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RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/22/2016 7:45:12 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		First, there is one question no one (not even the freaking reporters) has even bothered to ask.

Since this was a training exercise, why the hell did this dumbfuck have live ammo in his weapon in the first fucking place?

In the military, unless clearly stated as a live fire exercise, they use blanks.

In Federal training exercises for law enforcement, they use blanks or special rounds that mark targets like a freaking paint ball.

In every state and local force, live ammo is to be checked in with the range officer for this kind of exercise, so that there is no chance that something like this could possibly happen.

So here we have an officer and supervisor who:

1) had live ammo in his weapon (a lethal accident waiting to happen)
2) The people overseeing the exercise did not take precautions to keep live ammo out of the exercise (a lethal accident waiting to happen, and a total disregard for the safety of everyone involved.)

Since every department has similar regulations for these exercises, there is a lot of people that fucked up.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/22/2016 7:48:24 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First, there is one question no one (not even the freaking reporters) has even bothered to ask.

Since this was a training exercise, why the hell did this dumbfuck have live ammo in his weapon in the first fucking place?

In the military, unless clearly stated as a live fire exercise, they use blanks.

In Federal training exercises for law enforcement, they use blanks or special rounds that mark targets like a freaking paint ball.

In every state and local force, live ammo is to be checked in with the range officer for this kind of exercise, so that there is no chance that something like this could possibly happen.

So here we have an officer and supervisor who:

1) had live ammo in his weapon (a lethal accident waiting to happen)
2) The people overseeing the exercise did not take precautions to keep live ammo out of the exercise (a lethal accident waiting to happen, and a total disregard for the safety of everyone involved.)

Since every department has similar regulations for these exercises, there is a lot of people that fucked up.


It does not take much work on google to discover the shooter has issues...serious ones.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/22/2016 10:28:52 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First, there is one question no one (not even the freaking reporters) has even bothered to ask.

Since this was a training exercise, why the hell did this dumbfuck have live ammo in his weapon in the first fucking place?

In the military, unless clearly stated as a live fire exercise, they use blanks.

In Federal training exercises for law enforcement, they use blanks or special rounds that mark targets like a freaking paint ball.

In every state and local force, live ammo is to be checked in with the range officer for this kind of exercise, so that there is no chance that something like this could possibly happen.

So here we have an officer and supervisor who:

1) had live ammo in his weapon (a lethal accident waiting to happen)
2) The people overseeing the exercise did not take precautions to keep live ammo out of the exercise (a lethal accident waiting to happen, and a total disregard for the safety of everyone involved.)

Since every department has similar regulations for these exercises, there is a lot of people that fucked up.

It wasn't a training exersice, in was a outreach program where select civilians played the role of cops with the guy who ran the show playign the bad guy.
While this explains the participation of the civilian, it still puts the gun in a real bad legal position. Since there was no intent to kill it doesn't make murder. Since there was no intent to do harm manslaughter seems to be out.
Since there seems to be gross and blatant carelessnes (not to mention stupidity) negligent homocide seems pretty clear.

The person overseeing the exercise was the shooter.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/22/2016 10:30:20 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/22/2016 10:38:46 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: BamaD

It wasn't a training exersice, in was a outreach program


Well that certainly changes everything now doesn't it?



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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/22/2016 11:06:05 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: BamaD

ORIGINAL: BamaD

While this explains the participation of the civilian, it still puts the gun in a real bad legal position. Since there was no intent to kill it doesn't make murder.

It was a revolver. A blank has about 10% of the recoil of a live round. After the first round he knew he had live ammo.Why did he fire a second shot?



Since there was no intent to do harm manslaughter seems to be out.

Intent to harm is not a constitutant of manslaughter.


Since there seems to be gross and blatant carelessnes (not to mention stupidity) negligent homocide seems pretty clear.

The person overseeing the exercise was the shooter.


Do you think this individual should be allowed to own a firearm?



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:08:31 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First, there is one question no one (not even the freaking reporters) has even bothered to ask.

Since this was a training exercise, why the hell did this dumbfuck have live ammo in his weapon in the first fucking place?

In the military, unless clearly stated as a live fire exercise, they use blanks.

In Federal training exercises for law enforcement, they use blanks or special rounds that mark targets like a freaking paint ball.

In every state and local force, live ammo is to be checked in with the range officer for this kind of exercise, so that there is no chance that something like this could possibly happen.

So here we have an officer and supervisor who:

1) had live ammo in his weapon (a lethal accident waiting to happen)
2) The people overseeing the exercise did not take precautions to keep live ammo out of the exercise (a lethal accident waiting to happen, and a total disregard for the safety of everyone involved.)

Since every department has similar regulations for these exercises, there is a lot of people that fucked up.

From the various stroies I have put together the first releases seem to have gotten several things wrong, none of which let the cops off the hook.

First it was a outreach program which the Department allowed the cop who did the shooting run, seeminly unsupervised, in spite of the fact that the dept was being sued because he had allegedly unleashed a police dog on a person over a traffic stop, the details of which were not made clear in any story I found.

The weapon he did the shooting with was a personally owned revolver.
According to witnesses the woman was shot one time. This in no way absolves anyone of responsibility.

The department did not provide oversite, and particularly when civilians were involved this is unforgivable.
In my opinion there should not even have been blanks involved.
The same thing could have been accomplish with a laser tag set.

The cop clearly did not intentionally put live rounds in the revolver.
This means that either someone tampered with the revolver (and the is not indication of this) or he is guilty of 1st degree stupidity.

The chief has said it is his responsibility, presumably for the apparent total lack of oversight.

I find it a little strange that we have gotten no further information on this where the cops clearly scewed up when we get a constant barrage against the cops in cases where it turns out they were justified.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:21:42 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: bondageerone

this killing happened in a training exercise, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE BLANKS.

I covered that on page 1.
For this kind of exercise you don't even need blanks.
Departments that can get the money often use a advanced version of a first person shooter game that electronically scores the officer.

That begs the question: why were live rounds anywhere near the fucking place for that 'mistake' to even be in the realms of the possibility of happening??
I think the questions of responsibility need to be aimed much higher up the tree.


The training facility would have equipment for various types of training.
That would include shooting at the range.
However the live and blank ammunition would be stored seperatly (or most assuredly should be) so that doesn't explain the screwup.

And this is why the US training is so inferior to ours.
When they have that sort of training here, it is usually held at a separate location where live ammo isn't around, or, when this takes place at a regular shooting area, all other activity is cancelled and live ammo is locked away.


Citation for all of that please. I ask because I don't think you know what you're talking about.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:24:15 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Lucy gave the difference between the training of our firearms officers and those of the US.
They are worlds apart.
And this is just one incident of many where it shows.

If you can't see just how deficient your lot are at training your officers, that's on you.
The whole scenario was a complete fuck-up that with proper organisation and professionalism could and would have been avoided.


Actually, people come from all over the world to train here. They even come from your place.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:26:20 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Lucy gave the difference between the training of our firearms officers and those of the US.
They are worlds apart.
And this is just one incident of many where it shows.

If you can't see just how deficient your lot are at training your officers, that's on you.
The whole scenario was a complete fuck-up that with proper organisation and professionalism could and would have been avoided.


Actually, people come from all over the world to train here. They even come from your place.

So why don't they shoot people for no adequately explained reason all the time, if they trained in the 'States, then?

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:42:15 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Lucy gave the difference between the training of our firearms officers and those of the US.
They are worlds apart.
And this is just one incident of many where it shows.

If you can't see just how deficient your lot are at training your officers, that's on you.
The whole scenario was a complete fuck-up that with proper organisation and professionalism could and would have been avoided.


Actually, people come from all over the world to train here. They even come from your place.

So why don't they shoot people for no adequately explained reason all the time, if they trained in the 'States, then?

Because

A You only see the initial reports which put the cops in the worst possible light.
or
B You ignore the later reports that show that the cops actually justified.
and
C You are talking about places where the criminals are less likely, for whatever reason, to attack the police.

The narrative promotes proven lies, BLM still uses the slogan from Ferguson "hands up , don't shoot" even though it was proven that the "witnesses" who "saw" that weren't even there. But hey it is a cool slogan so who cares if it is a lie.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:42:44 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bondageerone

the real problem is in the mind set of Americans in general, ###right to bare arms#
makes everyone think, might as well use them, cops included.
IF THEY WERE NOT THERE QED..

once again USA have a safe day, ha ha . Milwaukee now on fire.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD! HOW DID YOU KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING?

(in reply to bondageerone)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:46:27 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Since he shot here more than once he most likely put in a magazine with live ammo rather than the one with blanks.


What kind of gun will cycle semi-auto with blanks?




Recoil operated. Some gas operated will not, some will.

T^T

You'll have to give me a cite. So far I'm with Thompson on this. Although if it was something like an Ace with a pressure reducer like a suppressor that might work with some screwing around.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 10:51:27 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Since he shot here more than once he most likely put in a magazine with live ammo rather than the one with blanks.


What kind of gun will cycle semi-auto with blanks?




Recoil operated. Some gas operated will not, some will.

T^T

You'll have to give me a cite. So far I'm with Thompson on this. Although if it was something like an Ace with a pressure reducer like a suppressor that might work with some screwing around.

After making that first post, still thinking he was using his service weapon, I have found that the weapon was a revolver making this conversation moot. And research I have done since then also indicates that without some modification autoloaders will not fire blanks.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 11:00:26 AM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Since he shot here more than once he most likely put in a magazine with live ammo rather than the one with blanks.


What kind of gun will cycle semi-auto with blanks?




Recoil operated. Some gas operated will not, some will.

T^T

You'll have to give me a cite. So far I'm with Thompson on this. Although if it was something like an Ace with a pressure reducer like a suppressor that might work with some screwing around.

After making that first post, still thinking he was using his service weapon, I have found that the weapon was a revolver making this conversation moot. And research I have done since then also indicates that without some modification autoloaders will not fire blanks.

Not to fuck with you and just to be precise, autoloaders will fire blanks they just won't, thereafter, cycle the action. I've, many times, demonstrated improper clearing of autoloaders by firing a primed piece of brass.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 4:46:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Since he shot here more than once he most likely put in a magazine with live ammo rather than the one with blanks.


What kind of gun will cycle semi-auto with blanks?




Recoil operated. Some gas operated will not, some will.

T^T

You'll have to give me a cite. So far I'm with Thompson on this. Although if it was something like an Ace with a pressure reducer like a suppressor that might work with some screwing around.

After making that first post, still thinking he was using his service weapon, I have found that the weapon was a revolver making this conversation moot. And research I have done since then also indicates that without some modification autoloaders will not fire blanks.

Not to fuck with you and just to be precise, autoloaders will fire blanks they just won't, thereafter, cycle the action. I've, many times, demonstrated improper clearing of autoloaders by firing a primed piece of brass.

Bad wording on my part, what you said.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 6:00:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"It was a revolver. A blank has about 10% of the recoil of a live round. After the first round he knew he had live ammo.Why did he fire a second shot?
"

Maybe he was not experienced with firearms and did not know ? I am just throwing it out there, if they find he is experienced he might have some culpability here, no doubt.

I think you should not be let out of highschool with a diploma without at least a basic understanding of firearms. At the very least how to make sure they are not loaded, the different types, not ever make and model but the operation of the different types is standardized enough. Once they pass that course then they can move on to marksmanship, and not have to use 41 rounds for a guy with a knife for example, or shoot their Wife when there is a burglar, or shoot themselves three fucking times cleaning the gun.

If we are going to have guns in this society, and it looks like we are, it should be common knowledge how to handle them safely at the very least.

T^T

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 6:07:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Since he shot here more than once he most likely put in a magazine with live ammo rather than the one with blanks.


What kind of gun will cycle semi-auto with blanks?




Recoil operated. Some gas operated will not, some will.

T^T

You'll have to give me a cite. So far I'm with Thompson on this. Although if it was something like an Ace with a pressure reducer like a suppressor that might work with some screwing around.


You got Google.

But I think I have that wrong. It is the other way around and you have to use a suppressor or something. Whatever it is, the main question is whether he knew or not.

T^T

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 6:11:25 PM   
Nnanji


Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: BamaD

Since he shot here more than once he most likely put in a magazine with live ammo rather than the one with blanks.


What kind of gun will cycle semi-auto with blanks?




Recoil operated. Some gas operated will not, some will.

T^T

You'll have to give me a cite. So far I'm with Thompson on this. Although if it was something like an Ace with a pressure reducer like a suppressor that might work with some screwing around.


You got Google.

But I think I have that wrong. It is the other way around and you have to use a suppressor or something. Whatever it is, the main question is whether he knew or not.

T^T

I don't need google. I agree with Thompson that it doesn't exist. I can't prove a negative.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 6:31:14 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"After making that first post, still thinking he was using his service weapon, I have found that the weapon was a revolver making this conversation moot. And research I have done since then also indicates that without some modification autoloaders will not fire blanks. "

Sure they will, but not eject and chamber another round. But now that we know it was a revolver that is a whole different story. To not be culpable for this the shooter would have to have zero, or very limited experience with firearms.

I say this to supporters of gun rights, BE CAREFUL WITH THEM THINGS. Someone fucked up here and if I was the guy running this show I would be on TV promising that whoever is responsible, if it was intentional or negligent, we'll get them. I would also accept responsibility for allowing it with something like "Well, if you are the Captain of a ship and your crew does something wrong you are responsible". Not that that means he is removed or goes to jail, you just can't watch everyone every minute.

But then what if it was intentional ? The only likely people who would do it would be the ones who are against gun rights so they can say "See what happens ?". The only other possibility is someone wanted someone dead and figured out how to do it which makes it premeditated.

Personally, I do not play with guns. Mine stays in its hiding place and since it is not fired it does not need cleaning, though it might be ready for a bit of oil. My pistol has only been fired a few times in many years and it is a revolver so cleaning is not that crucial. the Mossberg I have never fired. The guy I got them from (I traded an SKS) took really good care of them. Take them out and shot them once oin a while, and then clean and oil them. So I am not that worried about it. I do have concerns about my sister's Browning B-2000 though, it must really be ready because nothing has been done to it for decades. It may jam on the first shot. I'll have to get it from her and at the very least dump a bunch of oil in it.

But these exercises and bullshit are bullshit. The odds of getting into a real gunfight are so slim, as long as you can aim you should be alright. Like they used to put cops through that course where cardboard figures pop out of doors n shit. Tell me, when the fuck does that ever really happen ?

Although they really should learn to shoot. Or we have to pay for another 41 rounds next time some crazoid shows up on the street with a knife.

There is a restaurant in Colorado with a sign says "

GUNS ARE WELCOME HERE
PLEASE KEEP YOUR GUN HOLSTERED
UNLESS THE NEED ARISES
IN WHICH CASE JUDICIOUS AIM IS APPRECIATED

Pretty close, I am not looking for it now. But imagine deciding to try an armed robbery there. No, they are looking for gun free zones. And they don't even bother to take the sign off the door, disrespectful pricks...

T^T

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: EVEN YOUR COPS..USA.. - 8/23/2016 6:33:51 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I notice Nnanji said something similar and I missed it. When threads get long sometime this happens.

T^T

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 100
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