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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/25/2016 9:19:00 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		No, I meant that if Irish indentured servants were sent to the New World, that doesn't mean slavery wasn't an injustice as well. Wasn't that the crux of the shit-storm?

Edited add: Instead of "Two wrongs don't make a right," I guess I should have said "One wrong doesn't cancel out another."

How to redress the injustices of the past is an immensely complicated question, so asking me "What's your solution?" comes across as disingenuous. How would you redress the unjust treatment of Native Americans? Of extinct species? And why are the injustices that I just mentioned less worthy of redress than slavery? They were ALL unspeakable.

As for affirmative action, since that was your specific question: depends on what you mean. When different people talk about "affirmative action," sometimes they're not even talking about the same thing. I'm all for trying to provide people with more nearly equal opportunities regardless of their background, but I'm profoundly skeptical when the purpose is to try to redress past discrimination. At that point it starts to become less effective, in my view, and I'm starting to sense that the crusade for affirmative action has gotten in the way of other possible modes of social justice. I don't believe any interest is served by denying this. Redressing past discrimination is not something that can be achieved, certainly not universally, so it ends up being invoked dishonestly and selectively. And it's important to remember that no one alive today is responsible for any aspect of slavery in this country, yet although the quarrel is with the oppressive majorities of the past, often enough it ends up being directed at the much more complex majorities of present.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So many online firestorms would be quelled if people just reminded themselves of one moral truth: two wrongs don't make a right.

How would you address the issues that affirmative action seeks to address?

That's kind of a non sequitur. I don't understand what your question has to do with what I said.

I took your post to mean that slavery/racism was a wrong and that aa was a wrong seeking to redress the wrongs of racism/slavery. That two wrongs do not make a right.
Have I misinterpreted your meaning?
If I have correctly understood your meaning then my question is how do we as a nation redress the inequities of slavery/racism?



< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/25/2016 9:20:09 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/25/2016 10:19:17 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, I meant that if Irish indentured servants were sent to the New World, that doesn't mean slavery wasn't an injustice as well. Wasn't that the crux of the shit-storm?

Edited add: Instead of "Two wrongs don't make a right," I guess I should have said "One wrong doesn't cancel out another."

How to redress the injustices of the past is an immensely complicated question, so asking me "What's your solution?" comes across as disingenuous. How would you redress the unjust treatment of Native Americans? Of extinct species? And why are the injustices that I just mentioned less worthy of redress than slavery? They were ALL unspeakable.

As for affirmative action, since that was your specific question: depends on what you mean. When different people talk about "affirmative action," sometimes they're not even talking about the same thing. I'm all for trying to provide people with more nearly equal opportunities regardless of their background, but I'm profoundly skeptical when the purpose is to try to redress past discrimination. At that point it starts to become less effective, in my view, and I'm starting to sense that the crusade for affirmative action has gotten in the way of other possible modes of social justice. I don't believe any interest is served by denying this. Redressing past discrimination is not something that can be achieved, certainly not universally, so it ends up being invoked dishonestly and selectively. And it's important to remember that no one alive today is responsible for any aspect of slavery in this country, yet although the quarrel is with the oppressive majorities of the past, often enough it ends up being directed at the much more complex majorities of present.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So many online firestorms would be quelled if people just reminded themselves of one moral truth: two wrongs don't make a right.

How would you address the issues that affirmative action seeks to address?

That's kind of a non sequitur. I don't understand what your question has to do with what I said.

I took your post to mean that slavery/racism was a wrong and that aa was a wrong seeking to redress the wrongs of racism/slavery. That two wrongs do not make a right.
Have I misinterpreted your meaning?
If I have correctly understood your meaning then my question is how do we as a nation redress the inequities of slavery/racism?



I don't think that was the point.
Nobody said that the Irish slavery canceled out the African slavery.
The point as I saw it, and as the OP tried to explain is that every group has been oppressed at some time, and at some point every group has been an oppressor. However if a group builds their current world view on what happened to their group decands, even centuries ago we will become like the Balkins where the Serbs were taking revenge for something that happened in the 14th century or Rowanda where maybe as many as a million people (by some extimates) were killed simply for brlonging to the wrong tribe.

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/26/2016 8:40:16 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and so you think the black folks thinking that too many black folks are being killed by policemen is some sort of revenge do you?

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/26/2016 9:02:16 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

How to redress the injustices of the past is an immensely complicated question, so asking me "What's your solution?" comes across as disingenuous. How would you redress the unjust treatment of Native Americans? Of extinct species? And why are the injustices that I just mentioned less worthy of redress than slavery? They were ALL unspeakable.




Simple, the isrealis solved that for us, eternal reparations.

The only solution is to prevent it from happening in the first place, and people will never see that as long as 'universally' sovereign gubblmints exist.

That said, the only office that lacks any level of recognition in the system is the 'Office of Citizen'. In other words if they [da gubblmint] can make the law without its citizens present and account for, then the citizen officers should have the ability to sue free of charge in which all trials mandate 'full discovery', no presumption in favor of the state, no possibility of summary judgment, and a jury of 12 regardless of forum or venue.

If you want a fix.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/26/2016 9:24:43 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/26/2016 1:06:17 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		OMG, I might have to start reading these forums again. Did the JETS game yesterday somehow lead you back to the CMMB?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/26/2016 1:10:42 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/26/2016 4:26:56 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I actually picked them to lose, so I wasn't surprised. Actually, losing by three touchdowns isn't so bad when you commit EIGHT turnovers. Usually when you turn the ball over eight times, you get blasted by about 40 points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

OMG, I might have to start reading these forums again. Did the JETS game yesterday somehow lead you back to the CMMB?


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/26/2016 5:26:41 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

A history teacher friend posted this link on Facebook, and it might interest folks here.

https://medium.com/@Limerick1914/the-imagery-of-the-irish-slaves-myth-dissected-143e70aa6e74#.vzcferrx5

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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/27/2016 2:07:44 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

A history teacher friend posted this link on Facebook, and it might interest folks here.

https://medium.com/@Limerick1914/the-imagery-of-the-irish-slaves-myth-dissected-143e70aa6e74#.vzcferrx5



(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/27/2016 3:46:12 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, I meant that if Irish indentured servants were sent to the New World, that doesn't mean slavery wasn't an injustice as well. Wasn't that the crux of the shit-storm?

The "shit storm" is wide ranging and that was an aspect of it.

Edited add: Instead of "Two wrongs don't make a right," I guess I should have said "One wrong doesn't cancel out another."

Yes that makes much more sense to me and I do agree with with it.

How to redress the injustices of the past is an immensely complicated question, so asking me "What's your solution?" comes across as disingenuous.

I have been called many things on this board but not disingenuous. My question to you was honest and seeking your input.

How would you redress the unjust treatment of Native Americans?

I would start by honoring the treaties our govenment signed and ignored. I should also think some sort of official appology for the genocide....perhaps clensing mt. rushmore and engraving the apology there would be a start.


Of extinct species?

Where possible, sanction those responsible. Strengthen the epa to enforce existing regulations.


And why are the injustices that I just mentioned less worthy of redress than slavery? They were ALL unspeakable.



Slavery was certainly a form of genocide.


As for affirmative action, since that was your specific question: depends on what you mean. When different people talk about "affirmative action," sometimes they're not even talking about the same thing. I'm all for trying to provide people with more nearly equal opportunities regardless of their background, but I'm profoundly skeptical when the purpose is to try to redress past discrimination.


Redressing past discrimination is the crux of aa. because different groups (native amerikans,women, people of color, the mentally challanged...thinking here of all the mental patients tossed on the street by gov. raygun in california...)have been systematically deprived of not only their civil rights but also access to the "amerikan dream".


At that point it starts to become less effective, in my view, and I'm starting to sense that the crusade for affirmative action has gotten in the way of other possible modes of social justice. I don't believe any interest is served by denying this. Redressing past discrimination is not something that can be achieved, certainly not universally, so it ends up being invoked dishonestly and selectively.


What I have noticed is that it is primarily those who disaprove of the goals of aa are the ones invoking it dishonestly and selectively by consistantly placing unqualified people in positions of visibility so as to point to the "wrongness/ineffectiveness" of aa.


And it's important to remember that no one alive today is responsible for any aspect of slavery in this country,


There are more than a few cases in our history of a decendant claiming redress and being compensated. for example a decendant of a farmer whose horses were commandered by union forces durring the civil war and being issued a reciept that he could present to the government for reimbursment. The decendent, more than a hundred years later found the reciept and submitted it for payment and were reimbursed at current market value plus more than a hundred years of compound interest. If that debt against people dead for a hundred years is valid then why not the uncompensated labor for three hundred years of slavery. Keeping in mind that it was the taxes on the product of that uncompensated labor that supported this country at that time. You and I can leave the largess of our labor to our decendants why not they? By they I am also including the fees and emoulements guaranteed by treaty to the native amerikans


yet although the quarrel is with the oppressive majorities of the past, often enough it ends up being directed at the much more complex majorities of present.


The majorities of today are essentally the majorities of trhe past.


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/27/2016 7:07:30 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Since that's simply not true, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The majorities of today are essentally the majorities of trhe past.


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/27/2016 9:10:47 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The majorities of today are essentally the majorities of trhe past.


Since that's simply not true, we're going to have to agree to disagree.


The majority (as in the ruling class) then was white, male, economically stable and christian. How has that changed?

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/27/2016 6:31:33 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You really haven't looked at the demographics of the United States recently if you think the majorities of today are essentially the same as the majorities before the Civil War. I don't even see how this is open to dispute. More to the point, your argument in favor of affirmation action should not have to stand or fall on this issue. (Whenever an argument requires you to deny reality, it's time for a better argument.) Affirmative action should be about improving opportunities for people who are systematically denied them--regardless of the demographics of this country in 1860.

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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/28/2016 3:37:34 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You really haven't looked at the demographics of the United States recently if you think the majorities of today are essentially the same as the majorities before the Civil War.


I am not unaware of the demographics of amerika today. My point was the demographic of the rueling class in which I see little change...some women and people of color have been added but not enough to change the majority of "white,economically stable christians males"

I don't even see how this is open to dispute.

I would be happy to look at any evidence to the contrary?

More to the point, your argument in favor of affirmation action should not have to stand or fall on this issue.



The arguement for aa does not rest on the demographic but rather on the circumstance stated above re: Debts owed to people alive today generated by people not alive today.


(Whenever an argument requires you to deny reality, it's time for a better argument.)


I have seen no evidence of my denying reality but would be most interested in seeing any evidence of such.

Affirmative action should be about improving opportunities for people who are systematically denied them--regardless of the demographics of this country in 1860.

I would agree that "improving opportunities for those who have been systematically denied them is one aspect of of what aa should be about but not the only one.
What do you feel would be a productive avenue to follow in this quest?
I would also agree that the demographics of amerika is not necessarily an aspect of the equation. It was mearly an observation on my part.

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