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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/8/2016 7:31:57 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

How would your "most exculpatory interpretation" deal with the following bon mots.

I don’t feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them, if that’s what you’re asking. Our so-called stealing of this country from them was just a matter of survival. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves.

I believe in white supremacy, until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility.
…
The academic community has developed certain tests that determine whether the blacks are sufficiently equipped scholastically. But some blacks have tried to force the issue and enter college when they haven’t passed the tests and don’t have the requisite background.
[/quote]

I would love to answer you, thompsonx, but I'm concerned this may not be the best thread for it, so I'll stick to the first one. It's also the one that I have pondered a little more frequently during my life thus far.


The first thing I have to say about this quotation, is that it seems impossibly inaccurate, unless the speaker/writer was alive during the age of colonialism and/or westward expansion. It seems to me that it should read "our ancestors" & "the Indians' ancestors". Replacing the subjects of these sentences is not simply a matter of semantics. There is a huge difference between the crimes of the fathers and the crimes of the sons.


The speaker was john wayne in an interview with playboy magazine.

The second thing I have to saw about this quotation, is that broadly speaking, it's true. "Needed" and "selfishly" come across as very subjective descriptions, but there was a conflict, and one of the sides was better equipped than the other, and prevailed.


This simplistic statement tells me that you have very little knowledge of the interaction between the native amerikans and the colonialist.

In the new world, as in the old world, 99% of human history was that of a life nasty, brutish and short.

Opininions vary.


I am under none of Karl May's illusions that my father's ancestors, as opposed to my mother's, were hippies, frolicking about their utopia, interrupting their lacrosse games only for feasts and orgies. There was as much warring, conquest, displacement, extermination, enslavement and rape in the americas as the technology allowed. H. sapiens did this more often than not.


Perhaps you might give some specifics as it might apply to what is now the usa.

The history of humanity, until very recently is the history of sadness and darkness.


Opinions vary.


A few flickers of light in the middle east, India and China nearly burned through this fog, but always burned out or were snuffed. I believe it was the happy accident of having the combination of a printing press, a script amenable to movable type and inheriting a skeptical philosophical tradition (which only barely survived via proxy in arabic) which finally led to the critical mass needed for a light that now belongs to every person on this planet who can read.


Have you got a flag to go along with that parade?

Yes, I think it's a shame that some of the earliest bearers of what would become this light were members of a society slow to take to it, and it's a shame that 2nd millennium european colonialism had a head start on the enlightenment. As to when the enlightenment caught up, some people say 1776, others say 1865, some say 1964.

Some are still waiting

I have as much time for either self-pity or guilt about thunder-sticks, smallpox and firewater as I do for the modern racists who rank injuns somewhere between neanderthal and orang-outan. I'm in the solutions business.


Not that I have noticed.

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/8/2016 10:31:03 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The speaker was John Wayne in an interview with playboy magazine.


I should clarify. I did not mean to accuse you of being original. What I meant by 'impossibly inaccurate' was that there is something that slightly doesn't make sense in someone referring to events that have taken place centuries ago speaking in the first person. Everybody knows what he meant, much in the same way I might say that "we" beat "you" in the men's hockey 2010 olympic final. I just wanted to break that apart since you asked about my most exculpatory interpretation.

I have since read the interview in its entirety. My admiration for John Wayne is undiminished.

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/8/2016 10:45:54 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
This simplistic statement tells me that you have very little knowledge of the interaction between the native americans and the colonists.


I will keep my speculation as to the depth or breadth of your knowledge to myself.
My respect for your intellect, wit and charm is undiminished.
From now on I'll leave your spelling intact when I quote you.

< Message edited by ManOeuvre -- 7/8/2016 10:54:08 PM >

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/8/2016 11:43:37 PM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

I think it would help one of us see the other's point of view better if the terms were defined with some precision. Rather than recourse to wikipedia, or some other arbiter, can you tell me what you mean by gender equality?

I'll second that. How is "gender equality" different from equality, or for that matter how is "social justice" different from justice? I've always been perfectly happy with equality and justice, and suspicious of people who seem to find those terms unsuited to their purposes.

K.




Well... do you know how irritating it is when you ask for "french mustard" and the waiter steps back and says "how is french mustard different from mustard".

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 12:29:20 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
quote:

Dizzy, I disagree with you here.

You are free to do so, yet you are incorrect. Mainstream feminism stands for gender equality, so if you actually do want gender equality, they are your allies. However it seems that most people advocating for men are in fact not interested in equality at all.


Alright Dizzy, you tell me I'm incorrect, I suppose that means you disagree with me? Some of the people who I listen to, read or converse with from time to time who tell me the opposite.

How would a neutral observer go about determining which of these incompatible ideas is closest to the truth?


I'm not sure it's possible to be a "neutral observer" when it comes to issues like this, so my answer is doomed to be biased. But here goes.

A neutral observer would begin by doing some research. The internet is a fine place to do research, but it's not actually designed to open minds, if anything the opposite is true. If you want to get a balanced view of an issue, you have to take active steps to look for balancing arguments and statements. If you don't take those active steps, then you end up searching your way into an echo chamber.

Check out - http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Feminism_101

quote:




I think it would help one of us see the other's point of view better if the terms were defined with some precision. Rather than recourse to wikipedia, or some other arbiter, can you tell me what you mean by gender equality? I don't think I want to commit to being interested in "equality at all" until I know what I'm getting myself into!


I'm sure it's not your intention, but this kind of question is often used intentionally to derail conversations about equality.

Do you believe that men and women should earn the same for the same work?
Do you believe that men and women should have the same opportunities?
Do you believe that men and women should be treated in the same way?

If you do, then you're talking about gender equality.

quote:




I also have a question with regards to what constitutes mainstream feminism. Is the person who penned the article about abolishing custodial sentencing for women a mainstream feminist? She is a professor of social work at the university of Illinois. This doesn't exactly sound like fringe to me, but I don't follow the social sciences terribly closely.


Interestingly, she doesn't say that women should not be given custodial sentences, she says that traditional "prison" is not the right place for them. The distinction will be lost on some, but I'm sure you'll spot it right away. Interestingly, Illinois is the home of an initiative called "Project Redeploy" which seeks to provide alternatives to prison for non-violent offenders of any gender.

Sure, title of the article could mislead, and it's evidently confused at least one of our resident trolls, but the trick is to read into the article.

quote:



My contention with feminism, which I tried to articulate in my initial reply to you, was and is that I think some of the methods that feminism uses or encourages others to use in addressing the male side of gendered issues,


I can't disagree - in that "some" of the methods used by "some" feminists can be counter-productive. But bear in mind, there are plenty of lies and exaggerations out there. The "all sex is rape lie" has been used on this board, it's a bare faced lie, it's been debunked a thousand times, but there are still people who believe it's true, and there are a few who know it's a lie but repeat it over and over as a slur.



quote:



or even in some cases individual issues men and boys deal with that have nothing to do with gender per se, are in some cases ineffective, and in others even counter productive. I think this is because many of the techniques, methods, that people attempt to help each other with are frequently themselves much more applicable to one gender than the other, and in some cases can have the opposite from the desired effect.


I think I'd need some examples of what you're thinking about. There's no doubt that, as a result of social conditioning and natural differences, that different approaches work with different genders, but I'm just not quite sure what point you're making here.




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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 8:29:07 AM   
ManOeuvre


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Status: offline 		crazyml,

You'll have to decide for yourself if my question is designed to derail a conversation about equality. You may choose to cynically regard me as an RM-type agitator or to give me the benefit of the doubt. I would love to move forward with this conversation, learn more, etc.

I think I can really only do that if we can define the terms, rather than give a few examples. I have no intention of being dismissive, disingenuous or disrespectful.

I would very much appreciate it if someone could spell it out in a post in their own words, rather than point me to a wiki. You could even just copy and paste the wiki's opening paragraph if you like, but I think arguments are most defensible when they can be derived from simpler concepts, rather than copied wholesale. No doubt you can do both.

I just feel that too often these conversations result in people talking past one another for no other reason than that they're on different floors.

The reason I'm so stuck on defining the terms is twofold. For one, I don't want to misrepresent myself, or anyone else's point of view. It's very difficult to do that when those points of view are more clearly defined. Perhaps, with clarification, we'll be starting much closer together than we now think, or perhaps further apart. I think we both want to know.

Secondly, I have a hobby which involves talking to people for a short interviews, usually no more than 15 minutes, about a what people know, understand, why that is, etc and defining terms makes certain not only that we're talking about the same thing, but from time to time, my interlocutor or myself will realize that we've never really thought about a given idea with enough precision to define it.

As to your three propositions about women and men, I'm mostly on board with two of them.

As to what I was getting at with respect to differences between the genders and solutions to problems, etc, I'd love to save that for another post. It's a big part of my life, something that I do in my community and I think I may tie it together narratively with the aboriginal issues that have come up in the dialog between thompsonx and myself.

< Message edited by ManOeuvre -- 7/9/2016 8:30:28 AM >

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 8:31:33 AM   
Kaliko


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quote:

Sure, title of the article could mislead, and it's evidently confused at least one of our resident trolls, but the trick is to read into the article


Well, I read the article. Yes, Project Redeploy assists any gender. But other programs mentioned in the article are either partially or entirely focused on women only.

The article states that "Women with small children are given the highest priority for admission to [Women in Recovery]." I hope there's a similar option for men with small children.

The program A New Way of Life's website states "ANWOL provides housing, case management, pro bono legal services, advocacy and policy development on behalf of women rebuilding their lives." I hope there's a similar option for men who are rebuilding their lives.

The article states "The case for closing women’s prisons is built on the experiences of formerly incarcerated women and activists who recognize that women who are mothers and community builders can find their way forward when they respected and supported." I hope that similar attention will be paid to men and their success after incarceration through respect and support.

Now on the one hand, I get it. If a particular group is feeling discriminated against, downtrodden, treated unfairly, then it makes sense that they would band together to become a stronger force. But they can't possibly use the argument of women, as opposed to men, needing support and respect to succeed and then be offended when it's suggested that women don't bring to the workplace table the same qualities that men do. And they can't use the argument of incarcerated women needing to be there for their young children, and then also condemn men for not taking equal parenting responsibility.


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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 9:04:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Really? Does this equality you are happy with also include say; income equality, or financial equality? I am sure you favour equality of opportunity, but what about equality of outcome? Is that included in your equality?
No, I didn't think so, but that just goes to show that sometimes we need to be specific about just what sort of equality we are discussing.


Equality of outcome can not be guaranteed without near complete loss of liberty.


_____________________________

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  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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  • Limited Government
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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 9:34:14 AM   
crazyml


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Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

Sure, title of the article could mislead, and it's evidently confused at least one of our resident trolls, but the trick is to read into the article


Well, I read the article. Yes, Project Redeploy assists any gender. But other programs mentioned in the article are either partially or entirely focused on women only.


The point about the article's title potentially being misleading is that it does not argue that women should not be incarcerated - It argues that they should not be incarcerated in the current prison system.

quote:



The article states that "Women with small children are given the highest priority for admission to [Women in Recovery]." I hope there's a similar option for men with small children.


As do I. Now, it would be interesting to see how many male prison inmates are the sole carers for small children. I'm going to take a wild guess and say I bet that male prison inmates who are the sole carers for small children are outnumbered significantly by female prison inmates that are the sole carers for small children.

Now, what if nether of us can find an example of a program that provides a similar option? What should we do about it? Should we simply close the current programs down? Or should we work change the existing programs or to set up programs that are more inclusive? Or should we flap and whine about the evils of feminism? Which approach do you think is most likely to result in the best outcome?



quote:



The program A New Way of Life's website states "ANWOL provides housing, case management, pro bono legal services, advocacy and policy development on behalf of women rebuilding their lives." I hope there's a similar option for men who are rebuilding their lives.

The article states "The case for closing women’s prisons is built on the experiences of formerly incarcerated women and activists who recognize that women who are mothers and community builders can find their way forward when they respected and supported." I hope that similar attention will be paid to men and their success after incarceration through respect and support.


There are many programs for current and former inmates of all different types, genders, racial backgrounds

quote:



Now on the one hand, I get it. If a particular group is feeling discriminated against, downtrodden, treated unfairly, then it makes sense that they would band together to become a stronger force.


With the best will in the world, there are plenty of facts rather than simply feelings that point to gender discrimination

quote:



But they can't possibly use the argument of women, as opposed to men, needing support and respect to succeed and then be offended when it's suggested that women don't bring to the workplace table the same qualities that men do.


This one came out of the blue... I'm really not sure what point you're making. In terms of being offended when it's suggested that women don't bring the same qualities as men to the workplace table actually, I can think of plenty of examples where such a statement would be stupid and offensive. It depends on the qualities that are actually needed once everyone is at the workplace table - surely?


quote:



And they can't use the argument of incarcerated women needing to be there for their young children, and then also condemn men for not taking equal parenting responsibility.


Of course they can. There's no conflict here at all.

On one hand we have a situation where women are far more likely to be responsible for young children. There is a strong case, particularly in the interests of the children, that those children be considered.

In the meantime, there is a real issue with men not taking equal parenting responsibility, and debate, discussion, and even legal changes (like mandatory shared parenting leave), should all be on the table.




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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 9:34:56 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Equality of outcome can not be guaranteed without near complete loss of liberty.

Not actually true, but it is irrelevant to the point I was making, that Kirata isn't in fact for all equality, just some equality, and thus his remark about there being no need for the term "gender equality" was disingenuous at best, and just some male supremacist bullshit at worse.

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 9:36:49 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

I hope there's a similar option for men with small children.

No there isn't, and you have the patriarchal mindset to blame for that.

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 9:46:38 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Really? Does this equality you are happy with also include say; income equality, or financial equality? I am sure you favour equality of opportunity, but what about equality of outcome? Is that included in your equality?
No, I didn't think so, but that just goes to show that sometimes we need to be specific about just what sort of equality we are discussing.


Equality of outcome can not be guaranteed without near complete loss of liberty.



I agree. There have been plenty of wonderfully optimistic attempts to create societies and social systems that promise equality of outcome, I've not seen any that didn't turn into complete frikken disasters though.

Most of the definitions of gender equality speak to equality of treatment and opportunity

Here's what came up in my google on searching "what is gender equality"

quote:

noun
1.
the state of having the same rights, status, and opportunities as others, regardless of one's gender.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gender-equality

quote:

Gender equality is achieved when women and men enjoy the same rights and opportunities across all sectors of society, including economic participation and decision-making, and when the different behaviours, aspirations and needs of women and men are equally valued and favoured.


http://www.genderequality.ie/en/ge/pages/whatisge

quote:

Gender equality, also known as sex equality, gender egalitarianism, sexual equality, or equality of the genders, is the view that everyone should receive equal treatment and not be discriminated against based on their gender.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_equality



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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 9:58:12 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Check this out...

It is going to fucking blow your mind!

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/25/how_feminism_redefined_rape/

https://mic.com/articles/88277/23-ways-feminism-has-made-the-world-a-better-place-for-men#.kLNecRnyP

http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/08/why-men-need-feminism-3/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/2goek2/what_has_feminism_done_for_mens_rights/

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 11:45:54 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The speaker was john wayne in an interview with playboy magazine.


I should clarify. I did not mean to accuse you of being original.


There is not much that is.

What I meant by 'impossibly inaccurate' was that there is something that slightly doesn't make sense in someone referring to events that have taken place centuries ago speaking in the first person. Everybody knows what he meant, much in the same way I might say that "we" beat "you" in the men's hockey 2010 olympic final. I just wanted to break that apart since you asked about my most exculpatory interpretation.

You have explained that you are a grammar nazi but you have not told me just how you would view those comments in an exculpatory manner.

I have since read the interview in its entirety. My admiration for John Wayne is undiminished.
What is it about unvarnished racism and bigotry that you find admirable?

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 11:52:02 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
This simplistic statement tells me that you have very little knowledge of the interaction between the native americans and the colonists.


I will keep my speculation as to the depth or breadth of your knowledge to myself.


There is no need for speculation. The depth and breadth of my knowledge is apparent in my post.

My respect for your intellect, wit and charm is undiminished.

I will have to try harder.

From now on I'll leave your spelling intact when I quote you.


It would be appreciated. There is nothing I do without purpose.

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 12:40:46 PM   
ManOeuvre


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Joined: 3/2/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


I have since read the interview in its entirety. My admiration for John Wayne is undiminished.
What is it about unvarnished racism and bigotry that you find admirable?



I did not reveal whether or not I admired John Wayne, or how much.

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 12:48:03 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre
ORIGINAL: thompsonx


I have since read the interview in its entirety. My admiration for John Wayne is undiminished.
What is it about unvarnished racism and bigotry that you find admirable?



I did not reveal whether or not I admired John Wayne, or how much.

All but grammar nazis would disagree.
This is not the hallmark of someone who wishes to have a discussion.
If you wish to play word games find someone your own age to play with if not then play with yourself. So unless you have made other plans ,y'all have a nice day.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 2:40:07 PM   
ManOeuvre


Posts: 277
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Status: offline 		I'm sorry, thompsonx.

I meant undiminished, towards both John Wayne and yourself, in the same sense as Cate Blanchett spoke it to Vincent Cassel.

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 4:20:21 PM   
ManOeuvre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

Manoeuvre
I also have a question with regards to what constitutes mainstream feminism. Is the person who penned the article about abolishing custodial sentencing for women a mainstream feminist? She is a professor of social work at the university of Illinois. This doesn't exactly sound like fringe to me, but I don't follow the social sciences terribly closely.

Interestingly, she doesn't say that women should not be given custodial sentences, she says that traditional "prison" is not the right place for them. The distinction will be lost on some, but I'm sure you'll spot it right away. Interestingly, Illinois is the home of an initiative called "Project Redeploy" which seeks to provide alternatives to prison for non-violent offenders of any gender.



I had read the article. I thought the title was a little sensationalist. Clickbait, almost. There is a distinction, that will be lost on some, but I'm sure you'll spot it right away: I was not expressing an opinion about the merits of the article or its proposals. I simply mentioned it because during the first couple of pages I noticed a poster who was otherwise supportive of feminism distance herself from that article in particular.

It was a low moment in my attempt at discourse, and I apologize. I was going for the cheap point.



I need a long signature line because my signature

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RE: Milo says: "Lesbians are terrifying!" - 7/9/2016 4:45:24 PM   
ManOeuvre


Posts: 277
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml (edited for brevity)

Most of the definitions of gender equality speak to equality of treatment and opportunity.
Here's what came up in my google on searching "What is gender equality?"

quote:

noun 1. the state of having the same rights, status, and opportunities as others, regardless of one's gender.

dictionary.com
quote:

Gender equality is achieved when women and men enjoy the same rights and opportunities across all sectors of society, including economic participation and decision-making, and when the different behaviours, aspirations and needs of women and men are equally valued and favoured.

genderequality.ie
quote:

Gender equality, also known as sex equality, gender egalitarianism, sexual equality, or equality of the genders, is the view that everyone should receive equal treatment and not be discriminated against based on their gender.[1]

wikipedia



Thank you, crazyml. I didn't want you to feel too much like you're holding my hand here, but it really helps to know that we're talking about the same thing. Per your comments, that gender equality speaks to equality of treatment and opportunity, I think I support the latter, but not the former.

Consider the wikipedia snippet above. The phrase "discriminated against" requires that another one must be "discriminated in favour of" or the word discriminate, whose latin root leads also to the more plain english "Distinguish", makes no sense. I think that all but the most dogmatically egalitarian person would have a hard time invalidating every positive discrimination on any sort of ethical grounds.

I also appreciated you posting those articles, though "It will blow your mind!" was a bit of an oversell. Also the listicle you slipped in there gives my browser a bit of a headache. I am happy to recognize feminism's historical contributions to humanism in general, but all too often when someone points to some detrimental effect on society, and accuses feminism of being the cause of it, it is too easily for my taste dismissed with either "that has nothing to do with feminism", "That's not true feminism." or "That's only radical feminism." At least nobody says "Feminism works in mysterious ways..."


I need a long signature line because my signature gets

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