RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed

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ManOeuvre -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/15/2016 11:02:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 The fact that people are fleeing countries run by islamic laws and it has proven to be completely chaotic. The condition for their refugee status in being able to resettle in the new country is logically to give up Islam. How is that logical? This would only be true if the country they are fleeing to is a theocracy. Despite the best efforts of conservatives here in America, we still cling (barely) to the notion of religious freedom here in the US. Granted, that raises issues when someone's religion differs with someone else's but that's what democracy is all about. What happens if the person's religion differs from, and trespasses upon the areas of civil discourse that belong to democracy? Imagine the world exactly as it is, but there's no such thing as Islam. How far would the principles advocated and espoused by religion X need to differ from those of a host nation that espouses tolerance (among other civic virtues) before members of that host nation to be justified in restricting entry based on adherence to religion X?

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/15/2016 11:15:11 PM)
Greta, is it a proven fact that people are fleeing from muslim countries because of the brand of religion there ? Couldn't it be the things that go bang and kill people and knock down buildings that might possibly have something to do with people looking for greener and more peaceful pastures ? I have no religion at all but if I was in their shit-situation, I have a feeling that I might be looking for the shortest road out of there.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/15/2016 11:26:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: Edwird My knowledge and studies were to music and computer programming and economics, the first listed being the most intuitive, the latter being more informative and most remunerative. Yet you come here and spout nonsense, just as a brick layer would come into your office and tell you how to do your job. Hop along there, boy. Go read your Western fantasy books. If it's nonsense, refute any of it with a cite. If I can't come up with a cite to refute yours, I'll concede the point. You've yet to do that. The only thing you've done is state it's nonsense and cite your studies and work in economics as all the back-up you need. I've yet to see anyone agree with your opinion on that. You do what so many do...deflect from the statements presented, ridicule without any facts backing up your ridicule, then become dismissive and start name-calling. That reduces you to the level of a boy...not me. Oh please. Unless you refute the guy who comes into your office and says that the enlargement on my leg is due to hobgolins, you are not a real medical doctor. Are you up with that? I already pointed out the 'wrong facts' in the retail cashier's rant. Just as with many other things, it flew right over your head. "Demanding" that another is now held to your inferior standards for credibility isn't going to cut it. As I said before, bring up a verifiable fact, let's go from there. As a matter of fact, you pointed out those things that YOU believe are wrong. You did not use facts to dispute what was written, you stated your opinion. Here's a fact. You disputed the 55% tax rate, stating it was only 50%. Sweden Personal Income Tax Rate The Personal Income Tax Rate in Sweden stands at 57 percent.Personal Income Tax Rate in Sweden averaged 56.28 percent from 1995 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 61.40 percent in 1996 and a record low of 51.50 percent in 2000. Personal Income Tax Rate in Sweden is reported by the Skatteverket. Actual Previous Highest Lowest Dates Unit Frequency 57.00 56.90 61.40 51.50 1995 - 2015 percent Yearly In Sweden, the Personal Income Tax Rate is a tax collected from individuals and is imposed on different sources of income like labour, pensions, interest and dividends. The benchmark we use refers to the Top Marginal Tax Rate for individuals. Revenues from the Personal Income Tax Rate are an important source of income for the government of Sweden. This page provides - Sweden Personal Income Tax Rate - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. Sweden Personal Income Tax Rate - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on August of 2016. Sweden Taxes Last Previous Highest Lowest Unit Corp. Tax Rate 22.00 22.00 60.10 22.00 percent [+] Pers.IncomeTaxRate 57.00 56.90 61.40 51.50 percent [+] Sales Tax Rate . 25.00 25.00 25.00 25.00 percent [+] Soc. Sec. Rate 38.42 38.42 39.90 38.40 percent [+] S.S. Rate Companies 31.42 31.42 32.90 31.40 percent [+] S.S. Rate Employees 7.00 . 7.00. 7.00. 7.00. percent. [+] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/sweden/personal-income-tax-rate I am not an economist but. I would gather these folks are. Looks like you came closest at the lowest point.

MariaB -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/16/2016 1:12:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini I want to make a few points that I never see addressed here. I don't want to debate whose "fault" it is that millions of Muslims are fleeing into the West. I want to discuss the idea of acceptance, that the West will be completely and forever changed by what is occurring. Fact is, they are fleeing, even the men of fighting age don't want to stay in the countries they are fleeing, and few if any of them will ever want to return. The western world will be changed forever. I agree with a lot of what Awareness states, and I agree with a lot of what his distractors are also saying. Both sides can be right! The problem I have with both sides, is no-one has any idea how things are going to be in the long run. The point is we don't know what is going to happen in 50-100 years, and there is not much that can be done to change it. I don't need to quote anyone, a link for this or that, at some point people must use common sense. The whole damn world is drastically changing before your eyes, do you need a link for that? Of course, there are going to be so many cultural clashes, that eventually they won't be news worthy. I fully expect the issue of Muslim rights to become eventual daily chat. We can expect that the states will be sued to provide alternative Muslim schools for children, etc. It's going to be par for the course, so please don't be surprised. Oh it's going to happen. One thing that needs to be stated that we WILL become used to occasional terrorist activity, we have to. I believe 95% of those fleeing their countries, are probably peaceful. To say that you know for a fact that none of them are terrorists or prone to becoming radicalized makes you a liar, because no one knows how this is going to end up, because we have never had millions of middle eastern Muslims fleeing their countries before. We do know that every now and then there WILL be terrorist activities by those that are {terrorists, radicalized, disenfranchised, disillusioned, or mentally ill}. They are here, millions more are coming, the West will be FOREVER changed, almost none of them want to go back from the countries they are fleeing, and we must get used to a new reality. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying that it is a new reality, and the only thing you can be sure of is, the West will be changed forever. To say the West will not be changed, makes you disengenious at best. The change is just starting, and it's a done deal. The present refugee crisis certainly isn’t the biggest one we’ve had since the start of WWII and the refugees who are entering our shores now will settle to become nothing more than a tiny fraction of our population. A 100,000 Jews came and settled in Britain at the turn of WWII and a further 19,000 Vietnam boat people were accepted in Britain during the Thatcher era and then we had the Balkans, the Africans and the Afghans. The UK already has hundreds of thousands of Indian and Pakistani migrants so why would less than 20,000 Syrians make a difference? We need to remind ourselves that when all those Pakistanis landed on our shores decades ago, we didn’t hold the same prejudice towards Muslims we now do. Back then we praised our new cultural development and these foreigners went on to became the very backbone of our economic success. I’m certainly not worried about our countries future because of this recent refugee crisis. I’m just frustrated with the idiotic, frantic pump up the rubes hysteria that’s been inflicted on us by those with an agenda. I’m more concerned about the huge number of illegal immigrants who come in here on a holiday or student visa and decide to overstay their welcome. Those are the people who don’t pay their taxes and don’t help our economy in the slightest and those are the people who don’t wish to integrate for fear of raising suspicion.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/16/2016 2:36:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The Great Recession was caused, in part, by Federal regulators not doing their job. In general my problem with the anti-regulation rhetoric is that it assumes that all regulation is bad regulation. That has always seemed problematic to me because I happen to like drinking water, breathing air, and enjoying all the other benefits that externalized costs would otherwise deny me. Properly done, regulation stops a few people from making money at the expense of everyone else. I am a huge believer in simplification but I doubt that's possible since neither the regulators nor those regulated want that. I know you know this, but I want others to read it, too. Capitalism requires some regulation. And, anti-regulation people aren't all in support of no regulation, just less. In the case of the Great Recession, it's been documented that the Federal Reserve had the authority and responsibility to prevent what happened, and that the SEC was filled with people watching porn on their government computers rather than doing their jobs watching out for market problems. Had either one of those two agencies done their jobs properly, the Great Recession probably would have just been a mild recession at the most.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/16/2016 2:45:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre What happens if the person's religion differs from, and trespasses upon the areas of civil discourse that belong to democracy? Imagine the world exactly as it is, but there's no such thing as Islam. How far would the principles advocated and espoused by religion X need to differ from those of a host nation that espouses tolerance (among other civic virtues) before members of that host nation to be justified in restricting entry based on adherence to religion X? You're free to worship and exercise your religion until it infringes on the rights of others. That's where the line gets drawn. There is no need to restrict entry based on religion. We have ways of dealing with people who break the laws. In the case of the burkini, no one's rights are trespassed by a woman wearing a burkini, except, maybe, the woman wearing it. Are we just to assume her rights are trespassed, or do we have to wait for her to bring grievance? If you want to slaughter a hog in homage to the great Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, I don't care, as long as it's your hog and on your property. I don't have to agree with what you do, but as long as it's not infringing on another's rights, go for it.

Marini -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/16/2016 8:46:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB quote: ORIGINAL: Marini I want to make a few points that I never see addressed here. I don't want to debate whose "fault" it is that millions of Muslims are fleeing into the West. I want to discuss the idea of acceptance, that the West will be completely and forever changed by what is occurring. Fact is, they are fleeing, even the men of fighting age don't want to stay in the countries they are fleeing, and few if any of them will ever want to return. The western world will be changed forever. I agree with a lot of what Awareness states, and I agree with a lot of what his distractors are also saying. Both sides can be right! The problem I have with both sides, is no-one has any idea how things are going to be in the long run. The point is we don't know what is going to happen in 50-100 years, and there is not much that can be done to change it. I don't need to quote anyone, a link for this or that, at some point people must use common sense. The whole damn world is drastically changing before your eyes, do you need a link for that? Of course, there are going to be so many cultural clashes, that eventually they won't be news worthy. I fully expect the issue of Muslim rights to become eventual daily chat. We can expect that the states will be sued to provide alternative Muslim schools for children, etc. It's going to be par for the course, so please don't be surprised. Oh it's going to happen. One thing that needs to be stated that we WILL become used to occasional terrorist activity, we have to. I believe 95% of those fleeing their countries, are probably peaceful. To say that you know for a fact that none of them are terrorists or prone to becoming radicalized makes you a liar, because no one knows how this is going to end up, because we have never had millions of middle eastern Muslims fleeing their countries before. We do know that every now and then there WILL be terrorist activities by those that are {terrorists, radicalized, disenfranchised, disillusioned, or mentally ill}. They are here, millions more are coming, the West will be FOREVER changed, almost none of them want to go back from the countries they are fleeing, and we must get used to a new reality. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying that it is a new reality, and the only thing you can be sure of is, the West will be changed forever. To say the West will not be changed, makes you disengenious at best. The change is just starting, and it's a done deal. The present refugee crisis certainly isn’t the biggest one we’ve had since the start of WWII and the refugees who are entering our shores now will settle to become nothing more than a tiny fraction of our population. A 100,000 Jews came and settled in Britain at the turn of WWII and a further 19,000 Vietnam boat people were accepted in Britain during the Thatcher era and then we had the Balkans, the Africans and the Afghans. The UK already has hundreds of thousands of Indian and Pakistani migrants so why would less than 20,000 Syrians make a difference? We need to remind ourselves that when all those Pakistanis landed on our shores decades ago, we didn’t hold the same prejudice towards Muslims we now do. Back then we praised our new cultural development and these foreigners went on to became the very backbone of our economic success. I’m certainly not worried about our countries future because of this recent refugee crisis. I’m just frustrated with the idiotic, frantic pump up the rubes hysteria that’s been inflicted on us by those with an agenda. I’m more concerned about the huge number of illegal immigrants who come in here on a holiday or student visa and decide to overstay their welcome. Those are the people who don’t pay their taxes and don’t help our economy in the slightest and those are the people who don’t wish to integrate for fear of raising suspicion. Thank you for the well thought out response. I hope the change in western society is favorable. The thing is with all the uncertainty in the world, at this time, thousands of refugees fleeing from many countries, uncertainty all around, we have NO idea, how the world will be in 2 years, much less 10-20 years. No idea at all, but I will still bet the farm, that western civilization will be forever changed. The thing is, no one wants the world to disintegrate, but we have the right to be concerned. I personally wonder about the sanity of those that think, we have nothing to be concerned about.

MariaB -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 12:12:50 AM)
In what way do you think it will be changed Marini? Its not going to be over crowded, so what is it?

tweakabelle -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 1:41:18 AM)
The Chinese have a saying that every challenge is an opportunity. Living in a world where the only constant is change, the question is whether the changes that will ensure Muslim immigration will fundamentally change the West, or whether we can turn challenge into opportunity and a win-win situation. Some people, usually those who don't know diddly-squat about Islam, see this challenge as a negative phenomenon. Their reaction often originates in fears about the unknown, about those who are different, about the other. The easiest solution to this is for those people to either educate themselves or be educated about Islam or to have some Muslim friends. In most cases those fears will evaporate. Islamic immigration is already changing the West. We see kebab shops in most towns, hummus and tabouli on most supermarket shelves. Will it change the West fundamentally? No chance. Will it force anyone to change their lifestyle? That's about as likely as being forced to eat hummus and tabouli with every meal, ie. no chance. One only need look at France or Germany both of which have had significant Muslim minorities for decades now. Are they fundamentally changed? Is there a suicide bomber around every corner in France or Germany? Has any element of sharia law been co-opted into the State legal system? No, no and no. The answer to fear is education and knowledge. Fears evaporate with familiarity and experience. Migrant cultures, when mixed appropriately through cautious assimilation enrich the host culture. Australia, the USA Canada and many other countries are testament to that.

MariaB -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 4:10:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The Chinese have a saying that every challenge is an opportunity. Living in a world where the only constant is change, the question is whether the changes that will ensure Muslim immigration will fundamentally change the West, or whether we can turn challenge into opportunity and a win-win situation. Some people, usually those who don't know diddly-squat about Islam, see this challenge as a negative phenomenon. Their reaction often originates in fears about the unknown, about those who are different, about the other. The easiest solution to this is for those people to either educate themselves or be educated about Islam or to have some Muslim friends. In most cases those fears will evaporate. Islamic immigration is already changing the West. We see kebab shops in most towns, hummus and tabouli on most supermarket shelves. Will it change the West fundamentally? No chance. Will it force anyone to change their lifestyle? That's about as likely as being forced to eat hummus and tabouli with every meal, ie. no chance. One only need look at France or Germany both of which have had significant Muslim minorities for decades now. Are they fundamentally changed? Is there a suicide bomber around every corner in France or Germany? Has any element of sharia law been co-opted into the State legal system? No, no and no. The answer to fear is education and knowledge. Fears evaporate with familiarity and experience. Migrant cultures, when mixed appropriately through cautious assimilation enrich the host culture. Australia, the USA Canada and many other countries are testament to that. What a great post and one that I wholeheartedly agree with. A lot of this fear comes from believing the propaganda re terrorism and where its come (going to come) from. To achieve refugee status you have to jump through hoops of fire. First you have to be accepted through the UN process and then through the individual nations process which usually takes 18 months or more. Its painful and its difficult and the chances are you will end up in refugee camps or countries you don’t want to be in, so anyone who seriously wants to come to a country to make Jihad (and yes, I know there are people out there who want to do that) aren’t going to say, “hey, I think I’ll become a refugee and I’m prepared to jump through hoops of fire to do that”. ISIS have plenty of money; enough money to pay for tourist visas or student visas as well as buy them a first class ticket to fly over here. The gateway to Jihad in the West is via the student or holiday visa and not the thorough the department of homeland security for refugee status. No terrorist activities to date have involved these recent refugees. When a Syrian passport was found on the site of an attack in France and that passport traced back to a refugee, the press wouldn't leave it alone and our emotions reached critical point but when later evidence showed that passport belonged to a person who died in Syria long before the terrorist activity took place, our popular press kept that information very close to their chest. ISIS has many goals and one of those goals is to have the West believe that many of these refugees are their own recruits. There is nothing ISIS want more than to have these refugees turned back.

MariaB -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 4:25:30 AM)
One thing that will change… is changing, is the new and expanded legislation that allows the West to become a total surveillance society. We’ve had so much fear pumped into us by government sources that the British populace, like lap dogs, have accepted investigatory power bills that give the authorities total surveillance powers over us.

blnymph -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 4:44:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri If you want to slaughter a hog in homage to the great Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, ... I thought they do only slaughter maccaroni and rigatoni ... drowned in bowls full of sangue di pomodori.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 5:17:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri If you want to slaughter a hog in homage to the great Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, ... I thought they do only slaughter maccaroni and rigatoni ... drowned in bowls full of sangue di pomodori. Gotta slaughter da hogs to make-a da sausages. Also helps in making da meat balls.

blnymph -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 5:31:24 AM)
Aah I understand - most of the local pastafarians I know follow the napolitan school of tomato, basil, and parmigiano.

kdsub -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 9:01:29 AM)
Tweak the US is often criticized on its immigration policies. I submit to you that these very policies have allowed and encouraged most Muslim immigrants to the US to integrate smoothly into our society. This is not the case in Europe on the whole. It seems to me in Europe Muslims tend to separate themselves from their new country. This separation encourages distrust and also makes it hard to prosper. Of course with every attack in America Muslims find themselves having to defend their religion and separate themselves from extremists. And some politicians are using this fear to gain votes but the life of Muslims in the US is far better than Europe I believe. The reason for the difference is the willingness for Muslims in America to participate and join American society outside their religion. Butch

PeonForHer -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 9:05:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It seems to me in Europe Muslims tend to separate themselves from their new country. This separation encourages distrust and also makes it hard to prosper. What gives you that impression, Butch?

kdsub -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 9:08:56 AM)
Perhaps our media is misrepresenting the problems of integration of Muslims into many European societies. Butch

MariaB -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/17/2016 9:41:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Perhaps our media is misrepresenting the problems of integration of Muslims into many European societies. Butch It depends where you live in Europe and who you listen to kdsub. Pay little head to the nonsense our popular media put out or the antipathy shown by certain members who post on here.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/18/2016 4:25:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph Aah I understand - most of the local pastafarians I know follow the napolitan school of tomato, basil, and parmigiano. I'm more fond of Bolognese with it's base of bacon/saltpork flavoring all it's chunky and meaty goodness.

longwayhome -> RE: Middle East & West - Western society forever changed (8/18/2016 5:47:29 PM)
I think that Western societies are strong enough to handle Muslim minorities just as we handle Christian, Jewish and other religious and national minorities. Americans and Europeans can do terrorism, intolerance and political/religious violence just fine without any help from Muslim extremists - just think of all the terrorist acts in the last 100 years which haven't been carried out in the name of Islam. The problem is the political mindset that produces terrorism - not Islam. Muslims are just being made into the bogeyman, when the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and law abiding, just like the rest of our populations. There is a problem with Islamic extremism, perpetrated by those who most Muslims believe misrepresent Islam. The political turmoil in the Middle East is creating large refugee populations and humanitarian crises. We have had to deal with this sort of thing in the past and will have to carrying on doing it in the future. Our societies have changed and adapted to wave after wave of immigration over thousands of years. People move, work, have families, vote and pay taxes. Indigenous populations move about in their own countries as well, creating the need for infrastructure to keep pace with changing patterns of settlement. Look at how voting patterns in the US have changed as Americans have travelled around their own country. Most of the growth of major cities across the world is internal migration *not* immigration. Immigrant communities just stand out more. We have always had communities within communities, and people living alongside each other with different religions, political views and cultures. It's not the differences that dictate how happy our communities are but how we choose to live together. Things change. It's about time we had faith in our communities and our way of life, instead of being so negative and insecure.

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