RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns

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DesideriScuri -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 2:09:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 PS: I actually don't understand this concealed and expose law. If people want to prevent bad guys from using their guns. All the good guys should walk around with guns exposed. In a gun filled country, how does not exposing gun keep you safe? If I'm already in a gun filled country I'd want all the bad guys to know that all the good guys are well armed, if they try anything! Not everyone carries a gun. Not all the "good guys" carry a gun. If a "bad guy" is planning to commit a crime, typically, the greatest known threats are removed first. So, if I'm in a bank with a gun at strapped to my waist, who is the bigger threat to a bank heist, me, or someone without a gun? I'd be the first taken out. If I'm carrying concealed, I shouldn't be recognized as a threat, at least not as a threat of a gun fight. When you plan something (anything, really), you attempt to come up with all sources that pose a risk of failure of the plan. Once those sources are identified, the plan is created to either eliminate those sources, or the plan includes steps to overcome those sources of potential failure. For instance, if you're using high pressure water (a water jet) to cut a vehicle flooring carpet and there is a required amount of vacuum to hold the part in place during the cutting, you could have the electronic controls not cycle through the cutting program if there isn't enough vacuum present. A thug might understand that there might be other shooters where he's attempting some sort of illegal action, he may opt out of the action, especially if the risk of other shooters being present is high enough. If he knows that there will be two other potential shooters, those two will be the first two to be neutralized. The thug will take out every person he knows has a gun that could cause his plan to fail, before he takes out people he thinks might have a gun. As a high school classmate, now a Cleveland, Ohio area police officer told me, "if you open carry, you make yourself a target."

Cinnamongirl67 -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 2:12:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire Must I put my foot down. I will. And I will do so equally, on the ones bating the Americans - after I am finished with them. I have said it so many times and in so many ways I truly grow weary Guns kill..end of all other narratives..and for the record they kill in all countries guns, yet at ridiculous, nae absurd, rate in America whatever it calls itself I have not told a true story for a wee bit today, illness is cruoius, yet it does not necessary mean I actually sleep, or sleep well So this afternoons nap I heard cat, the smallest from my three, dainty lady Ms karma, growl under my bed as I tried to slumber 3-5pm on 4 seprate occasion with 4 different sparrows - i rescued three from the four...and yet that one broke my hart...contrary to belief, I actually have an heart...it is also worth noting that I rescue one in twenty from Ms Kali..and Mr Kasper catch rate since his handsome existence of two years is nul whatever you are, to me just another mad rambler declaring the higher moral ground whilst offering nothing at all...your numbers i am sick of battling throughout all of time cosmos.... Now Americans you slaughter your own people at a rate unprecedented i the modern world. Why? that is how it is done Cinnamongirl67 Since you directed this comment at me, I tried to decipher the meaning behind the cat and bird riddle but I am afraid it makes no sense to me. Are you saying you have saved 1 out of 20 birds from your cats without a gun? Lol Anyway you may view me as a mad rambler with nothing to offer but your opinion means nothing, has zero power, and is not true. I have a full life outside this forum with people, do you? And I promise you this. If you were being violently attacked by either one person or a mob aiming on killing you and have no intent on stopping until your dead, you would feel damn grateful a high moral American came along with a gun to save your ass.

DesideriScuri -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 2:28:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And in SC one guy had a gun and kept anyone from being killed. So my point is, in one incident, 3 good gun owners didn't prevent the massacre. SC got lucky with a good shooter. But not many gun owners are gonna be great shooters. So it doesn't guarantee safer either! Let's start off by asking if you have a citation for the assclown shooter having a firefight before the night club massacre. The Wiki article states that a uniformed police officer working extra duty engaged the assclown at 2:02am, outside the club. Assclown was able to enter the club and started shooting. Two more officers engaged assclown, but assclown retreated further into the club. The first officer apparently traded gunfire with assclown, but there was no mention of how that ended. Regardless, assclown entered the club.

thishereboi -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 3:04:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874 I have a serious question here. If that woman had shot and wounded or killed those five (unarmed) men, would she have been charged with anything ? Or would she just get a 'Get out of jail free' card ? If so, why and on what grounds ? I promise I am not being a smartass. I am genuinely interested because those five really didn't seem to be any kind of threat to her or her family or her property. Out of interest, I really don't give a damn about the gun/no gun debate in America. That is for Americans to discuss and find their own solutions and really nothing to do with the rest of the world, no matter how WE live. Good luck to them, whatever they decide Are you suggesting she should have just stood there and watched them beat the guy to death? Is that really how folk down under handle shit? and what about this lady? http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2015/11/09/macomb-man-beaten-leaves-blowing/75449778/ he wasn't threatening her. Perhaps you think she should have gone back in her house and called the police. They wouldn't have gotten there in time but she would have been safe and able to id the body for the cops when they did show up. Or is that different because she knew the guy who was getting beaten. Perhaps it's only the strangers we should ignore and let die.

thishereboi -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 3:09:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: Cinnamongirl67 Lol. You do know a blind man could see the intentions of non stop insults to Americans. Jealous much? Or maybe it's ignorance. You don't hear about the every day routine stuff, you hear about the tragedies. My step dad is a hunter and owns an arsenal of guns. So do both my step brothers. So do half their sons. All hunters. All legal. Although they could, they don't carry a gun on themselves. Maybe in their vehicle but not strapped on routinely. One works for a federal penitentiary so trust me he has been tested psychologically. Good news they have neither threatens nor killed anyone and they are between 50-85 years of age with this privilege from the age of being legal. You never have to concern yourself with them unless one decides to steal, pull a gun on innocents, or themselves having their life threatened. A problem might be created then, but who created their destiny? As far as people carrying a gun on their person, depends on the nature of their job or the environment they are entering. There was a thread about people with guns while just having lunch. You really don't see people running around with guns exposed, at least where I come from. If they have one its concealed, unless it's a profession you won't see that. If someone is going to lunch showing a weapon it's very likely they will be questioned or reported anonymously. No, just a country who will protect LGBT people from being mass murdered! You guys let the mass murderer go because your laws of freedom, allow him to walk free and do this crime. FBI was helpless as the law worked against them, to detain this guy. Despite him being flagged in their list as potential terrorist. We arrested and thrown in jail, our own version of potential Orlando killer, as I have posted in the Orlando thread. We do alot of things to prevent bad things from happening. But to ensure everybody's safety, some kind of understanding that certain freedoms will be curtailed is expected for the safety of majority. We believe some the way we do things have saved many lives. But it's two different cultural beliefs. Individual freedom at the expense of others, is American. Giving up some reasonable freedom, so that everyone can be safe, is our culture. How is it reasonable? Does giving up this freedom prevent you from achieving your hopes and dreams? Doing what you love in life? If it does not, then it's reasonable. Not having guns in our country does not stop us from pursuing our hope and dreams. Unless that dream is owning a gun and that's all they want in life, then they can move to a gun legal country to achieve that. PS: I actually don't understand this concealed and expose law. If people want to prevent bad guys from using their guns. All the good guys should walk around with guns exposed. In a gun filled country, how does not exposing gun keep you safe? If I'm already in a gun filled country I'd want all the bad guys to know that all the good guys are well armed, if they try anything! Wow, I must have missed that story. Tell me Greta, which mass murderer did we let walk free?

BamaD -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 12:23:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And in SC one guy had a gun and kept anyone from being killed. So my point is, in one incident, 3 good gun owners didn't prevent the massacre. SC got lucky with a good shooter. But not many gun owners are gonna be great shooters. So it doesn't guarantee safer either! I believe your source to be wrong, if he had engaged three cops outside of Pulse it wouldn't have taken two weeks to come out. My point is you are wrong, and using bad sources.

DesideriScuri -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 1:59:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And in SC one guy had a gun and kept anyone from being killed. So my point is, in one incident, 3 good gun owners didn't prevent the massacre. SC got lucky with a good shooter. But not many gun owners are gonna be great shooters. So it doesn't guarantee safer either! I believe your source to be wrong, if he had engaged three cops outside of Pulse it wouldn't have taken two weeks to come out. My point is you are wrong, and using bad sources. I saw one where he traded shots with an officer right outside Pulse, but got in anyway. Then, two other officers engaged him and he went further into the club.

ifmaz -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 3:16:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And in SC one guy had a gun and kept anyone from being killed. So my point is, in one incident, 3 good gun owners didn't prevent the massacre. SC got lucky with a good shooter. But not many gun owners are gonna be great shooters. So it doesn't guarantee safer either! I believe your source to be wrong, if he had engaged three cops outside of Pulse it wouldn't have taken two weeks to come out. My point is you are wrong, and using bad sources. I saw one where he traded shots with an officer right outside Pulse, but got in anyway. Then, two other officers engaged him and he went further into the club. Granted it's Wikipedia, but they have supporting sources: quote: ORIGINAL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting ... On June 11, 2016, Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, was hosting Latin Night, a weekly Saturday night event drawing a primarily Hispanic crowd.[1][2] About 320 people were inside the club, which was serving last call drinks at around 2:00 a.m. EDT on June 12.[3][4] After arriving at the club by van,[5] Omar Mateen approached the building on foot, armed with a SIG Sauer MCX[6] semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol.[3][7][8][9][10][11] A uniformed Orlando Police Department (OPD) officer working extra duty[12] engaged Mateen at 2:02 a.m.[13][14] Mateen was able to enter the building, however, and began shooting patrons.[3][4][14] Two additional officers also engaged Mateen, who then retreated farther into the nightclub and began to take patrons hostage.[3][7][15] About 100 officers from the OPD and the Orange County Sheriff's Office were first dispatched to the scene.[15] ... Reference 13: quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/orlando-nightclub-shooting-emergency-services-respond-reports-gunman-n590446 ... Mina said a uniformed officer working extra duty initially traded gunfire with the shooter, who officials say was armed with at least two firearms. "The officer engaged in a gun battle with that suspect. The suspect at some point went back inside the club, and more shots were fired. This did turn into a hostage situation," Mina said. ... Reference 14: quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160612-snap-story.html ... At the entrance, an armed security guard confronted Mateen at 2:02 a.m. Shots were fired, but whatever happened did not stop Mateen. He stormed into the club just as last call was announced over the microphone. ... There's also the NPR account: quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.npr.org/2016/06/16/482322488/orlando-shooting-what-happened-update ... At 2:02 a.m., according to an FBI timeline, Orlando police received reports that multiple shots had been fired at Pulse. An off-duty officer was working there and "engaged in a gun battle" with the shooter, said Orlando Police Chief John Mina. "The suspect, at some point, went back inside the club, where more shots were fired," Mina said. Additional officers had arrived at 2:04 a.m. and entered Pulse four minutes later, exchanging fire with the attacker. ... This cites the FBI timeline @ https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting

BamaD -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 3:29:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And in SC one guy had a gun and kept anyone from being killed. So my point is, in one incident, 3 good gun owners didn't prevent the massacre. SC got lucky with a good shooter. But not many gun owners are gonna be great shooters. So it doesn't guarantee safer either! I believe your source to be wrong, if he had engaged three cops outside of Pulse it wouldn't have taken two weeks to come out. My point is you are wrong, and using bad sources. I saw one where he traded shots with an officer right outside Pulse, but got in anyway. Then, two other officers engaged him and he went further into the club. Granted it's Wikipedia, but they have supporting sources: quote: ORIGINAL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting ... On June 11, 2016, Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, was hosting Latin Night, a weekly Saturday night event drawing a primarily Hispanic crowd.[1][2] About 320 people were inside the club, which was serving last call drinks at around 2:00 a.m. EDT on June 12.[3][4] After arriving at the club by van,[5] Omar Mateen approached the building on foot, armed with a SIG Sauer MCX[6] semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol.[3][7][8][9][10][11] A uniformed Orlando Police Department (OPD) officer working extra duty[12] engaged Mateen at 2:02 a.m.[13][14] Mateen was able to enter the building, however, and began shooting patrons.[3][4][14] Two additional officers also engaged Mateen, who then retreated farther into the nightclub and began to take patrons hostage.[3][7][15] About 100 officers from the OPD and the Orange County Sheriff's Office were first dispatched to the scene.[15] ... Reference 13: quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/orlando-nightclub-shooting-emergency-services-respond-reports-gunman-n590446 ... Mina said a uniformed officer working extra duty initially traded gunfire with the shooter, who officials say was armed with at least two firearms. "The officer engaged in a gun battle with that suspect. The suspect at some point went back inside the club, and more shots were fired. This did turn into a hostage situation," Mina said. ... Reference 14: quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160612-snap-story.html ... At the entrance, an armed security guard confronted Mateen at 2:02 a.m. Shots were fired, but whatever happened did not stop Mateen. He stormed into the club just as last call was announced over the microphone. ... There's also the NPR account: quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.npr.org/2016/06/16/482322488/orlando-shooting-what-happened-update ... At 2:02 a.m., according to an FBI timeline, Orlando police received reports that multiple shots had been fired at Pulse. An off-duty officer was working there and "engaged in a gun battle" with the shooter, said Orlando Police Chief John Mina. "The suspect, at some point, went back inside the club, where more shots were fired," Mina said. Additional officers had arrived at 2:04 a.m. and entered Pulse four minutes later, exchanging fire with the attacker. ... This cites the FBI timeline @ https://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2016/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting So what we actually have is that he opened fire on the uniformed off duty cop outside because being in uniformed he had identified himself as a threat (kind of like open carry), pinning him down he went on into Pulse and proceeded to kill. Two cops forced thier way in later and he retreated and the killing stopped, not exactly what Greta would have had us believe.

thompsonx -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 8:02:25 PM)
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Not everyone carries a gun. Not all the "good guys" carry a gun. If a "bad guy" is planning to commit a crime, typically, the greatest known threats are removed first. So, if I'm in a bank with a gun at strapped to my waist, who is the bigger threat to a bank heist, me, or someone without a gun? I'd be the first taken out. If I'm carrying concealed, I shouldn't be recognized as a threat, at least not as a threat of a gun fight. What bank allows anyone except uniformed cops to open carrry on thier premisis? Every bank I have been into in the past ten years has had metal detectors at the door. Yes I have seen them go off. What happpens is the lobby seals and internal security shows up. When you plan something (anything, really), you attempt to come up with all sources that pose a risk of failure of the plan. Once those sources are identified, the plan is created to either eliminate those sources, or the plan includes steps to overcome those sources of potential failure. Logic would indicate that a potential bank robber more likely would be detered from the plan if he saw people with guns in the bank. A thug might understand that there might be other shooters where he's attempting some sort of illegal action, he may opt out of the action, especially if the risk of other shooters being present is high enough. If he knows that there will be two other potential shooters, those two will be the first two to be neutralized. The thug will take out every person he knows has a gun that could cause his plan to fail, before he takes out people he thinks might have a gun. Sounds more like a quinten tarantino movie plot more than reality. How often has this particular scenario played out say in the past 100 years?[8\|] As a high school classmate, now a Cleveland, Ohio area police officer told me, "if you open carry, you make yourself a target." Then why do cops open carry?[8\|]

BamaD -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/2/2016 8:07:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And in SC one guy had a gun and kept anyone from being killed. So my point is, in one incident, 3 good gun owners didn't prevent the massacre. SC got lucky with a good shooter. But not many gun owners are gonna be great shooters. So it doesn't guarantee safer either! Your argument that one bad guy will win aganst three bad guys puts you square the Kryptonian school of criminology.

thompsonx -> RE: A different culture point of view of Legalised Guns (7/3/2016 6:42:37 AM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD Your argument that one bad guy will win aganst three bad guys puts you square the Kryptonian school of criminology. One bad guy will win against three bad guys?????[8\|]

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