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RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 2:08:31 PM

dcnovice

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nm

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 9/22/2016 3:05:36 PM >

_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 41

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 2:11:12 PM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR...
Sounds to me like the fault of the american education system
That and a whine by bigots trying to lessen and ignore what is happening now.
Wheres the real history from teh native americans point of view, or the chinese or the japanese just going back a century
How far do you want to go back with history just so you can justify your ignorance of how people are being treated now in your own back yard.
Yes History is important, but today is more important.

You seriously think Black Lives Matter is all about what's happening today and has no part of their foundation based on the past? The Black Panthers? The Nation of Islam? Al Sharpton? The Reverend Jackson? Given how often history of past transgressions is brought up as an explanation and even justification for their actions now by people not even involved in those groups, I'd be willing to bet that those involved in those movement would also.

Disagreement over the reasons for what's happening now isn't always due to ignorance or a failure to take note of what's going on around you.

Because its still happening. Derp. TODAY and everyday.
witness the two guys getting shot in charlotte and tulsa...neither criminals, neither being sought, they just happened to scare a cop and died for it.
Cops are trained in dealing with sudden conflict...
Civilians dont get lessons or training in scary conditions, unless they find themselves in a dangerous situation. its a bit late then
BLM is about police brutality, it should have been a movement a LONG time ago.

btw bigots on both sides, of course you have never seen me say that before have you.

Edited to add, the cop who shot Crutcher has been charged with manslaughter...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/us/tulsa-officer-charged-in-fatal-shooting-of-black-driver.html?emc=edit_na_20160922&nlid=69606674&ref=headline&_r=0

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 9/22/2016 2:12:22 PM >

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(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 42

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 2:43:13 PM

Nnanji

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There is essential truth in Liam Hogan's argument that the Irish in the West Indies and Barbados especially were not chattel slaves.

Exactly! So, you wish to compare 10,000 Irish indentured servants severely mistreated in Barbados to ten million African chattel slaves and an unknown number who were thrown overboard en-route? And then did these Irish suffer further abuse and Jim Crow laws after they were freed? Did they have to stay on the plantations as poor share croppers? I do not see an equivalency here.

Furthermore, AFAIK, the term white privilege has never been applied to the Irish of Barbados. That is singularly an American characteristic.

I think you're missing the fact that there is more critism of your source than affirmation.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 43

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 3:02:59 PM

dcnovice

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

based on resentment for something that happened 150 years ago,

Emphasis mine. You seem to be saying that blacks and whites in the U.S. have been on an equal footing since 1866.

Is that what you mean?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 44

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 3:05:04 PM

thishereboi

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I don't remember them ever talking about this, thanks for sharing

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(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 45

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 3:37:04 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You seriously think Black Lives Matter is all about what's happening today and has no part of their foundation based on the past?

I know this wasn't posed to me, but I think it's a crucial question.

I think the echo chamber of history totally plays a key role in both BLM and the disconnect between many whites and blacks on the topic of police shootings. My fellow whites and I sometimes manifest an impatience with the furor arising from what may seem a statistically small number of violent deaths. What I suspect we don't "get" at a gut level is the dismay arising from the perception of "Holy shit, once again in our long, grim history, the power structure totally discounts our lives." At least, that's what many of the African American voices I've heard/read seem to be saying.

So any time someone shows any resistance to the police it is reasonable for them to think about things like Dallas say oh shit here we go again and cut loose.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 46

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 3:39:28 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

based on resentment for something that happened 150 years ago,

Emphasis mine. You seem to be saying that blacks and whites in the U.S. have been on an equal footing since 1866.

Is that what you mean?

HA HA HA
You know that they always go back to slavery which did.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 47

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 3:53:43 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR...
Sounds to me like the fault of the american education system
That and a whine by bigots trying to lessen and ignore what is happening now.
Wheres the real history from teh native americans point of view, or the chinese or the japanese just going back a century
How far do you want to go back with history just so you can justify your ignorance of how people are being treated now in your own back yard.
Yes History is important, but today is more important.

You seriously think Black Lives Matter is all about what's happening today and has no part of their foundation based on the past? The Black Panthers? The Nation of Islam? Al Sharpton? The Reverend Jackson? Given how often history of past transgressions is brought up as an explanation and even justification for their actions now by people not even involved in those groups, I'd be willing to bet that those involved in those movement would also.

Disagreement over the reasons for what's happening now isn't always due to ignorance or a failure to take note of what's going on around you.

Because its still happening. Derp. TODAY and everyday.
witness the two guys getting shot in charlotte and tulsa...neither criminals, neither being sought, they just happened to scare a cop and died for it.
Cops are trained in dealing with sudden conflict...
Civilians dont get lessons or training in scary conditions, unless they find themselves in a dangerous situation. its a bit late then
BLM is about police brutality, it should have been a movement a LONG time ago.

btw bigots on both sides, of course you have never seen me say that before have you.

Edited to add, the cop who shot Crutcher has been charged with manslaughter...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/us/tulsa-officer-charged-in-fatal-shooting-of-black-driver.html?emc=edit_na_20160922&nlid=69606674&ref=headline&_r=0

Edited to add: Keith Lamont Scott, the black man shot by a black police officer, was carrying a gun...not a book...according to the black police chief. Hopes that this statement...all g with a plea from Mr. Scott's wife and family... will stop a third night of riots with harm inflicted on people who had NOTHING to do with this will almost certainly be dashed.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 48

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 4:12:44 PM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

of course he had a gun...thats why they wont release the video.
yeah right
It wont stop the protests

_____________________________

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<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 49

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 4:14:32 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

So any time someone shows any resistance to the police it is reasonable for them to think about things like Dallas say oh shit here we go again and cut loose.

quote:

HA HA HA
You know that they always go back to slavery which did.

Oh my.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 50

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 4:32:41 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course he had a gun...thats why they wont release the video.
yeah right
It wont stop the protests

They won't release it to the general public...not should they...but the family will be viewing it.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 51

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 4:44:27 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

They won't release it to the general public...not should they

CD, why do you think they shouldn't?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 52

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 4:49:50 PM

Nnanji

Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

of course he had a gun...thats why they wont release the video.
yeah right
It wont stop the protests

They won't release it to the general public...not should they...but the family will be viewing it.

The family with three family attorney's. The lead family attorney assures us he'll review the video thoroughly. I wonder why anyone would scoff at that while an ongoing investigation is underway?

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 53

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 4:53:20 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

They won't release it to the general public...not should they

CD, why do you think they shouldn't?

Simply put...the public will see what it wants to see.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 54

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 4:54:22 PM

CreativeDominant

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http://thefederalistpapers.integratedmarket.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/21781_677810255659094_752473148233552515_n-500x669.jpg

(in reply to Nnanji)

Post #: 55

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 5:11:23 PM

longwayhome

Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline

That's what the world needs now - more competitive victimhood.

Ireland and the Irish were long used as a kicking post by the ruling classes in Britain, their neighbouring island from not long after the split between the Irish and Scottish Dál Riata separated the political systems of the two islands. It is a sad history of intentional and unintentional oppression, made more tragic by some of the deep divisions in Irish society itself. In more recent centuries the Irish and other groups from these islands were transported often against their will or by false pretence. This is not just a matter of British and Irish history - serfdom in one form or another existed in Europe long after feudalism is thought to have died.

These squalid aspects of our history are very real. More importantly all of this is there hiding in plain sight for anyone interested in history to read if they want. There is no conspiracy or cover up. These are central themes of British and European history. (Indeed it is easy to find themes of oppression in most history without much effort.)

Basing your own personal identity in the here and now on past injustice from generations ago is however an unfortunate choice. As is misusing the history of the Irish diaspora to minimise the experience of black slavery, the repercussions of which are not equivalent to white indentured slavery. These repercussions are largely felt in the Americas where black slavery was a major aspect of society. The UK, although very involved in the slave trade, managed to externalise all of this as an imperial power so British minority ethnic populations, who came to the UK largely by choice, tended to have had different experiences, although by no means untroubled.

In short there is no cover up. There is a rich history of the oppression of poor white Europeans. What worries me is the attempt to parade this as a modern day political point to use against African Americans by minimising black slavery and playing down the all too real issues facing African Americans in modern day America.

The impression given is that there is some kind of equivalence between the experience of being of Irish descent and being of African descent in the United States today, based on the fact that some people feel their school history lessons didn't concentrate enough on the oppression of the Irish.

In short I find the suggestion that people of Irish descent are so happy go lucky therefore people of African decent have no cause for argument or dissent to be misguided at best and sinister at worst.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 56

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 5:15:53 PM

longwayhome

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Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

"I am also of Irish descent & always grew up being proud of my heritage. I didn't learn any of these facts until I took a history class in college. I wanted to crawl under the table when I first heard it. Now, I've come to surmise that it's not necessarily taught because the Irish moved on & by not dwelling on past atrocities, we've been able to raise our status in the world. Wouldn't it be awesome if all races were just proud & focused on the bright future & not the dark past?".

http://settingrecordstraight.blogspot.com/2015/03/irish-forgotten-white-slaves.html?m=1

People might want to read the other articles in this blog just to get an impression about what views are actually being promoted here.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 57

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 5:19:27 PM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Really? You want to show a pic of a guy linking arms (who was assassinated for his protests) as a good thing, but bashing shit up isnt?
so do you want all protesters to die? or is it just that you think you can decide what protesting should be like(cos it worked SO well for MLK?)
Thats a bunch of rhetorical questions, Im not interested in your attempt to tell me what it "really" means.

Full of sarcasm

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 58

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 5:45:27 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Really? You want to show a pic of a guy linking arms (who was assassinated for his protests) as a good thing, but bashing shit up isnt?
so do you want all protesters to die? or is it just that you think you can decide what protesting should be like(cos it worked SO well for MLK?)
Thats a bunch of rhetorical questions, Im not interested in your attempt to tell me what it "really" means.

Full of sarcasm

If they're rioting, they're not protesting. King seemed to know that...pity you and the rioters don't. Of course, King was a man who wasn't interested in free, stolen stuff...he was interested in change. I know it would work better for your narrative above if King had been killed by an out of control cop...but he wasn't.

Show me one place where I said I want all the rioters to die.

Tis a shame they're not as concerned over the violence they do to innocents as you are over any violence done to them in an effort to quell the violence, the damage, the pain they're inflicting.

http://www.wcnc.com/mb/news/local/keith-scott-shooting/tv-crew-injured-in-thursday-night-riots/324043746

https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/us/2016/09/22/riots-over-police-shooting-engulf-charlotte-for-2nd-straight-night.amp.html?client=ms-android-verizon

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article103009432.html

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 59

RE: If you're over 55, do you remember being taught this? - 9/22/2016 6:17:27 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

They won't release it to the general public...not should they

CD, why do you think they shouldn't?

Should all evidence in cases not involving a cop be released to the public, making an unbiased jury an absolute impossibility?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 60

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