually.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 9:27:29 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Then you agree...when he tried to buy a weapon he would have been investigated and at a minimum not allowed to buy a weapon and been kept under close surveillance... I think it is you that can't see the problem with guns without the proper vetting.

Butch

No I think he should have been investigated when he went on the list.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 10:27:50 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		We agree there as well.... I do believe the mistakes are exaggerated but I think then you should be willing to pay for the manpower it would take to have prompt competent investigations... I am.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/24/2016 11:02:19 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We agree there as well.... I do believe the mistakes are exaggerated but I think then you should be willing to pay for the manpower it would take to have prompt competent investigations... I am.

Butch

Is it the manpower or the methodology, the woman in San Bernadito wasn't interviewed properly, she had posted all kinds of pro terror pro Jihadist statement on facebook but the FBI didn't want to look like they were picking on a Moslem. one agent has said the same thing went wrong with investigating the Orlando shooter. We have to get serious about investingating these things or we won't make any progress with them.
The terror lists have to be started again from scratch, if there is actual evidence don't wait till a gun dealer calls you up to warn you about someone.
If you have no evidence what in the world are the doing on the list in the first place. You don't fix this by bypassing due process, skiping trial by jury confenscating personal property just because you have a suspicion that maybe. All of those things dismantleing the Bill of Rights you do it by going after the actual threats. As it is, with people going on the lists with no proof you build a forest for the actual terrorists to hide in. Of course we need to have enough agents to do the job, spending twice as much as you need to stop an enemy isn't nearly as wasteful as spending half as much. Restarting the lists would be a big start. While I don't like Gore for example I think it was ridiculous that he was on the no fly list for a while. All they accomplish by ignoreing little things like due process and actual evidence in puttint people on these lists is they create so many false leads that the Jihadists don't have to hide, there are too many people on the lists to properly look at anyone.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 6:21:00 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I am all for investigating people on the terror lists, if they aren't investigating them what is the point of the lists. But don't you think penalizing them before you have proof. It is like holding everyone who lives near where a crime was committed till you sort out which one did it.

Yup, that's pretty much how this pink-commie-liberal-Sanders-supporter sees it also. You either have a right to own a gun or you don't. If you do, then that right should not be abridged without due process.... real due process not the crap Bush & Obama have foisted on us.

Insofar as the terrorist watch lists themselves, I'd like to throw them in the garbage can along with the organizations that developed them. Secret process with secret criteria which yield semi-random lists of people who have no idea they are being accused of anything and who have no real recourse for getting off said list. That is utter bullshit. They might as well name them "List of State's Enemies" and be done with it.



~FR~

So again, folks -- does this mean you would support, for example, eliminating the Department of Homeland Theater, just let people get onto planes w/o searches or lists? Or would you wait until they attack the plane?

Would the carnage be justified by liberty? Are you writing Congress to get it changed?

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 6:22:10 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We agree there as well.... I do believe the mistakes are exaggerated but I think then you should be willing to pay for the manpower it would take to have prompt competent investigations... I am.

Butch

Is it the manpower or the methodology, the woman in San Bernadito wasn't interviewed properly, she had posted all kinds of pro terror pro Jihadist statement on facebook but the FBI didn't want to look like they were picking on a Moslem. one agent has said the same thing went wrong with investigating the Orlando shooter. We have to get serious about investingating these things or we won't make any progress with them.
The terror lists have to be started again from scratch, if there is actual evidence don't wait till a gun dealer calls you up to warn you about someone.
If you have no evidence what in the world are the doing on the list in the first place. You don't fix this by bypassing due process, skiping trial by jury confenscating personal property just because you have a suspicion that maybe. All of those things dismantleing the Bill of Rights you do it by going after the actual threats. As it is, with people going on the lists with no proof you build a forest for the actual terrorists to hide in. Of course we need to have enough agents to do the job, spending twice as much as you need to stop an enemy isn't nearly as wasteful as spending half as much. Restarting the lists would be a big start. While I don't like Gore for example I think it was ridiculous that he was on the no fly list for a while. All they accomplish by ignoreing little things like due process and actual evidence in puttint people on these lists is they create so many false leads that the Jihadists don't have to hide, there are too many people on the lists to properly look at anyone.

If as you say people are on the list as the result of evidence, why isn't this grounds for holding off on gun sales to them?

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 6:55:32 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.
Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 7:10:22 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Under the equal protection clause, however, it seemingly makes no difference that the threatened interest is a privilege rather than a right. Even a privilege, benefit, opportunity, or public advantage may not be granted to some but withheld from others where the basis of classification and difference in treatment is arbitrary.

And how is it not arbitrary in application?

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 7:26:44 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.
Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

However, I think it is an error to flat out state the No Fly List and the Terrorists Watch List are unconstitutional for lack of due process. From what I have read, but not verified, you can search the lists on line for your name, and you can submit an online form claiming mistaken identity which will gain you a personal number to present at the gate if you were deemed on there by error as a "same name." Furthermore, there have been successful law cases by people on the list.

So, due process, however clumsy, seems to be available. But then, no one ever said shit was gonna be easy.


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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 7:35:17 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I dont see it, I see a couple of scam sites though.

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RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 7:44:35 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.
Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.
Wrong. Liberty has nothing to do with your ability to jump on a plane. A plane is an asset controlled by a business and they have every right to gate that asset using whatever means they deem necessary. The primary means they use to gate access to that asset is MONEY. Do I hear you complaining that requiring someone to have money is an imposition on their liberty? Of course not, so stop being stupid. Your contention doesn't even begin to hold fucking water.

Christ.

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Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 8:36:25 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.
Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

However, I think it is an error to flat out state the No Fly List and the Terrorists Watch List are unconstitutional for lack of due process. From what I have read, but not verified, you can search the lists on line for your name, and you can submit an online form claiming mistaken identity which will gain you a personal number to present at the gate if you were deemed on there by error as a "same name." Furthermore, there have been successful law cases by people on the list.

So, due process, however clumsy, seems to be available. But then, no one ever said shit was gonna be easy.


Normally people can't find out they are on the lists till they try to get on a plane.
It usually takes years to get off the list, and no actual evidence is required to put a person on the list.
It is a violation of due process because the penalties are inacted before the person on the list even knows they are on it.
They can't face thier accuser.
They don't get any kind of trial.
They don't get to challenge the "evidence" which as I said, usually doesn't exist.
Yes there is a process for them to prove thier innocence, but in out system due process requires not that they prove thier innocence, but that the government prove thier guilt.
Using these lists to take any action against people turns our entire judicial system on it's head.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 8:40:03 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.
Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.
Wrong. Liberty has nothing to do with your ability to jump on a plane. A plane is an asset controlled by a business and they have every right to gate that asset using whatever means they deem necessary. The primary means they use to gate access to that asset is MONEY. Do I hear you complaining that requiring someone to have money is an imposition on their liberty? Of course not, so stop being stupid. Your contention doesn't even begin to hold fucking water.

Christ.

But this is an action not by the airlines but by the government.
So in addition to covicting without a trial, without evidence, and without notice, the government is taking control of private property by proclimation again without due process.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Awareness)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why isn't no fly a denial of due process? - 6/25/2016 9:01:25 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Just for discussion ... HERE... is the appeal process... I am with you on the speed and the TSC center is currently stream lining the procedures.

The question has been asked... can you find out if you are on the list... the answer is HERE...and it is NO. Why... because if a terrorists knows he is being watched he may act differently negating the advantage to the FBI.

Instead of being high and mighty try to calmly think of the reasons and problems and compromises need for this program to work and be effective...and all and all it has been.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 40
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