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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/15/2016 9:12:21 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1
I don't think you're English, but let me tell you that while you think you've hit the nail on the head you have absolutely no idea how spot on you are in relation to this country.
I'm an Aussie and I'm afraid these fuckers show up anywhere there's a middle class and a socialist left.

In New Zealand, for example, one of the effete leaders of the Labour party apologised for being a man. Because men are like... bad... and evil... and shit. The result, of course, is that the Labour Party is an utterly spent force in New Zealand. The people hate the ruling National Party who are effectively your conservatives who piss on the poor while giving tax breaks to business, but they fucking despise the Labour Party who babble on about political quotas for women and other feminist bollocks.

Labour had a run of 9 years in power under the iron-grip of Helen Clarke. Since she was defeated in 2008, the National Party have had it easy because Labour are so fucking hopeless. They've completely forgotten their working class roots and keep bleating on with the usual bunch of leftist victim-hood mantras. Men are evil. Women are so poor and downtrodden (domestic violence laws in NZ are a fucking joke - the cops just arrest men without even pretending there's an option to do otherwise), we must stop violence against women (but fuck the men because... well, they're men), we must get 50% representation of women in politics and so on.

Needless to say, Labour won't be back in power any time in the next decade. Chardonnay socialists are fucking useless to the people and the people loathe them.

quote:


We have boat loads of pseudo-liberals who really think they're with 'the poor' because they've been to Africa or somewhere, and then retire to middle-class suburbia surrounded by white faces and people just like them, drinking shite wine and talking utter shite.

We have loads of the fuckers to the point of it being improbable. It's just some freak of nature. We have a few on this board. 'Think they're liberals yet hold nothing but contempt for the working classes.
Yes, I know the ones you mean. They like to pretend they're experts in politics too. The irony amuses me.

quote:


These people think the working classes are stupid and being led 'round the block by Farage.

The irony being that while we're not fans of Farage, who will never be one of us, we despise these middle-class liberals who believe they're championing our cause.

They're monumental fuckin' idiots. And, if a big truck ran them all over, we'd turn the truck 'round for another go at them to make sure the job was done.

And, you're right. They're useless. All piss and wind.

These fuckers are more interested in telling people how they should think and speak than they are about addressing the country's maladies. They care more about pronouns for trans-genders than they do about employment, a social safety net or education. They care more about how many female characters are in video games than they do about the poor's access to health care. They are, the most godawful useless wastes of oxygen ever produced and they're largely the product of liberal arts degrees. You know... the fucking useless degrees.


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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/15/2016 9:31:28 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Actually the left/right political/economy debate creates a very useful partisanship serving the function of distracting the masses
Absolutely right. The left/right fiction is an attempt at creating two tribes with the idea that if they throw rocks at each other, they won't actually think for themselves.

Real political ideas are significantly more complex. You have the question of authoritarian vs libertarian views on culture. Capitalism vs collectivism. Laissez faire capitalism vs government intervention. Secular government vs theocracy. Privileges for women vs equality. Full-reserve banking vs fractional reserve banking. Open borders vs closed borders. Socialised infrastructure vs private enterprise and so on.

By identifying as part of a tribe, people become more malleable and stop thinking for themselves. The left/right political axis is a tool designed to enable that. It oversimplifies the world to stop people asking uncomfortable questions. It implies that if you agree with someone on one thing, you should agree with them on everything. It is, a specious fiction designed to manipulate the masses - nothing more.

It is, of course, no coincidence that it's heavily promoted by Chardonnay socialists.

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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/15/2016 10:40:18 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Actually the left/right political/economy debate creates a very useful partisanship serving the function of distracting the masses
Absolutely right. The left/right fiction is an attempt at creating two tribes with the idea that if they throw rocks at each other, they won't actually think for themselves.

Real political ideas are significantly more complex. You have the question of authoritarian vs libertarian views on culture. Capitalism vs collectivism. Laissez faire capitalism vs government intervention. Secular government vs theocracy. Privileges for women vs equality. Full-reserve banking vs fractional reserve banking. Open borders vs closed borders. Socialised infrastructure vs private enterprise and so on.

By identifying as part of a tribe, people become more malleable and stop thinking for themselves. The left/right political axis is a tool designed to enable that. It oversimplifies the world to stop people asking uncomfortable questions. It implies that if you agree with someone on one thing, you should agree with them on everything. It is, a specious fiction designed to manipulate the masses - nothing more.

It is, of course, no coincidence that it's heavily promoted by Chardonnay socialists.

On that last, no, it is coincidence at all as long as we define the so-called Chardonnay socialist as the liberal elites for whom real political action is only so much getting-their-hands-dirty and instead who write a small check and watch the 99%ers hit wall street on CNN while perusing their portfolios.

As a demographic complement at least in numbers, is the Fox news addict who believes every word while the corporate/bankers laugh all of the way to glorious returns while the pols on both sides, are...in their pocket.

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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/16/2016 3:18:26 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

By identifying as part of a tribe, people become more malleable and stop thinking for themselves. The left/right political axis is a tool designed to enable that. It oversimplifies the world to stop people asking uncomfortable questions. It implies that if you agree with someone on one thing, you should agree with them on everything. It is, a specious fiction designed to manipulate the masses - nothing more.

It is, of course, no coincidence that it's heavily promoted by Chardonnay socialists.


quote:

On that last, no, it is coincidence at all as long as we define the so-called Chardonnay socialist as the liberal elites for whom real political action is only so much getting-their-hands-dirty and instead who write a small check and watch the 99%ers hit wall street on CNN while perusing their portfolios.


Heh. Funny how different a take different people can have. I don't suppose it will be a great surprise that my view is the polar opposite to that of Awareness. In my view all that happens if you don't understand these standard terms is that you get used. You've made a virtue out of ignorance and the likelihood is that you'll suffer for it.

For instance, For me, there is *no protection* from tribalism if you're incapable of seeing that the basics of what have been going on politics for an eternity are still very much operating. Yep, those basics really do include the notions of left and right wing, as well as a number of others. Without such notions - the tools by which people have been analysing politics for centuries - you put yourself at the mercy of those in power (right or left wing) who will want to persuade you to their cause without your realising where their cause will actually end up.

In the USA there seems to be an explosion of support for Trump, in part because he's managed to cast himself as 'the outsider' and 'not part of politics as usual'. It's somewhat similar here in the UK - our very own Nigel Farage being the distinctly British version. In both cases the support-base smacks to me of many of those who see themselves as 'outside' the standard categories, and who are somehow free of the influences of those standard categories. They're wrong, of course. The Trump supporter who claims he's neither right nor left wing but just a 'lover of America' just shows he needs to learn some basic stuff - like his British equivalent. Me, I look at Trump, see a right wing populist (two bog-standard categories, there) ... and can predict what he'll do next. He's not surprised me so far. Likewise Farage, over here - up to and including his departure from the UKIP leadership after the vote had been won. It wouldn't surprise most people who knew what the terms 'right wing' and 'populist' meant, and have been able to identify right wing populists elsewhere and in the past. (Re all that: I hope it's just a Facebook joke that Trump's supporters went online in their millions to look up the word 'demagogue'.)

We certainly do have those 'chardonnay socialists'. I see this not just in the increasingly anti-left Guardian newspaper (which has always considered itself left/liberal) with its favoured columnists' relentless attacks on the left wing leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, but also in the Labour Party itself. To put it roughly, the grassroots membership had supported Corbyn's leadership, but the Labour MPs are generally to the right of him and want him out. They're trying to stage a coup to get rid of him. In the process they've done such things as attempt to keep his name off the list of those standing in an election of a new leader (mainly because they know that Corbyn would only win again). And then there's the new £25 charge for labour members who want to vote in the leadership election - which will, of course, deter the Corbyn supporters, many of whom are less wealthy.

All this stuff is steeped in the vanity of those for whom terms like right and left wing, and authoritarian, have become woolly in their heads. The party's MPs refer to themselves as 'moderates' rather than right wing; or they're 'centrists' (never mind that the 'centre' here has been moving further to the right for decades since Thatcher). Or they like to think it's really about electoral success (they don't like Corbyn simply because they can't see him winning an election). But what they seem almost breathtakingly unaware of is just how right wing and authoritarian (there's another category) they look to the grassroots membership that voted for Corbyn. This, at a time when there's such a strong mood of bitterness against the 'professional political class' in this country. Way to create even more bitterness .... Other standard terms, like 'elitism', certainly also apply, natch.

For me, though, this isn't the only tribe that's been busily buggering up our country of late. The one that's come to the fore most recently is that of the Farage-type Brexiter. These aren't the left wing sorts who voted Brexit because of the EU's neoliberal regime; because of it's coldness, aloofness and apparently exclusive concern for the metropolitan elite (and particularly in the south). That, I get. I'm genuinely baffled as to how they think that they'll have escaped those neoliberal forces just by our country quitting the EU, but that's another story. What I do find difficult to respect is those people who have what, to me, seems like such a woolly grasp of their 'tools of political analysis' - like those of 'liberty', 'patriotism' and 'nationalism', that people like Farage have been able to harness them to his cause. I mean, really, how can you respect the minds behind those many Facebook pages that have been set up recently by 'patriots' who supported Brexit and have made the Union Jack their masthead? Because of this Brexit there may well not *be* a Great Britain any more, should the Scots gain their independence as a result of it; thus the UnIon Jack itself could be consigned to history.

These sorts of events happen not of course entirely, but in part, because people don't apply the required analysis to what's going on politics and this happens, again in part, because they've not equipped themselves with the analytical tools to do so. Ignorance is not a virtue in politics. Not knowing what terms like 'left' and 'right' mean in politics is like not knowing what 'plus' and 'minus' means in mathematics. Likewise 'freedom', 'patriotism' 'nationalism' and so on. Very little about even the basics of politics is taught here in the UK at school - and I think we see the negative results of that one hell of a lot.



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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/16/2016 4:28:15 AM   
Edwird


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Edwird
First you say how great Germany is for being able to buy good merchandise at a good price, and now you turn around and immediately find something to complain about."

quote:

Edwird, you are behaving juvenile and also again your response does not make any sense.


For someone who is the biggest cheerleader for a complete buffoon as president for the US, I'm not sure you have the best idea what juvenile means in English. A juvenile mentality would be an upgrade for Trump.


quote:

I made no complaint. I simply said as a matter of fact that Germans graduate later in life than Americans. Perhaps I am outdated about German education now,


No, you just don't have a clue at all, you are only talking about a few uni students in your limited experience.

quote:

And it just make sense that by the time germans graduate, versus the same age band where americans have been working for some time already. Americans would have more spending power by then. That's all i am saying.

This assumes you have a clue what you're talking about.

quote:

Your argument was that Americans has no spending power because they got student loan debt correct? I am simply demostrating that within the same age group, Americans have the same or even more spending power as germans as students. So it makes no difference in the end. When germans graduate, they have no debt, if you say their education is completely free for higher education, I don't know how true this is, but then, they would have just their first job and starting pay. The american worker would have already been working a few years, and I would assume, like most normal graduates, they get pay increments. It would reach the same spending capacity and place.


If you are only talking about university graduates, you're still a bit off. For Bachelor degrees the difference is one year at the most. But the bigger thing is that Germany has less a percentage of students at the university than the US and some other countries because they educate and train their non-uni students much better than most other countries, so they have people in the workforce after 10 or 12 or 14 years of school, and with better average pay within a given job skill level, all with no debt.

I didn't say the US uni grads have NO spending power, but it's a lot less spending power (for 5-10 yrs.) than in countries having low or no cost higher education.

The other major item that imposes on spending power of American workers at every level even after school debt is paid off is that healthcare is 50% higher than for the next highest country.

In any case, blnymph set us all straight on the education system in Deutscheland so every detail of what you used to make a point is wrong. So you have no point.

quote:

The problem with the US are the taxes. No idea why you guys pay the same tax as socialist countries, but get zero socialist benefits.


Why do you keep spouting idiocy? In the first place, it's social benefits, not "socialist benefits."

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/

"It shows personal tax rates on $100,000 around the world. The U.S. comes in at 55th out of 114.

As for the richest one or two percentiles of earners ($300,000), we come in at practically the same place: 53rd-highest."

The last chart shows that in the OECD only three countries pay lower taxes as percentage of GDP than the US.


quote:

We don't get socialist benefits,


Please. Shut. Up. You're not at a Trump rally, here. Of course you don't get "socialist benefits," you get social benefits.

You have streets and roads, infrastructure, airports, free schools, etc. Higher education and healthcare are much cheaper in Singapore than in the US -because of government contribution-. As everyone except you (or others at a Trump rally) knows, 'not completely free' does not equate to "no socialist benefits."





< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/16/2016 4:55:49 AM >

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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 2:36:57 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		All this talk about the 'real' working class versus the 'pseudo' working class is ridiculous. Left leaning philandrophists are from all walks of life and the good thing about ubiquity is, it really does make working class Brits more powerful. Slate them all you want but without them, no one else cares.

Maybe people need to remind themselves that the one thing these people have in common with you is, they are just ‘ordinary people’ who want fairness for the blue collar workers of this country.



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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 4:32:28 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

For someone who is the biggest cheerleader for a complete buffoon as president for the US, I'm not sure you have the best idea what juvenile means in English. A juvenile mentality would be an upgrade for Trump.

You were juvenile with that statement. And yes, Trump can be juvenile at times. Older men can be juvenile too ya know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
In any case, blnymph set us all straight on the education system in Deutscheland so every detail of what you used to make a point is wrong. So you have no point.

Masters is not a 1 year different thing. So the fact that Bachelor Degrees are a new happening, and the options to Germans all the while were either Masters or PHDs. I was right. That's why their education was so long. The only misunderstanding is the germans don't understand they are actually obtaining a higher education than just a bachelor. And when we were talking about it, they thought it's similar to a bachelor degree at that time. Also their apprentice trade program also has late graduation from the US. I think my point still stands.
quote:

I didn't say the US uni grads have NO spending power, but it's a lot less spending power (for 5-10 yrs.) than in countries having low or no cost higher education.

This is only accurate IF you agree with me that US pays the same tax as socialist countries, and those countries get all the free shit, and US does not, and yet pay the same tax rate. But IF socialist countries after starting work, as to pay shitty high taxes, then I'd say their spending power is back to the same. As what they pay extra for tax is what Americans pay for their student loan. I mean, US has like the complicated Federal Tax and State Tax, usually the combination for some states can worst than socialist country tax.

And by the way, 55th out of 114, considering comparing personal tax rate with socialist countries inside, is very high! Ya should be one of the lowest!

quote:

The last chart shows that in the OECD only three countries pay lower taxes as percentage of GDP than the US

I was looking at the graph you showed. First of all, you are not the fourth lowest taxes, it says you are on the 25% lower percentile. The graph only chose selected countries to feature but did not mention every country in the world in that graph. But if you look at all the countries above you. They are mainly countries with strong socialist benefits, and most of them do practice free healthcare.
So I would look at this, as a country with zero free education and healthcare, you should be rock bottom, but you are not.
quote:

You have streets and roads, infrastructure, airports, free schools, etc. Higher education and healthcare are much cheaper in Singapore than in the US -because of government contribution-. As everyone except you (or others at a Trump rally) knows, 'not completely free' does not equate to "no socialist benefits."

We don't have free schools. Higher education is not cheaper than the US. How is it cheaper? A regular Bachelor still is about 35k average for government universities and that's after so-called subsidises, it's the same price some lesser known US Universities without subsides, since we are foreigners and we would be quoted the most expensive of it, and local universities , only top 10% to 20% grades can make it inside. And private universities are easily 60k to 100k for a bachelor. Which 80% of the population goes to if they want higher education, as we only have 3 or 4 government Universities available, which can't cater to most Singaporeans.

General Universities in the US are so cheap. When I was researching studying in the US as a teenager, I could not believe how cheap tuition was over there for some of their University. Not for Harvard and stuffs, the super prestigious ones are expensive, all over the world. But there are many ordinary Universities that are dirt cheap. Just that in the end, I chose Australia as I love it there more, Asian food more authentic for one. But my own brother chose the US. On top of that, my brother got scholarship there by the 2nd year, as a foreigner in the US, and he didn't even needed financial funding from my parents anymore from 2nd year on wards. Scholarships that no way if he had stayed in Singapore he could have gotten. According to my brother, who have stayed and studied in the US till PHD level, considering his been in the US for 15 years now, since 18, went University there and never came back, he feels education there is much cheaper, and he often says that if he didn't do that, he'd be ridden with debt doing this in Singapore. He said US has so many types of program you can get into to get a free education, although not government funded programs, by private companies but the amount of scholarships available are immense.

I think you guys pay a stupid ridiculous amount of taxes for like barely any benefit. Even your GST equivalent is very expensive when I was in California. 55th out of 100plus countries, is pretty bad. Because you don't have the free education and heathcare element.

And still don't understand why US has the most expensive health care in the world. We pay low taxes and we have government hospitals with cheaper healthcare although you don't get the latest medicine or technology, for example, birth control pills, if I want to get it from the cheap government clinic, I pay only 1.50 per mth, but I must go in every single mth and get my blood pressure checked, to get my next pack. I go private clinic and I pay $18 a mth for a pack, they can happily issue me for 10 years of supplies if I wanted to. Government subsidised healthcare is usually too much hassle to use, as just to get my $1.50 birth control pill, I have to wait for 3 hours for my turn for the doc to check my blood pressure. Majority of the population will go private if they can afford it. But you guys pay higher taxes, and don't even have that. Plus more expensive medical care than socialist countries. Which is the craziest part. I mean, as foreigner who wants to get healthcare overseas maybe due to a reputable surgeon, we pay the full extent of it, and it's much cheaper in Australia and the UK or even Canada than to go for the US. Doesn't make sense. The most puzzling one is the UK, because, their pounds are strong and it's cheaper than going to the US.

High taxes, in deep debt, high cost of healthcare. To me, US is one of the worst nations at managing their money. The government that is.




< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/17/2016 4:42:04 AM >

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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 5:21:49 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

All this talk about the 'real' working class versus the 'pseudo' working class is ridiculous. Left leaning philandrophists are from all walks of life and the good thing about ubiquity is, it really does make working class Brits more powerful. Slate them all you want but without them, no one else cares.

Maybe people need to remind themselves that the one thing these people have in common with you is, they are just ‘ordinary people’ who want fairness for the blue collar workers of this country.



I like this:)
Also just for "fun"



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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 5:23:17 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
All this talk about the 'real' working class versus the 'pseudo' working class is ridiculous.

Yes, but it's still very popular with inverted snobs, and the sort of retro-Marxist who hasn't noticed any cultural, economic or political changes that have taken place since the late '60s. Besides, if being ridiculous was any bar to political arguments, nobody would still be insisting that trickle down theory worked, would they?

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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 6:00:51 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
All this talk about the 'real' working class versus the 'pseudo' working class is ridiculous.

Yes, but it's still very popular with inverted snobs, and the sort of retro-Marxist who hasn't noticed any cultural, economic or political changes that have taken place since the late '60s. Besides, if being ridiculous was any bar to political arguments, nobody would still be insisting that trickle down theory worked, would they?


The workers compete with the foreman, the foreman competes with those who no longer need to labor and nobody achieves anything because there simply isn’t enough jobs or wages to go round. I can appreciate competition not only takes place between classes but within them as well. The foreman is a different sort of working class to the laborer and the man who made good is rejected by the laborers but still tied by his roots of a working class system.

I was brought up to be working class but I did okay for myself. Does my profession move me into a different class system. Do I have the right to feel empathy towards the factory worker who earns a pittance ?


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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 6:59:33 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		Of course you do, but sadly there's asshats out there who'll insist that you're a class traitor because moving into a field that actually pays rather than sitting around on the dole is a betrayal of your heritage.
(The notion of competition within the working class itself, rather than the whole proletariat being unified against the posh scum from outside is a particularly sore point for the sort of cretin who likes to blather about pseudo working class fakes, in my experience.)

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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 7:14:40 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
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Status: offline 		Has no idea who Teresa(is that her name) May is and I always forgot Camerons name...and they gave Boris the foreign minister thingy - the second most important job or is it the third? ( I view boris as more dangerous than trump - on account he is far from a half fit – a dangerous mind with a brain is a dangerous person – trust me some stuff I do actually know ;)…or is it a dangerous mind with no brain, or fixed brain bereft of a molecule, atom even, and what the hell is a quark…..

Other than that I am not sure which side track to follow, and which to approach with my knoberrie (which I have not brandished in a while) and it hungers.

Pauses to sip his afternoon water (tastes suspiciously like Chardonnay)

King (Queen Nicola) of the North (does that make the Scottish widlings- and the roman empire actually built two walls – albeit the antonine wall is not much to look at unlike my glorious man parts *winks at the ladies.

Game of Thrones "Jon Snow - The King of The North" Scene Season 6 Episode 10 Scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9GKGkfK8U (although battle of the bastards was perhaps the best tv episode I have ever saw)

Many people do not understand there is a vast disparity in how Scottish people think as opposed to a good half of England. Its not that we think gawd no not another women(thatchers was fuklng mad trust me - ms may is not) - we view them as equals most of us here, and not the feebler of the sexes.

Many people do not understand the mad fuks played the scare mongering card at the Scottish independence referendum-they played a few, but one was you will not be part of europe/eu etc - and some the Scottish people are gullible easily lead by sophists. Some things I will not tolerate, ever, and that is sophists playing on the gullible, weak and stupid.

Smiles at Michelle - she is not on here, and a little lost, I hope not forever - but she is a lovely person (actually shes dammed beautiful and intelligent in many ways - just not some ways) and has endured a few men/sophists etc as this thread is about women I suppose.

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RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 1:04:19 PM   
Edwird


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Joined: 5/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
In any case, blnymph set us all straight on the education system in Deutscheland so every detail of what you used to make a point is wrong. So you have no point.


Masters is not a 1 year different thing. So the fact that Bachelor Degrees are a new happening, and the options to Germans all the while were either Masters or PHDs. I was right. That's why their education was so long. The only misunderstanding is the germans don't understand they are actually obtaining a higher education than just a bachelor. And when we were talking about it, they thought it's similar to a bachelor degree at that time. Also their apprentice trade program also has late graduation from the US. I think my point still stands.


That is just too bizarre, even for you. I didn't say Masters was a "one year different thing," I meant that Bachelor-Bachelor was at most one year's difference from Germany to US. You were comparing apples to broccoli, and still insist on doing that. So no, you are absolutely wrong.

"Also their apprentice trade program also has late graduation from the US." No it does not. As I stated, it can be 10 or 12 or 14 years, depending on trade/job skill. The US has slapdash scattershot education/training for those jobs, meaning many times hardly at all, but either 12 or 14 years in any case, so the German average would be less time. So again, you are absolutely wrong, because you keep making shit up in your head, and are incapable of reading plain facts in front of you.


quote:

I didn't say the US uni grads have NO spending power, but it's a lot less spending power (for 5-10 yrs.) than in countries having low or no cost higher education.


quote:

This is only accurate IF you agree with me that US pays the same tax as socialist countries, and those countries get all the free shit, and US does not, and yet pay the same tax rate. But IF socialist countries after starting work, as to pay shitty high taxes, then I'd say their spending power is back to the same.


I addressed the cost of healthcare situation below, and so your idiotic presumptions above show that you can't do simple math. Paying a higher tax for free health care (which is not free, just paid for with taxes) vs. paying lower tax but having to pay for it with high insurance rates with high deductibles and high co-pays for the most expensive doctors and hospitals on the planet by 50% means that those other countries have more to spend on other things. That is, compared to just the next most expensive country for healthcare (with no further cost beyond taxes), their higher taxes due to healthcare are less (noticeably less) than the total of high insurance/high deductible/high co-pay for very expensive healthcare. More spending power.

quote:

And by the way, 55th out of 114, considering comparing personal tax rate with socialist countries inside, is very high! Ya should be one of the lowest!


I think you must have misread the label and mistakenly took the 1,000mg stupid pills today instead of the 200mg.

quote:

The last chart shows that in the OECD only three countries pay lower taxes as percentage of GDP than the US.


quote:

I was looking at the graph you showed. First of all, you are not the fourth lowest taxes, it says you are on the 25% lower percentile.


From the article, the heading above that graph: "Here's how the U.S. stacks up to other OECD countries in a graph from the Tax Policy Center. (We're at the bottom of the stack, 25 percent below the average.)"

Please bold for us where the word "percentile" appears in that statement? The graph shows that the OECD average tax/GDP is 36.2% and that for the US is 27.3%, which is (take a guess!) 25 percent lower than the OECD average. And yes, fourth lowest of OECD countries.

quote:

You have streets and roads, infrastructure, airports, free schools, etc. Higher education and healthcare are much cheaper in Singapore than in the US -because of government contribution-. As everyone except you (or others at a Trump rally) knows, 'not completely free' does not equate to "no socialist benefits."


quote:

We don't have free schools.


Every primary and secondary school have fees, but free tuition, just like Singapore, in almost every country. I was talking about tuition. The highest total fees I found for the year in Singapore for government schools (on their site) is $177 (SGD) which is US $131. Do you think that covers the cost of the teachers and books and the buildings, or does the government through in a few dollars for that?

quote:

Higher education is not cheaper than the US. How is it cheaper? A regular Bachelor still is about 35k average for government universities and that's after so-called subsidises, it's the same price some lesser known US Universities without subsides,


The only US universities without government subsidy are private. If it's a state school, there are subsidies, even if not enough. "A regular Bachelor still is about 35k average for government universities"; $35,000 SGD is $25,977 USD for a Bachelor degree in Singapore. The US average annual tuition at public institutions (2013-2014) is $15,640, which means $65,250 USD for a Bachelor degree.

That is, for public institutions, the average cost for a Bachelor degree in the US is 79% higher than average cost for a Bachelor degree in Singapore. Please note that the word "percentile" is nowhere in that statement.

All the other noise you make about scholarships or other forms of assistance and it being more expensive at private schools etc. is the same in both countries, so it's a wash and therefore not to be considered in the comparison.




< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/17/2016 1:20:32 PM >

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 3:52:40 PM   
blnymph


Posts: 1598
Joined: 11/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
... Also their apprentice trade program also has late graduation from the US. I think my point still stands.
...


No, sorry. One starts apprenticeship at an age of 15/16. Gesellenprüfung is at about 18/19, same age as Abitur. For many trade or craft apprenticeships no Abitur is required so you can begin earlier. As an apprentice you get a monthly salary and you work at an office or workshop 4 days of 5 per week.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 8:47:57 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
No, sorry. One starts apprenticeship at an age of 15/16. Gesellenprüfung is at about 18/19, same age as Abitur. For many trade or craft apprenticeships no Abitur is required so you can begin earlier. As an apprentice you get a monthly salary and you work at an office or workshop 4 days of 5 per week.

And how much taxes do they pay on that monthly salary and how much do they get paid?

(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/17/2016 8:55:14 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:


The only US universities without government subsidy are private. If it's a state school, there are subsidies, even if not enough. "A regular Bachelor still is about 35k average for government universities"; $35,000 SGD is $25,977 USD for a Bachelor degree in Singapore. The US average annual tuition at public institutions (2013-2014) is $15,640, which means $65,250 USD for a Bachelor degree.

That is, for public institutions, the average cost for a Bachelor degree in the US is 79% higher than average cost for a Bachelor degree in Singapore. Please note that the word "percentile" is nowhere in that statement.

All the other noise you make about scholarships or other forms of assistance and it being more expensive at private schools etc. is the same in both countries, so it's a wash and therefore not to be considered in the comparison.

First of all, it does not make sense to count exchange rate dude.
Because, when Singaporean students study in Singapore, they earn SGD. When US students study in the US, they earn USD. So you cannot calculated based on exchange rates.

It's like people tell me studying in Malaysia is cheaper. But I say that is not true! Because, if you are Malaysian and you earn Malaysian Dollars, studying in Malaysia is ALOT more expensive than studying in Singapore. It's only cheaper for Singaporeans earning Singaporean Money, because their money is three times lesser than ours due to exchange rate, but super unaffordable for Malaysians, because if a Singaporean earn 60k sgd for the same job a Malaysian earns 60k myr.

So if I earn money in SGD, a private school in Malaysia, for kids from 7 to 12 yr old cost 30kMYR(10k SGD), whereas if I earn in MYR, I still gotta pay 30k MYR.

So I never compare exchange rate, as I am comparing the difference between living as a Us citizen and paying for education there compared to living as a Singaporean and paying for education here.

So to compare exchange rate doesn't make sense, unless US students earns SGD and pays for college in USD.

So I would say it's about the same and we are more expensive since 80% of folks don't get the privilege of getting into public University. You have to understand in Singapore, getting into a public University is like trying to get into Harvard or Yale. No ordinary people can get in, unless your grades are sky high and you pass through difficult interviews. I mean it's like getting into top Universities in the US, where you are competing against fellow students who have perfect SAT scores. And then it becomes even more than just grades. Since you are competing with all the best academically. It's fucking hard to get into a public University in Singapore. You are competing with kids with no life but study 24/7.

In the US, you guys got so many cheap community college and state Universities to supply the people. Anybody can go Community college, easily!

As I mentioned, 80% of Singaporeans have NO CHOICE but to pay for private education. And with private education, like a non-subsidized tuition at our public University is 40k per annum already. That's the kind of private prices most Singaporeans pay.

I don't see you guys as more expensive.

And as for healthcare, it still doesn't explain why you guys got the most expensive health care in the world. As I don't see any difference between your country and our country when it comes to healthcare. We don't have free healthcare. We don't have free health insurance. It's all paid for by our own money. We buy private health insurance where even deductible and co-insurance is covered, for PRIVATE HOSPITALS in any country of this world. And they are sooo much cheaper than in the US. Why? And most people prefer private hospital than public hospitals in Singapore, because the public hospitals, you can't choose your doctors, you are a guinea pig for budding medical students, and they always run out of beds. They put you in the hall way, or even set up tents outside the hospitals to house you. Fortunately, our insurance for private hospitals are cheap.

Like going to a public A&E, I brought my friend with his head bleeding like mad. Huge pool of blood left on the floor. And they made him wait 4 hours to get stitched up. I got hurt myself, and needed stitches, and I went straight to private and got attended to immediately. My stitch cost me $400. It's just a tiny cut on my leg. Cut by glass. But my insurance covered it 100%. And my insurance premiums are at least 3 times lower than the US, with 100% coverage. No deductible or co-insurance. I really don't understand the medical cost situation in the US. Also smaller number of people pooling money today in an insurance means lesser money to share for all. So we should be more expensive. And medical insurance is not compulsory over here. It's a choice.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/17/2016 9:14:03 PM >

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/18/2016 2:21:07 AM   
blnymph


Posts: 1598
Joined: 11/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
No, sorry. One starts apprenticeship at an age of 15/16. Gesellenprüfung is at about 18/19, same age as Abitur. For many trade or craft apprenticeships no Abitur is required so you can begin earlier. As an apprentice you get a monthly salary and you work at an office or workshop 4 days of 5 per week.

And how much taxes do they pay on that monthly salary and how much do they get paid?


Simple questions, impossible to answer in one sentence: It varies a lot according to industry branch, Bundesland, what year of apprenticeship (growing from first to 3rd/4rth) - on average one starts at about 600-700 per month to about 1000 per month, usually tax-free at the beginning.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/18/2016 2:41:33 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
Simple questions, impossible to answer in one sentence: It varies a lot according to industry branch, Bundesland, what year of apprenticeship (growing from first to 3rd/4rth) - on average one starts at about 600-700 per month to about 1000 per month, usually tax-free at the beginning.

So you put a starting age to it. The allowance you mention is the same price students in my country get for work attachments in their technical college or Universities courses. About 600 to 1000 SGD per month. (Of course most of them are moaning it's slave labour salary) And this just means, they lose getting allowance from parents. And that sum of money replaces their allowance.

But how long does apprenticeship last?





(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/18/2016 3:40:30 AM   
bondageerone


Posts: 522
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline 		just proves that women are best.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: 2nd Female PM for UK! - 7/18/2016 3:48:59 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bondageerone

just proves that women are best.

I shall need to see results of PM May's rule to come to that conclusion. Let's see how she fairs.

I disagree with her foreign minister choice! It's like sending undiplomatic Trump to negotiate with the world. And that guy seems to hate everybody equally. There doesn't seem to be one nation he likes at all.

The thing is, I am a fan of Trump, but I see him more of a leader type and he can delegate diplomatic negotiations to his secretary of state or whatever.

He can employ the right people where he is weak.

But PM May has just done the strangest decision ever.

(in reply to bondageerone)
Profile   Post #: 80
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