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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 5:34:51 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		As far as the whole "victimless crime" argument goes, can it not be assumed that the use of narcotics whose revenue goes to fund terrorist groups (heroin) or criminal cartels with a taste for shooting people (cocaine and, to a lesser extent, marijuana) might not be as victimless as all that in every case?
(One of the best reasons to legalise this stuff would be to deny asshats like that the money from the drugs trade, in fact. It'd be nearly as beneficial as the revenue that could be raised by taxing the stuff.)

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 5:37:25 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44



if we somehow think that society and other people would be okay if all of a sudden drugs were legal---I cannot envision a world where that actually occurs.


Drugs have only been prohibited since the 1930s. The norm of history is that drugs have been legal. The world you "cannot envision" is the world as it has been for almost the entirety of the past millennia.

Seen from this perspective, the policy of prohibition is itself the experimental policy and one would have to conclude that the experiment has been a catastrophic failure. It has failed to deliver advances on any level, apart from enriching criminal cartels and filling prisons with otherwise law abiding citizens. Today, drugs are more freely available and more popular than ever before.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/29/2016 5:39:08 AM >

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 5:47:17 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

As far as the whole "victimless crime" argument goes, can it not be assumed that the use of narcotics whose revenue goes to fund terrorist groups (heroin) or criminal cartels with a taste for shooting people (cocaine and, to a lesser extent, marijuana) might not be as victimless as all that in every case?
(One of the best reasons to legalise this stuff would be to deny asshats like that the money from the drugs trade, in fact. It'd be nearly as beneficial as the revenue that could be raised by taxing the stuff.)


What the fuck are you talking about ? The US is in Afghanistan where they rape little boys and our soldiers are told to look the other way. And the poppy plants are growing every day. A bunch of them go into legal drugs of course like the morphine they give you at the hospital. But some of it is used to make heroin and other illegal drugs that get sold on the street. And it is proven by the FACT that nobody else but the government could get that much smack into this country. NOBODY.

And now, to save money of course on shipping costs, the smack is not cut. And because of that, smack addicts are dying because they OD, not knowing the shit is much better and they need to take less.

Where have you been ? There are fucking signs on the back of buses around here about that shit.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 8/29/2016 5:51:09 AM >

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 5:49:17 AM   
thompsonx


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As far as the whole "victimless crime" argument goes, can it not be assumed that the use of narcotics whose revenue goes to fund terrorist groups (heroin) or criminal cartels with a taste for shooting people (cocaine and, to a lesser extent, marijuana) might not be as victimless as all that in every case?


You have not shown any causal link between the two so the answer is no it may not be assumed.


(One of the best reasons to legalise this stuff would be to deny asshats like that the money from the drugs trade, in fact. It'd be nearly as beneficial as the revenue that could be raised by taxing the stuff.)

By making it illegal those involved in that enterprise make money. Legalize it then perhaps a different group of bussiness people will invest or those who are doing it as a criminal enterprise will find themselves the nucleus of a multi billion dollar sector of the economy.

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 5:59:22 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		The Taliban funded itself from its creation as heroin exporters. There was a heavy underground trade with Pakistan up until the invasion, which complicated production a lot, but hasn't as yet eradicated it.
If it takes government level skullduggery to move large quantities of heroin into your country, how was anybody able to get hold of the stuff before the invasion of Afghanistan?

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 6:08:39 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Bullshit. The Taliban outlawed the production or poppies for opiate production and the penalty was death.

Now the country is somewhat controlled by the US and they are raping little boys and there is more and better smack on the street than ever before to the point where people are ODing on it.

What planet are you on ?

T^T

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 6:08:51 AM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Problem people do not realize is that people want to get high and/or drunk, or semi-drunk. Who the fuck is anyone else to tell them what to do ?

And I also believe there must be personal responsibility. Say you are driving and intoxicated, well since you willfully got intoxicated and then put that key in the ignition, if you are in an at fault accident it is considered willful and premeditated. Fender bender is vandalism, any injuries (but I don't mean a broken fingernail) are assault and battery, and if a death occurs it is first degree murder. But they make more money stopping you because one taillight is brighter than the other, you are totally coherent and just had a couple beers with dinner they rip you off for a couple of grand.

Without a victim, how is there a crime ?
T^T


because, even though im a highly individualist libertarian type, I recognize we live in community (think "no man is an island") and when the actions of others negatively impact society as a whole, and more importantly, hurt innocent individuals (ironically as in your example), then the government is justified in stepping in and doing something about it, such as prohibiting things and punishing their abuse.

if we somehow think that society and other people would be okay if all of a sudden drugs were legal---I cannot envision a world where that actually occurs.



Two things.

If I don't cause any trouble, pay my bills and work i is none of your fucking business what I take into my body.

And, prohibition has not worked at all. It didn't even work with a fucking Constitutional amendment, remember ? People are going to do what the fuck they want in this country. We were born and bred like that, with all this talk of freedom. Are you saying that was all a lie ? I want a beer and a joint, and I am 100 miles away from you. You got nothing to say about it. Even if I am right nextdoor you got nothing to say about it.

And neither does the government.

Period.

T^T


in the midst of your ranting, please go back and notice where you apparently missed the word I used: "abuse."

and again, ironically, when you say "if I don't cause any trouble...", you are indirectly articulating my position, that you have a social, if not legal, responsibility to not abuse.

in short, its a parallel version of your right to swing your fist wherever you want stops where my nose starts.

im all for free market solutions to problems and individuals taking care of their own relationship issues & lives, but alcohol and drug abuse is quite frequently larger than an individual, family, or local ngo can deal with.

your repeating of "the government has no fucking business..." doesn't explain how it is that they indeed don't have a business when they are roughly charged with the general welfare of society and the protection of its citizens.

i am largely informed by john stuart mills' "harm principle" which is:

quote:

The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.




< Message edited by bounty44 -- 8/29/2016 6:15:19 AM >

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 6:26:04 AM   
thompsonx


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in the midst of your ranting, please go back and notice where you apparently missed the word I used: "abuse."


What is your issue with "self abuse"?

and again, ironically, when you say "if I don't cause any trouble...", you are indirectly articulating my position, that you have a social, if not legal, responsibility to not abuse.


Only in the mind of fascists.

im all for free market solutions to problems and individuals taking care of their own relationship issues & lives, but alcohol and drug abuse is quite frequently larger than an individual, family, or local ngo can deal with.


Sounds like the "nanny state" you constantly whine about

your repeating of "the government has no fucking business..." doesn't explain how it is that they indeed don't have a business when they are roughly charged with the general welfare of society and the protection of its citizens.


That is some serious disconnect dude. How is it the welfare of society when you prohibit the use of drugs but not the welfare of society to see that they are fed, clothed and housed.
More of that "nanny state" you constantly carp about?


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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 6:28:40 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"If it takes government level skullduggery to move large quantities of heroin into your country, how was anybody able to get hold of the stuff before the invasion of Afghanistan?"

Poppies grow other places of course. Also they used to cut the smack, and now they don't cut it as much which is why people are dying. They used to do X cc. of it and do the same amount but it is four times as pure. Like cracking cocaine, instead of buying crack, back in the 1980s we used to crack it ourselves, the more you got the better the coke was.

You are talking to someone who knows all about most drugs, and knows people who used to fly in a plane to go get weed. I know someone, I helped him set up his grow room and he got busted selling an ounce and beat them on appeal and was considering suing them to get his hydroponic equipment back. Another got busted with 200 fucking pounds, and with connections only did like a year. Another was given a rental car to take down to Texas with a trunkfull of stuff and they took the trunk key and mailed it in advance and gave him another trunk key. Unfortunately for him, that other key actually worked and he got busted. Our people asked the best lawyer they could find "Do you like to golf ?" and he said "What, are you going to buy me a set of golf clubs ?" and they said "No, you get this fixed we'll buy you a golf course".

You are talking to someone who knows this industry very well. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about on the subject. I've been involved with smuggling drugs into prisons, WITHOUT the help of the guards, which is the easy way. We did it the hard way.

The government brings almost all the heroin into this country, grown in Afghanistan after the Taliban was put down who would kill you for growing poppies for opiate production. I know this for a fact.

The only time the US government REALLY tried to stop drugs was under Gerald Ford, who was not elected but decided to spray Mexican pot fields with paraquat.

They want you to do drugs and then to bust you for it. It justifies their budget.

You are not qualified to comment on this subject, I can tell.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 8/29/2016 6:32:26 AM >

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 8:19:03 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Bullshit. The Taliban outlawed the production or poppies for opiate production and the penalty was death.

Because of course, bans are always effective in controlling drug production and sales: that's why there's no heroin use in America.
Besides which, the ban only came in 2000, and was repealed when they decided that selling drugs to unbelievers to fund religious works maybe wasn't a problem with their beliefs after all.

This page is still there.

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 8:41:37 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

Any attempt at prohibition will fail without the active support of the populace.
Inasmuch as I understand Tweakabelle posts crap like this so she can legitimise her crack-head lifestyle, there are significantly better efforts which detail the various forces behind the war on drugs and the reasons why it's a failure.

In social terms, the primary argument against it is the legitimisation of alcohol and tobacco - two drugs with highly visible and documented levels of social harm - versus other substances such as cannabis with comparatively minor effects.


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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 9:08:37 AM   
WickedsDesire


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This year, Afghanistan is expected to produce more opium than the world consumes. Although billions of dollars have been spent trying to eradicate the crop, in some places the trade seems more institutionalised than ever, with local police openly supporting farmers. Source http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36378228

They made Cannabis legal in some US states - and some other states require medical certificates for a skelf a splinter or sliver of wood often in the hand somewhere. and other complex medical conditions. Incidentally I have CFS/M.E. I tried it made me iller and a dear lass I know Multiple sclerosis - it helps her.

Some indigenous populations, and reservations, it is legal for them to use mind bending drugs.

They have a methadone program in the UK I think,#


Which countries have a drug problem? I don’t know tis why I am asking

“War on drugs” did Nixon start that did one of you say
Is not the inference any problems we have are not our own doing

Thompsonx do you know the difference between a Saint and a vampire ;) and the communion wine tastes lovely I thieved some in my rapscallion youth whence I was an alterboy – yes I was fortunate they didn’t abuse us in our parish – I think a later man of “god” did. And what was with all em papal seal malarkey – who signs off on those.

But that is a lot of opium, This year, Afghanistan is expected to produce more opium than the world consumes.

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 9:13:12 AM   
thompsonx


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Inasmuch as I understand Tweakabelle posts crap like this so she can legitimise her crack-head lifestyle,


What are your issues with crack?
It is one of the purest forms of cocaine.
Why are you in favor of adulterating drugs?

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 11:29:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

People who ain't got the fucking common sense not to abuse shit like that, let them die by their ow hand. What the fuck does anyone else care ? You dead you dead. So much for that.
Ahh, you are a true humanitarian, sir!

Yeah, let them die in the style they choose. I do not believe that forcing someone to live, especially straight and sober, is humanitarian. All drugs should be available over the counter, but maybe you need ID to prove you are of age to get the ones that can be abused.
And your sarcasm is appreciated. I treat the world the way it treated me.
T^T


Racist!! Ageist!! Anti-Democratic Party ... ist!!

How can you require an ID?!?!?!?

Racist!! Ageist!! Anti-Democratic Party ... ist!!

[/sarcasm]

< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 8/29/2016 12:03:54 PM >

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 11:41:01 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
because, even though im a highly individualist libertarian type, I recognize we live in community (think "no man is an island") and when the actions of others negatively impact society as a whole, and more importantly, hurt innocent individuals (ironically as in your example), then the government is justified in stepping in and doing something about it, such as prohibiting things and punishing their abuse.


What if they change the system so that something I do impacts society as a whole NOW, when it wasn't that way before they changed it?

Think about what you just said, too. If we ever get to the point where humans burning petroleum products is accepted as being deleterious to humans, you're saying that government would be 'justified in stepping in and doing something about it, such as prohibiting things and punishing their abuse.' Or, if we get single payer, then smokers and the obese would be negatively impacting 'society as a whole,' are you going to be okay with government 'stepping in and doing something about it, such as prohibiting things and punishing their abuse?'

As soon as you show government how it can acceptably gain power and authority, you can damn well be sure that it will start working towards that.

quote:

if we somehow think that society and other people would be okay if all of a sudden drugs were legal---I cannot envision a world where that actually occurs.


It wouldn't be "all of a sudden." But, with regulation (especially content control), you might just have fewer issues than you do now. At the very least, you'll have a new stream of income for government as drug transactions would be less and less done on the black market.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 12:05:23 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

As far as the whole "victimless crime" argument goes, can it not be assumed that the use of narcotics whose revenue goes to fund terrorist groups (heroin) or criminal cartels with a taste for shooting people (cocaine and, to a lesser extent, marijuana) might not be as victimless as all that in every case?
(One of the best reasons to legalise this stuff would be to deny asshats like that the money from the drugs trade, in fact. It'd be nearly as beneficial as the revenue that could be raised by taxing the stuff.)

And then all the criminals will go straight, never again turning to a life of crime . . .

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 12:59:56 PM   
thompsonx


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And then all the criminals will go straight, never again turning to a life of crime . . .


That is essentially true.
Since 70% of the people in prison are in prison for drug related crimes it would be logical that if drugs were legal those dealing in them (so called criminals) would now be legal, taxpaying business people.
Then there is the fact that with legalized drugs there would be 70% more cops dealing with crimes that were not drug related as well as freeing up 70% of the courts,prosecutors and public defenders and of course that would instantly put an end to the current prison overcrowding issue.

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 2:36:39 PM   
bounty44


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Status: offline 		all of civil life is a balancing and reconciling act between total liberty and the competing structures in which civilization flourishes.

we can "what if" or "what then" that until the cows come home and it doesn't change the essential nature of things.

I am not saying anything different now (that is in my previous posts) than what has been said by many a prominent philosopher before me.

most specifically when it comes to abusing mind altering substances, I am talking about direct and fairly immediate physical harm to others---fetal alcohol syndrome, crack babies, domestic abuse, drunk & drugged driving.

given that, if I have to chose in the tension between the libertine and the conservative view of things, I am going to lean towards the latter with as much libertarian thrown in as possible.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 8/29/2016 2:38:30 PM >

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 2:52:41 PM   
mnottertail


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sharias not being considered in any way conservative, I thought.

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RE: Undercover cop abandons 'war on drugs' - 8/29/2016 3:24:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Awareness

Inasmuch as I understand Tweakabelle posts crap like this so she can legitimise her crack-head lifestyle,


What are your issues with crack?
It is one of the purest forms of cocaine.
Why are you in favor of adulterating drugs?


Real bitch when we agree. But anyway, crack is the new word for freebase. That is actually a process by which it is purified for injection by hypodermic syringe. But of course it became a noun for the product of the process. So they changed it to crack.

One of the problems is in the past they used to charge you more if you got busted with purer cocaine. That doesn't change the fact that a smaller bulk is easier to hide for transport. That's why they put weed in trash compactors. You get paid by the pound. The wreck alot of weed doing that, mainly the commersh, which is not called reggie. When it comes to the cush, the high grade stuff they generally don't but you pay for the, to the tune of $400 an ounce.

Bottom fucking line is the war on drugs was never meant to be won. Neither is the war on terrorism. They got people fooled into thinking they are really doing something while they actually perpetuate the problem.

Remember the TV commercial ? "Pot might damage my chromosomes", "How do you even know you got chromosomes kid ?". Where the fuck did they get this shit about the chromosomes ? But smoking tobacco won't ? See, this is why I am skeptical about all the shit they say. Even global warming. I do not deny it at all, but the severity and how much of it is anthropogenic is an issue with me. Also, when they started making money off of it, what would you think ? Like, which is worse for you this week, butter or margarine ? Are they going to bring back DDT, and PCBs in transformers next ? I think it has to do with who has the most bribe, err, lobby money.

I do not deny global waring because it would be stupid to think that with all the shit we burn it won't warm the place up. But anything they say just goes out the other ear, especially when they turn it into a cash cow. OK, 90 % of the scientists, who PAYS 90 % of the scientists ?

You got the suits from Pfizer and Merck on the board at the FDA. You got shills from Monsanto and Cargill on the board of the USDA. You got a congress that needs bags for the lobby money. Next you either got a real estate mogul or an autistic broad for President. And you got a government that promotes criminality, and the breeding thereof. You got big business controlling everything, and they got you fooled. The insurance industry wrote the ACA. They also lobbied states to make car insurance mandatory even for people who never cause a car wreck. I don't have to pay for motherfuckers who are eating a pizza and texting while doing 50 MPH down a sidestreet. I do not have to pay for a borderline diabetic who insists on eating fast food and candy. That is the way it was, the way it is supposed to be. But then a doctor visit was ten bucks.

But I am almost done, and I mean really done. During this time I try to spread the word of common sense, which really is not common. You do not owe anyone anything. You were not born in sin. You do not have to love thy neighbor. Fuck all that. And what the "authorities" of any kind tell you is not always right and never was. I was catching their mistakes in the fucking 1970s. In this politically correct, money driven world, you think it is getting any better ? I would say if so you need your head examined but you can't even get that done right anymore. They'll just write a scrip ad later you go shoot up a school so they can write more gun laws.

T^T

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