quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.

Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.

Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

However, I think it is an error to flat out state the No Fly List and the Terrorists Watch List are unconstitutional for lack of due process. From what I have read, but not verified, you can search the lists on line for your name, and you can submit an online form claiming mistaken identity which will gain you a personal number to present at the gate if you were deemed on there by error as a "same name." Furthermore, there have been successful law cases by people on the list.

So, due process, however clumsy, seems to be available. But then, no one ever said shit was gonna be easy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.

Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

However, I think it is an error to flat out state the No Fly List and the Terrorists Watch List are unconstitutional for lack of due process. From what I have read, but not verified, you can search the lists on line for your name, and you can submit an online form claiming mistaken identity which will gain you a personal number to present at the gate if you were deemed on there by error as a "same name." Furthermore, there have been successful law cases by people on the list.

So, due process, however clumsy, seems to be available. But then, no one ever said shit was gonna be easy.

Exactly.

It's like getting a search warrant -- you aren't convicted of anything, but there's reasonable suspicion to set aside your rights from undue search and seizure.

That's what the no fly list is -- and it should be the no buy list as well, until the investigation is concluded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.

Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

However, I think it is an error to flat out state the No Fly List and the Terrorists Watch List are unconstitutional for lack of due process. From what I have read, but not verified, you can search the lists on line for your name, and you can submit an online form claiming mistaken identity which will gain you a personal number to present at the gate if you were deemed on there by error as a "same name." Furthermore, there have been successful law cases by people on the list.

So, due process, however clumsy, seems to be available. But then, no one ever said shit was gonna be easy.

Exactly.

It's like getting a search warrant -- you aren't convicted of anything, but there's reasonable suspicion to set aside your rights from undue search and seizure.

That's what the no fly list is -- and it should be the no buy list as well, until the investigation is concluded.

Why stop with the 2nd Amendment? If you're on a secret government list we should be allowing law enforcement to search your home for anything terroristy without a warrant. If you're on a secret government list you should immediately be held, without bail and access to a lawyer, at a government facility until you can prove your innocence.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD
Exactly, once you decided due process doesn't count for one thing why should it count for anything else?

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Exactly, once you decided due process doesn't count for one thing why should it count for anything else?

Bingo! Due process is either a bedrock principle or else it's window dressing because, as a society, it's at the very moments we need it most that the government will be least likely to want to produce it.

I have mixed and varied feelings about gun control but I know for a fact that the only thing I want based on a "terrorism suspect list" is "further investigation with all the protections of the constitution". That, in my opinion, is the only "next step" from being placed on some suspect list.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Exactly, once you decided due process doesn't count for one thing why should it count for anything else?

Bingo! Due process is either a bedrock principle or else it's window dressing because, as a society, it's at the very moments we need it most that the government will be least likely to want to produce it.

I have mixed and varied feelings about gun control but I know for a fact that the only thing I want based on a "terrorism suspect list" is "further investigation with all the protections of the constitution". That, in my opinion, is the only "next step" from being placed on some suspect list.

Absolutly.
The list as it is is unworkable and it's use for any action beyon investigation is a micarrage of justice.
They need to be scrapped, re=formated, streamlined an turned into a database of actual evidence.
The when you get to reasonable cause you move forward toward prosecution.
The central problem with this isn't concerning you views on this, it is about turning the Constitution into a total facade.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Just a minute! Who decided due process doesn't count. I said it is clumsy, but wtf isn't clumsy in law? Nothing is automatic.
Your talk of data base of actual evidence violates all sorts of privacy rights imo.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.

Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

Wrong. Liberty has nothing to do with your ability to jump on a plane. A plane is an asset controlled by a business and they have every right to gate that asset using whatever means they deem necessary. The primary means they use to gate access to that asset is MONEY. Do I hear you complaining that requiring someone to have money is an imposition on their liberty? Of course not, so stop being stupid. Your contention doesn't even begin to hold fucking water.

Christ.

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Just a minute! Who decided due process doesn't count. I said it is clumsy, but wtf isn't clumsy in law? Nothing is automatic.
Your talk of data base of actual evidence violates all sorts of privacy rights imo.

How does one get on this list? How does one get off it? Where are the rules written so that a law abiding citizen can abide by them? At what moment does the citizen get to face their accuser? Where is the trial of one's peers? How about the presentation of evidence?

Yup. There's none of that. Any old process does not constitute "due process".

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So , the #1 objection I hear to "no fly, no buy" is that it denies due process.

Bullshit. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The government has full authority to enact legislation to protect the population in shared spaces. Anyone who contends otherwise is a fucking moron.

No, not a privilege. Liberty is the issue and Liberty is guaranteed twice in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

However, I think it is an error to flat out state the No Fly List and the Terrorists Watch List are unconstitutional for lack of due process. From what I have read, but not verified, you can search the lists on line for your name, and you can submit an online form claiming mistaken identity which will gain you a personal number to present at the gate if you were deemed on there by error as a "same name." Furthermore, there have been successful law cases by people on the list.

So, due process, however clumsy, seems to be available. But then, no one ever said shit was gonna be easy.

Exactly.

It's like getting a search warrant -- you aren't convicted of anything, but there's reasonable suspicion to set aside your rights from undue search and seizure.

That's what the no fly list is -- and it should be the no buy list as well, until the investigation is concluded.

Why stop with the 2nd Amendment? If you're on a secret government list we should be allowing law enforcement to search your home for anything terroristy without a warrant. If you're on a secret government list you should immediately be held, without bail and access to a lawyer, at a government facility until you can prove your innocence.

Exactly, once you decied due process doesn't count for one thing why should it count for anything else?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why start at the 5th and 14th Amendments?

Then there's your mischaracterization:

1) It's not a secret list -- we know about it.
2) When appropriate for the investigation, presumably there would be grounds for a search warrant. Nonetheless, a judge would so determine.
3) Your last sentence is just stupid. That's neither the case nor proposed by anyone.

We're talking about ACTUAL things here, not the fantasies in your head.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Exactly, once you decided due process doesn't count for one thing why should it count for anything else?

Bingo! Due process is either a bedrock principle or else it's window dressing because, as a society, it's at the very moments we need it most that the government will be least likely to want to produce it.

I have mixed and varied feelings about gun control but I know for a fact that the only thing I want based on a "terrorism suspect list" is "further investigation with all the protections of the constitution". That, in my opinion, is the only "next step" from being placed on some suspect list.

Absolutly.
The list as it is is unworkable and it's use for any action beyon investigation is a micarrage of justice.
They need to be scrapped, re=formated, streamlined an turned into a database of actual evidence.
The when you get to reasonable cause you move forward toward prosecution.
The central problem with this isn't concerning you views on this, it is about turning the Constitution into a total facade.

Just a minute! Who decided due process doesn't count. I said it is clumsy, but wtf isn't clumsy in law? Nothing is automatic.
Your talk of data base of actual evidence violates all sorts of privacy rights imo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

If you don't know the difference between a air rifle and a gas operated automatic rifle ....You may be a psuedo Marine

If you don't know that air is a gas you "might" be a moron.

quote:

Sure they can go to court to get off the list but they are guilty untill such time they prove innocence. Again they want to turn our justice system on its head.

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ORIGINAL: ifmaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why start at the 5th and 14th Amendments?

Then there's your mischaracterization:

1) It's not a secret list -- we know about it.
2) When appropriate for the investigation, presumably there would be grounds for a search warrant. Nonetheless, a judge would so determine.
3) Your last sentence is just stupid. That's neither the case nor proposed by anyone.

We're talking about ACTUAL things here, not the fantasies in your head.

No, we don't know about it. The list is not public and there is no way to determine if one is on the list. The list contains only names of suspected terrorists, among others, like that of an 8 year old boy. The criteria for being included on the list has been demonstrated to be extremely flimsy.

You're attempting to say I have 'fantasies' to downplay the willful violation of the Bill of Rights regarding a right you don't like but not another because you are a hypocrite.