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RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 5:54:32 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

but you were talking firearm offences and gun deaths, so undetermined intent and the OTHER cause, were NOT firearms.
Your Uniform Crime Reporting Program is hardly known as the "proper figure wither as reporting is "voluntary"
Even the NCR numbers are based on suspect figures
here read the difference
http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/twomeasures.cfm

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 7/9/2016 5:56:23 AM >

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 21

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 6:05:00 AM

WickedsDesire

Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline

I was just re reading up on Dunblane yesterday...his licenses should clearly have been revoked.

Kirata I can never actually get a clear figure for death by gun in the USA, I think its about 40 000 per annum, perhaps a bit less, perhaps bit more. That's deaths, not injuries, and it is factor of 40 times higher than it is in the UK. For homicide it is a factor of 60 times higher in the US. So imagine my surprise when I read your sophistry.

Personally I await the day one of you gun loving sophists comes on here, or there, and say we love our guns and we think 40 000 death per annum is a small price to pay, expected collateral damage. 40,000 deaths is ridiculously high so here is what we should do and we will do it now because if we wait another ten years then that's another 400 000 but heh doing sod all the last 25 years accounted for approximately 1 million gun deaths.

As for the integrity of huwmans it will be about the same irrespective of their occupations

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 22

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 7:13:04 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I was just re reading up on Dunblane yesterday...his licenses should clearly have been revoked.

Kirata I can never actually get a clear figure for death by gun in the USA, I think its about 40 000 per annum, perhaps a bit less, perhaps bit more. That's deaths, not injuries, and it is factor of 40 times higher than it is in the UK. For homicide it is a factor of 60 times higher in the US. So imagine my surprise when I read your sophistry.

Sophistry: a false argument. That the UK's strict gun laws did not reduce gun crime is documented and therefore not a false argument. You also might want to have a look at the definition of "hyperbole".

Total deaths by firearm in the United States for 2014 including accidents and suicides was 33,599. Total homicides was 13,472 and total firearm homicides was 8,124. The total U.S. population in 2014 was ~317 million, which gives a firearm homicide rate of ~2.56/100k.

CDC WISQARS
FBI UCR

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/9/2016 7:26:54 AM >

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

Post #: 23

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 7:42:01 AM

Edwird

Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I wouldn't want to suggest that you're making shit up, but I'd like to check that claim. Got a link?

K.

No I don't.

I had to change name because the old site lost my info when transforming to this site. Even with the old site, I think they accommodated the last 300 posts as on record.

In the event, you had presented a survey of law enforcement professionals as advocating for increased gun ownership.

I pointed out that the site in question made their money by selling various accessories to this same group, and that their method regarding this survey went against everything taught in any statistics class. Not to mention that such 'targeted sentiment' would improve their sales.

I went to the trouble of displaying how a proper sample would be obtained by way of truly random sampling, using a count of soda and beer cans in the periphery of a grocery store parking lot as example. The primary effort and intended instruction in that regard being that the 5-10 spots targeted for that sample were randomly chosen, as opposed to the in hand and possibly biased opinion of that site's chosen audience.

I recall that your response to that whole effort was to refer to it as "sophistry," but if you say you didn't say that, then . . .

Maybe it wasn't you who said it, but somebody else.

< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/9/2016 7:53:55 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 24

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 7:58:54 AM

Edwird

Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline

But in the immediately preceding post;

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Sophistry: a false argument.

K.

Oh, how timely.

< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/9/2016 8:01:36 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 25

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 8:09:21 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I was just re reading up on Dunblane yesterday...his licenses should clearly have been revoked.

Kirata I can never actually get a clear figure for death by gun in the USA, I think its about 40 000 per annum, perhaps a bit less, perhaps bit more. That's deaths, not injuries, and it is factor of 40 times higher than it is in the UK. For homicide it is a factor of 60 times higher in the US. So imagine my surprise when I read your sophistry.

Personally I await the day one of you gun loving sophists comes on here, or there, and say we love our guns and we think 40 000 death per annum is a small price to pay, expected collateral damage. 40,000 deaths is ridiculously high so here is what we should do and we will do it now because if we wait another ten years then that's another 400 000 but heh doing sod all the last 25 years accounted for approximately 1 million gun deaths.

As for the integrity of huwmans it will be about the same irrespective of their occupations

It is closer to 30,000 two thirds of which were suicides. And before you go on about that is still because of guns remember this, there are about 20 countries with strict gun controls , some in Europe, whose suicide rate alone is greater than our combined suicide and murder rates.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

Post #: 26

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 8:17:26 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

cite? you are wrong.

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(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 27

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 8:41:40 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It is closer to 30,000 two thirds of which were suicides. And before you go on about that is still because of guns remember this, there are about 20 countries with strict gun controls , some in Europe, whose suicide rate alone is greater than our combined suicide and murder rates.

WRONG
According to the WHO for 2012 the US had a 13.7 rate per 100,000 people.
All these "european" countries
had higher suicides than the US.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Iceland
Austria
Czech Republic
France
Croatia
Finland
Serbia
Republic of Moldova
Slovenia
Belgium
Estonia
Montenegro
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Poland
Belarus
Latvia
Russian Federation
Kazakhstan
Hungary
Lithuania

www.who.int/gho/publications/world_health_statistics/2016/whs2016_AnnexA_Suicide.pdf

now other years will take a little longer so I will be back.

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 28

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 8:56:04 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

According to the WHO for 2012 the US had a 13.7 rate per 100,000 people.

I doubt it will make much difference, but just FYI the CDC (WISQARS) reports 40,600 suicide deaths (20,666 by firearm) in a population of 314,112,078 for 2012, giving rates of 12.93/100k and 6.58/100k respectively.

K.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 29

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 8:58:29 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

But in the immediately preceding post;

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Sophistry: a false argument.

Oh, how timely.

And a nice job of quote-trimming, too!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Sophistry: a false argument. That the UK's strict gun laws did not reduce gun crime is documented and therefore not a false argument.

K.

(in reply to Edwird)

Post #: 30

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 9:15:26 AM

WickedsDesire

Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline

I usually cite 30 000 - 40 000. Typing those two figures out still staggers even my mind. Sometimes I plonk for 35 000 as I can never find that squiggly line on my keyboard, and I have looked and looked – I think gypsies stole it
Hyperbole no need to ;) I have to look some stuff up, sometimes re-look it up, as it should be. Although I once looked up chingaree chitlins – bless you Robert Rankin. And, I asked twice in here what the hell is tpe – someone told me and I promptly forgot within a week, although I still have no idea what a nutsukker means – and I have asked and asked. Incidentally sophistry is a little more dangerous than a false argument
If you want me to be pedantic I shall…hmm suicides in the US latest figures of chaos and carnage and mayhem, I believe was 21 000 and some odds and sods (the last 3 digits I cannot remember). And, the two changes we had in gun laws in the aftermath of Dunblane and pretty graphs, from spurious sources, have been utilised by others, better of mind than you, on here-perhaps more dangerous as I am not sure you are ware of what you did/say-they were. Not my mind I lost it a long, long time ago.

Now, back to you original words, and the formulation of your piece of arse spraying mayhem but I found yours words less delightful and opted for sophistry as it embodies the more: dangerous sinister ignoramus and so on
Yeah, it's a shame....

2003: Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane
Gun crime has more than doubled since 1996, the year of the Dunblane massacre, according to the latest Home Office statistics.

2009: Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

By contrast, the U.S. homicide rate which peaked in the early 90's had dropped by almost half in 2010.

It is strange contrast do you think and strangely not like for like? and what you have there is a typical piece is sophistry (yes lucy I know you noticed)

That's deaths, not injuries, and it is factor of 40 times higher than it is in the UK. For homicide it is a factor of 60 times higher in the US (than the Uk). Do you know what a factor is, or ratio?. I most definitely compared like for like. Incidentally its about 0.05-0.06 per 100 000 depending what figures you use in the UK

Anyway there is another 30 minutes of my life I am not getting back

(in reply to Edwird)

Post #: 31

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 9:24:42 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I usually cite 30 000 - 40 000. Typing those two figures out still staggers even my mind. Sometimes I plonk for 35 000 as I can never find that squiggly line on my keyboard, and I have looked and looked – I think gypsies stole it
Hyperbole no need to ;) I have to look some stuff up, sometimes re-look it up, as it should be. Although I once looked up chingaree chitlins – bless you Robert Rankin. And, I asked twice in here what the hell is tpe – someone told me and I promptly forgot within a week, although I still have no idea what a nutsukker means – and I have asked and asked. Incidentally sophistry is a little more dangerous than a false argument
If you want me to be pedantic I shall…hmm suicides in the US latest figures of chaos and carnage and mayhem, I believe was 21 000 and some odds and sods (the last 3 digits I cannot remember). And, the two changes we had in gun laws in the aftermath of Dunblane and pretty graphs, from spurious sources, have been utilised by others, better of mind than you, on here-perhaps more dangerous as I am not sure you are ware of what you did/say-they were. Not my mind I lost it a long, long time ago.

Now, back to you original words, and the formulation of your piece of arse spraying mayhem but I found yours words less delightful and opted for sophistry as it embodies the more: dangerous sinister ignoramus and so on
Yeah, it's a shame....

2003: Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane
Gun crime has more than doubled since 1996, the year of the Dunblane massacre, according to the latest Home Office statistics.

2009: Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

By contrast, the U.S. homicide rate which peaked in the early 90's had dropped by almost half in 2010.

It is strange contrast do you think and strangely not like for like? and what you have there is a typical piece is sophistry (yes lucy I know you noticed)

That's deaths, not injuries, and it is factor of 40 times higher than it is in the UK. For homicide it is a factor of 60 times higher in the US (than the Uk). Do you know what a factor is, or ratio?. I most definitely compared like for like. Incidentally its about 0.05-0.06 per 100 000 depending what figures you use in the UK

Anyway there is another 30 minutes of my life I am not getting back

For us to have 60 times the murder rate as the UK, murder rate not firearm murder rate the UK murder rate would have to be just over .5% and you know it is higher than that. 20 years ago our murder rate was almost 10x the UK rate, now it is just under 4 looks like we are gaining ground on you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

Post #: 32

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 10:07:09 AM

WickedsDesire

Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline

Gun deaths....Not death by potato masher...personally I want to go out being ravished by a pack or rampaging big breasted nymphomaniacs in finest corsetry and boots, and to lose count at about 342.5, when the delirium sets in.

Murder rates you are 4 times higher although the US figures seems more than a little of to me.
Murder/homicide:
US 12 253 surely you cannot just shoot each other where is the sport in that- what was the death homicide by gun in 2013 anyone i the USA?
UK (was 601) which would have been 3000 if we had the same population

well fuk me lets see if we can beat you at suicides. Alas nope. You best us by that a factor of 2 and I know we cannot best you for kids accidentally blowing their parents brains all over the place

Death by gun in America is far too high, and then some. Only the barking mad and sophists argue otherwise

And remind me never to go to Honduras

< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 7/9/2016 10:08:37 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 33

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 10:15:41 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I usually cite 30 000 - 40 000. Typing those two figures out still staggers even my mind.

Citing raw numbers fails to make a point (one might even call it sophistry) where there are vast differences in the sizes of one country versus another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Now, back to you original words, and the formulation of your piece of arse spraying mayhem but I found yours words less delightful and opted for sophistry as it embodies the more: dangerous sinister ignoramus and so on

Trying learning English.

1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Yeah, it's a shame....

2003: Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane
Gun crime has more than doubled since 1996, the year of the Dunblane massacre, according to the latest Home Office statistics.

2009: Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

By contrast, the U.S. homicide rate which peaked in the early 90's had dropped by almost half in 2010.

It is strange contrast do you think and strangely not like for like? and what you have there is a typical piece is sophistry (yes lucy I know you noticed)

Yeah, Lucy had a point. But all I was trying to show was that gun crime increased even with the UK's strict gun laws, while gun crime in the U.S. decreased. I used homicides as a proxy without looking further because owning a firearm is legal here, so right there is a whole class of offenses that don't exist in the U.S. and I didn't think the numbers would be a fair comparison. But here they are:

Firearm Violence, 1993-2011
Firearm-related homicides declined 39%, from 18,253 in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011.
Nonfatal firearm crimes declined 69%, from 1.5 million victimizations in 1993 to 467,300 victimizations in 2011.

By contrast:

Murders and killings in England and Wales have increased to their highest level for five years, figures show. ~BBC, January 2016

And here's another consequence of people not being able to defend themselves or their homes (2010):

England has worse crime rate than the US, says Civitas study
England and Wales has one of the worst crime rates among developed nations for rapes, burglaries and robberies, a major report has found.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

That's deaths, not injuries, and it is factor of 40 times higher than it is in the UK. For homicide it is a factor of 60 times higher in the US (than the Uk). Do you know what a factor is, or ratio?. I most definitely compared like for like. Incidentally its about 0.05-0.06 per 100 000 depending what figures you use in the UK

The only data I found reported a UK homicide rate of 1.43/100k for 2011/2012. Lucy's figures for 2015 give a rate of 0.9/100k assuming a population of 64 million. The latest figures I have at hand for the U.S. (2013) report a homicide rate of 3.9/100k. So after you learn English, maybe you should try learning arithmetic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Anyway there is another 30 minutes of my life I am not getting back

If your posts are any evidence, most of your life is wasted.

K.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

Post #: 34

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 10:20:11 AM

Edwird

Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

But in the immediately preceding post;

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Sophistry: a false argument.

Oh, how timely.

And a nice job of quote-trimming, too!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Sophistry: a false argument. That the UK's strict gun laws did not reduce gun crime is documented and therefore not a false argument.

K.

Whot? are you incriminating all the Chinese math teachers inhabiting the seventh floor of a down town abode that rents for cheap at my former uni?

I can tell you right now, sir, that the Chinese statistics teacher ( "I hope you understan me OK") I was subjected to taught me as much about the world as anyone else, strictly keeping to her math, no ideological nonsense about it.

But I believe in hearing from all sides, so you are welcome to weigh in as to how all the math departments in the world, of various ethnicities, are preaching "sophistry.'

Here's the news;

If you don't like statistics as taught at the uni, then don't use them here.

It only makes you look stupid.

< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/9/2016 10:21:59 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 35

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 10:35:28 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

It only makes you look stupid.

At this point you're the only one making himself look stupid.

K.

(in reply to Edwird)

Post #: 36

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 10:39:04 AM

Edwird

Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline

So you hated the math department at your university.

Don't feel alone there.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 37

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 10:43:43 AM

Edwird

Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline

All I can say is, I answered to much better thinkers in the math and econ departments than in my one semester nightmare in an English class.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 38

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 10:56:34 AM

WickedsDesire

Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline

How dare thee god sir, I cite only pure muffin I will have your chardonnay collection and fifty of your women folk for that. I see the word perplexed you a little and you have been scrambling about to behold its full awe and muffin shock. No matter perhaps you will get there one day.
Citing raw numbers fails to make a point (one might even call it sophistry) (look can someone help me out with this one?) oh edwird thanks
I cited like for like and nothing else and I can assure you I factored in the population difference.
My figures are very good and pretty accurate and they tell no lies, no tall tales or sophistry..I encounter it more often than not on all places – why they do not love me – and that is truly a shame and I give the world you, a classical example, and your numbers are the many – I know edwird sees this

You do not even know what you are doing or saying – do you – boy you are in deep, lie after lie, untruth, dangerous malarkey. and, many will behold your words with weight and value and agree (see edwird hmm)

and then you splendiferous ending is personal insult, and not a very good one at that,

Sighs brb shop cheap bottle of Chardonnay time

(in reply to Edwird)

Post #: 39

RE: American Police above the Law... - 7/9/2016 11:18:25 AM

Lookin4Lace

Posts: 87
Joined: 5/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: closetoyou

as a retired Police Officer in the U.K I am absolutely disgusted , as any right minded person, any colour, of the continuing ruthless actions of the officers.
they are a law unto themselves, and should be brought to justice ,, not mob rule, someone there must do something.

Hmm kinda compairing apples to oranges there dont you think?

In 2008 the USA had 1.1 Million officers inresidency

UK had 126,818 in 2015 when you get to our statistic then we'll compair stats, yes there are bad apples here im not going to dismiss that notion but your force isnt as squeeky clean either

(in reply to closetoyou)

Post #: 40

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