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obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 7:27:15 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		I know I read a thread similar to this a while ago, but I think I'm taking a different slant in this one.

I have been thinking about the difference between obey and submit. I can physically obey a command but not be submitting because I am very adept at dis-associating myself from my activities. (Comes from years of sexual molestation as a child and abuse in my marriage. I do not recommend it.)

For me to submit, rather than simply obey, would to consciously not dis-associate and be completely in the moment of obeying the command. There are things that would be emotionally hurtful for me to do if I stayed completely "intact" throughout the activity but I could obey if I disconnected.

I've read Dom/mes and Masters who want the obedience, but wouldn't the complete submission be better? Which is more important, the obedience or the submission?
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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 7:28:38 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		To me, its the submission...and then the rest follows...but thats just me.

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


(in reply to sublizzie)
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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 7:40:42 AM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		There is such a thing as "malicious compliance"..you do what you are told , but your heart is cold about it. You will do just the minimum, and with a poor spirit. Submission is more about "ardent compliance"..you do because you WANT to..because you feel a sincere desire to please, to measure up, to be all that your Master wants you to be. I'd think a Master would prefer ardent compliance (submission) to malcious compliance anytime.

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 8:14:11 AM   
MrrPete


Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		For me, in a Dom/sub or Master/slave relationship, Being obedient is being submissive. You obey BECAUSE you have submitted. You obey to please your Master even if he tells you to do something you don't like.

Obedience is the character in a woman that really, really pleases me. Immediate without resevation obedience just makes me melt innside. That takes a deeper level of submission and commitment. That's why I'm looking for a slave.

Doing what your boss says has nothing to do with submission or obedience. It's subbordination.

_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to sublizzie)
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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 8:21:07 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		There is a place for both in a D/s M/s relationship. I understand that there is a big difference between the two, and I know that I prefer joyfull submission over mindless obedience. There is a place for obedience and use of that obedience can work towards submission with a joyfull heart.

Assume for the sake of this argument, I want you to make your body more fit. I compell obedience in an excersie regiment that you are not ready to submit to with joy. I compell the obedience and force you to do the workouts, you see the results in yourself and your self image improves. Resulting in your greater trust that obedience to me will have good results. The next time I order something you are not too keen on you remember the results of the workout and how you hated it but obeyed and it turned out for the best. That makes your compliance a little less obedience and a little more submission maybe not a joyfull submission but not strictly a mindless obedience.

BTW one could swap the places of the two words submission and obedience and form the exact same argument, making this a semantic argument. Denotation vs connotation makes for alot of these arguments.


In Leather

Archer

(in reply to ChainedExistence)
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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 8:37:47 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

For me, in a Dom/sub or Master/slave relationship, Being obedient is being submissive. You obey BECAUSE you have submitted. You obey to please your Master even if he tells you to do something you don't like.


I can obey, but not really be there. I'm good at obeying. But for me to truly submit, I have to stay connected while I obey. I know that, within myself, there's a big difference, though someone else may not see the difference.

I'm curious. Would you prefer obedience where I, or whomever, is disconnected or submission where I, or whomever, is completely there?

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 8:46:42 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainedExistence

There is such a thing as "malicious compliance"..you do what you are told , but your heart is cold about it. You will do just the minimum, and with a poor spirit. Submission is more about "ardent compliance"..you do because you WANT to..because you feel a sincere desire to please, to measure up, to be all that your Master wants you to be. I'd think a Master would prefer ardent compliance (submission) to malcious compliance anytime.


There are times when I comply , utterly WITHOUT any *ardence*....it does not mean that my *heart is cold* in the least....... it just means that I REALLY do NOT want to comply in a particular circumstance but that I respect the agreement that I made..... and the fact that I still DO, is submission, just the same.

My Master had better go *hunting* if he expects my *ardent compliance* .......What he DOES have, is my compliance,(mostly).. .even when my spirit is poor, when I do NOT desire to please and when I do not care , at the time, whether I *measure up* or not.

It's not necessarily *malicious compliance* .........but respecting the *deal*.

agirl



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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 8:57:28 AM   
reticence


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline 		I completely understand what you are saying.  Those of us that have developed the dissociative coping mechanism often feel that our cognition is disconnected to our emotion.  I often wonder if other people feel it so strongly.  It has been my experience that repeated performance of the act (obedience) will often result in feeling it (submission) 

If we put on the mask long enough, the mask becomes us and we become the mask.  If pleasing and being obedient is truly the desire of our heart, but our psyche has put up roadblocks, sometimes we have to just obey until the submission comes... Sometimes I think it is just a matter of our own perception, skewed as it is.  (smile)

In the big picture, i wonder if it really matters from where the behaviors come, as long as you are doing what you feel is right and it meshes with your partner's expectation of you.It is really just a matter of perception.

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 8:59:34 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

For me, in a Dom/sub or Master/slave relationship, Being obedient is being submissive. You obey BECAUSE you have submitted. You obey to please your Master even if he tells you to do something you don't like.


I can obey, but not really be there. I'm good at obeying. But for me to truly submit, I have to stay connected while I obey. I know that, within myself, there's a big difference, though someone else may not see the difference.

I'm curious. Would you prefer obedience where I, or whomever, is disconnected or submission where I, or whomever, is completely there?


Hello sublizzie,

I suspect that that is the difference for me. If I hate/dislike a request or instruction......I'll say so. He'll STILL just say...* Oh well, just do it anyway*........It doesn't make any DIFFERENCE to the outcome ........he gets my compliance either willingly or not so willingly.....it doesn't matter a great deal either way.

If you obey while being *switched off* ...isn't that a little like being an automaton?........I have no ability to do this ........I cannot obey *just because*.........I FEEL everything surrounding my actions.

agirl

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 9:07:20 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
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From: UK
Status: offline
Personally, I see submission equals obedience.  When I submit, I agree to obey.  Not the other way around.  My distinquishing dynamic would be service.  In which scenario, submission superceeds, service hands down.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 9:28:13 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Personally, I see submission equals obedience.  When I submit, I agree to obey.  Not the other way around.  My distinquishing dynamic would be service.  In which scenario, submission superceeds, service hands down.
 
Peace and Rapture



When I am at my most reluctant to obey/submit and still do.....when I have most fibres of my being wailing at my predicament and I push myself to bend one knee after the other ........then I KNOW what it feels like to actually submit.

It's not that I do not think my Master DESERVES it.....that does not enter into it ......I do not have to THINK about what HE deserves or what I deserve......HE decides those things.  He GETS what HE thinks he will have and what HE thinks is right, for himself AND for me,at any given time. And blessed be, frankly.

agirl



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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 9:39:05 AM   
reticence


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Personally, I see submission equals obedience.  When I submit, I agree to obey.  Not the other way around.  My distinquishing dynamic would be service.  In which scenario, submission superceeds, service hands down.
 
Peace and Rapture



darkinshadows, please forgive my denseness. Would you please expand on the sentences in red?  I am not sure I understand totally.  

Thank you

reti

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 9:45:36 AM   
reticence


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Personally, I see submission equals obedience.  When I submit, I agree to obey.  Not the other way around.  My distinquishing dynamic would be service.  In which scenario, submission superceeds, service hands down.
 
Peace and Rapture



When I am at my most reluctant to obey/submit and still do.....when I have most fibres of my being wailing at my predicament and I push myself to bend one knee after the other ........then I KNOW what it feels like to actually submit.

It's not that I do not think my Master DESERVES it.....that does not enter into it ......I do not have to THINK about what HE deserves or what I deserve......HE decides those things.  He GETS what HE thinks he will have and what HE thinks is right, for himself AND for me,at any given time. And blessed be, frankly.

agirl





agirl,

I totally agree (smile) Doing what we do not "feel""like doing, but doing it because Master has spoken, speaks to my submissive heart.  It just does not matter if i "feel" it or not at the time. I know that very soon the "what" will not matter because the "why" is what it is all about.

(in reply to agirl)
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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 9:54:39 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		I can physically obey a command but not be submitting because I am very adept at dis-associating myself from my activities.
For me to submit, rather than simply obey, would to consciously not dis-associate and be completely in the moment of obeying the command.

In my opinion it is a little worrying that you need to disassociate yourself to complete orders. Surely this is not healthy?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 9:58:08 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Ok, for the sake of argument, playing devil's advocate position, perhaps obedience does not equal submission. Blind obedience is not being a good servant. Perhaps I am told not to go on the internet at all by my dominant because I am being disciplined, but then I receive a phone call about documents that are extremely important that have been emailed to us, so I have to go online, disobey him, to get these documents FOR HIM. I am being a good submissive even though I intentionally disobeyed my Dominant (for the sake of this argument he cannot be reached).

There have been many times in the past when under another's authority, either during my adademic career or at jobs I have held, that I ignored "rules" to better serve my boss or a professor during research. I didn't break any ethical constraints, only red tape rules that would have been harmful in a given circumstance. It was for the betterment of the organization that I made decisions against the rules given out. I was questioned a few times, never in trouble because of my motivation and the results were favorable. That is being a good servant, and I can't help but think most masters/dominants would want someone that wasn't just blindly obedient, but thought for themselves. I maybe mistaken though, I only know the dynamics I have been in after all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to reticence)
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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 10:02:18 AM   
reticence


Posts: 180
Joined: 2/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

In my opinion it is a little worrying that you need to disassociate yourself to complete orders. Surely this is not healthy?


I cant speak for anyone but myself, but I agree, it is not a healthy way to deal with life.  It is a learned behavior that helped me cope at one time in my life.  I dont need it anymore and I have learned *am learning* how to not do it.  It became so much a part of how I handled things, I found myself doing it as a reaction to even mild unpleasantries. Those of us that dissociate as a coping mechanism also seem to compartmentalize everything.. separate ourselves.  It takes a lot of work to break down that compartmentalization and learn to not do it anymore.  It does make us feel more like actors than participants.  Learning to be "in the moment" for me, is very important.

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 10:17:09 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Personally, I see submission equals obedience.  When I submit, I agree to obey.  Not the other way around.  My distinquishing dynamic would be service.  In which scenario, submission superceeds, service hands down.
 
Peace and Rapture



When I am at my most reluctant to obey/submit and still do.....when I have most fibres of my being wailing at my predicament and I push myself to bend one knee after the other ........then I KNOW what it feels like to actually submit.

It's not that I do not think my Master DESERVES it.....that does not enter into it ......I do not have to THINK about what HE deserves or what I deserve......HE decides those things.  He GETS what HE thinks he will have and what HE thinks is right, for himself AND for me,at any given time. And blessed be, frankly.

agirl





agirl,

I totally agree (smile) Doing what we do not "feel""like doing, but doing it because Master has spoken, speaks to my submissive heart.  It just does not matter if i "feel" it or not at the time. I know that very soon the "what" will not matter because the "why" is what it is all about.


Hello reticence,

Yes.....The *why* is the biggest part, for me as an individual because I chose this, I asked HIM.......I wished for and asked to belong to him.

I KNEW (mostly...lol) what it would entail...that he was strict, uncompromising, that he had high standards......that agreeing to something means *getting ON with it*. And quite honestly, that's exactly what it's like, sometimes.... *getting on with it*.

I know I've said it before, but there's no *cherry-picking* allowed........either I accept the place I asked to be in, or I shunt my bottom to a less challenging, more comfortable place.

In the short term, I'd like that, a LOT .......but from experience, in the long term, it does me NO good whatsoever.

I know where I am better off, whether I like it or not.

agirl









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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 10:28:53 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

In my opinion it is a little worrying that you need to disassociate yourself to complete orders. Surely this is not healthy?


I cant speak for anyone but myself, but I agree, it is not a healthy way to deal with life.  It is a learned behavior that helped me cope at one time in my life.  I dont need it anymore and I have learned *am learning* how to not do it.  It became so much a part of how I handled things, I found myself doing it as a reaction to even mild unpleasantries. Those of us that dissociate as a coping mechanism also seem to compartmentalize everything.. separate ourselves.  It takes a lot of work to break down that compartmentalization and learn to not do it anymore.  It does make us feel more like actors than participants.  Learning to be "in the moment" for me, is very important.


Forgive me for answering both at once.

Missturbation, absolutely it's not healthy to separate myself. I, like reticence, am working at staying in the moment regardless. But it's become such a part of my psyche to disconnect, that it comes automatically with the least provocation. I have not yet been in a situation where I wanted to disconnect. But I'm early in my journey and I keep hearing about things that I do not want to do. Yes, I could put them as limits, but not everyone respects limits. If I got into a situation where I was in the right head-space, I would obey what I was told even though it went against my limits. To be able to do that, I would disconnect myself from the situation. Some Doms might see that as a good thing. I would be obeying something that I said was a limit and they managed to get me to do it anyway. But I wouldn't be submitting, just obeying.

This hasn't happened yet. I do a lot of things that I don't like, but have not put as limits, and have been able to stay connected to do them. But I can see situations where I would disconnect and simply obey rather than submit.

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RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 10:54:32 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Yes, I could put them as limits, but not everyone respects limits.

That again is worrying, if someone did not respect my limits i would be out of there.
 
With respect are you not just repeating patterns of past abuse closing off and taking part in things which make you uncomfortable. Consensual abuse is never the less abuse.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: obey vs submit - 7/22/2006 11:31:57 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

That again is worrying, if someone did not respect my limits i would be out of there.
 
With respect are you not just repeating patterns of past abuse closing off and taking part in things which make you uncomfortable. Consensual abuse is never the less abuse.


I am very careful who I am in relationship with so that I do not have to deal with abuse of any kind. I am also careful who I "play" with because I want my limits respected. I'm really not going out and doing stupid things with anyone. I am also working through not disconnecting when I am in difficult situations.

But I am also aware that I can't be the only one who knows that there is within me the possibility to end up in a bad situation where the only way to deal with it is to disconnect. By asking my question about the difference between obeying and submitting, and using my own experiences as an example, I was hoping to get exactly this kind of discussion going.

One aspect of being on forums like this is helping lurkers, who seldom if ever post, find answers to questions they don't even know they have. It's not safe to play with people that you can't trust implicitly especially if you have the kind of background that includes abuse of any kind. People who've been abused can easily fall into the same kind of abuse patterns that they were in before. I am working hard to not do that. I am also very careful with any Doms that I talk with to weed out any who might find it amusing to push limits that could cause me to disconnect.

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