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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 9:46:46 PM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

With all the bullshit from people in other countries basically condemning and criticizing the US for every damn thing from guns, to cops to taxes, to basic laws, I find myself agreeing with Trumps isolationist ideas.

[Edited]

Pull out of NATO and the UN and tell Putin if he wants Europe to take it, and if the European countries want us to help stop em, $1 million per soldier per day, with a minimum of one year paid in gold in advance.


I get the frustration but the US is involved in the world because you need to be.

The US is far from self-sufficient economically and your security is not just about the Canadian and Mexican borders. Even if you didn't care about humanitarian issues, you guys have a standard of living to maintain and the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans mean nothing ever since you bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki and we all developed missiles.

It's hard to deny that we have collectively contributed to fucking up the Middle East, but to use the Roman expression used by Jefferson it's a bit like "having the wolf by the ears" in that you can neither safely hold him or let him go.

Ask the UK, France and Germany to name just a few countries about the costs of intervention, the loss of life at home and abroad and the criticism that comes from it. As a Brit, we are still hated for things we did last year, last decade and even centuries ago, including by many US citizens. Ask the French about isolationism and terrorism. Ask the Germans if not intervening militarily in any major way since the world wars has protected them from world events and hundreds of thousands of refugees.

You guys weren't just reluctant allies in two world wars, you considered us so much of a threat and had active plans to go to war with us, starting by invade our closest ally Canada from the Revolution right up until your intervention in the Second World War - plans which were actively updated in the 1920s and 1930s because you just didn't trust "imperialist" Britain, let alone the rest of Europe. And then you only "intervened" in the Second World War because Japan attacked you, not because you wanted to defend your European "friends" against the Nazis.

The current NATO arrangements aren't a special favour, they are in the interests of all members, including the US as the largest and richest. It might be tempting to leave Europe to its fate and we might all moan about each other but we are intertwined whether we like it or not. You don't really believe that a Europe dominated by Russia with a clear huge strategic and economic advantage over the US is in your interests?

Imagine Pakistan falling to Islamic extremism, along with their nuclear arsenal. Although you guys have really pissed them off (arguably in your own strategic interest) thank goodness, your "friends" in the UK and the rest of Europe maintain good military relationships with Pakistan (and India for that matter, despite the tensions) something you have struggled to do, perhaps for understandable reasons. No matter how strong you think you are, I laugh when I hear a small number of deluded Americans talking about treating Pakistan as a hostile power and their nukes if something goes wrong. You would be slaughtered in your thousands.

We all need friends even if they piss us off and moan about us.

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 10:10:37 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		If I ever comment on US domestic issues it is usually because the themes are universal and can be applied to many countries. But more than that, I care about what happens in the US and Europe, precisely because we are so connected. On a personal level, I have family who live in the States.

US elections and other issues get significant air time in the UK - not because people want to criticise but because it genuinely matters to people.

Of course there are numpties here who slag off the States, put labels on you and turn you into caricatures. If those people don't get what a wonderful, country the US is, with a rich and diverse culture and history, more fool them.

There is a big difference between being thoughtful, giving a damn and expressing an opinion on one hand, and taking cheap shots for the sake of it on the other.

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 10:16:53 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
And then you only "intervened" in the Second World War because Japan attacked you, not because you wanted to defend your European "friends" against the Nazis.

Uh...no. What about all that war material we sent you before we got involved with troops? It was called "Lend-Lease".

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 10:31:06 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		What part of keeping the trade but pulling our troops home did you not grasp?

Half the US military is deployed over seas on a more or less permanent basis.

The whole "US interests and citizens are the target of Islamic Terrorists" stems from our involvement with Israel, and not doing anything but politely scold them when they go and do something they know is going to piss off the rest of the region.

The simple truth of the matter is that the 10's of billions it costs annually to maintain our forces over seas is more than we can afford. Hell, we are in Europe to help defend Europe from Russia and we have to pay Europe for the bases we use!

It costs us $150 billion annually to maintain bases over seas. That money could be better spent rebuilding US infrastructure.

Throw in the anti US protests, it surely seems we ain't wanted in most of those countries.

At last estimate, it would cost nearly 90 billion to repair the bridges, dams, highways and modernize the railroads, which the US aint got.

So it makes sense to cut spending in places where there are anti US protests almost daily.

As far as the Pakistani Nuclear arsenal, remember India has nukes as well, if Pakistan was to fall to Islamic Extremists, I doubt India would sit idly by. Hell, the biggest threat to the region is the tension between those two countries on a fucking monthly, almost daily basis.

Both countries have nukes, but their delivery systems leave a lot to be desired.

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 10:53:59 PM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
And then you only "intervened" in the Second World War because Japan attacked you, not because you wanted to defend your European "friends" against the Nazis.

Uh...no. What about all that war material we sent you before we got involved with troops? It was called "Lend-Lease".


What you say is entirely valid. It was of course more complex than that.

The UK would never have survived the first part of the war, after the invasion of France when it alone against Hilter, without US support.

This was true as well in the First World War where, although we controlled the Atlantic and the North Sea (and US troops were less critical to the final victory), we would never have been able to feed our population without the US being there to supply us. The US also ensured that we didn't run out of finance because the war nearly bankrupted us. Germany was more or less starved out of the war in 1918.

The point is that our relationship as "allies" and "friends" wasn't straightforward. It was hampered by diplomatic differences and a quite understandable US towards isolationism. Thank goodness for both our countries and for Europe that we did deal with those issues and become close allies. That was not a done deal before the US entered the war after Pearl Harbour.

It is vital that governments in the US and Europe do not retreat into isolationism because the alliance we formed from 1939-45 has made the world a safer place.

Now is not the time to have doubts or unpick that alliance with an aggressive expansionist Russia, and IS right on our borders. Peace depends on the certainty that if you attack one NATO country you attack them all. That is in the best interests of the US as well as Europe.

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 11:22:19 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
The point is that our relationship as "allies" and "friends" wasn't straightforward.

"England and America are two countries separated by a common language"

~ George Bernard Shaw (iirc)



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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 11:28:54 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

With all the bullshit from people in other countries basically condemning and criticizing the US for every damn thing from guns, to cops to taxes, to basic laws, I find myself agreeing with Trumps isolationist ideas.

[Edited]

Pull out of NATO and the UN and tell Putin if he wants Europe to take it, and if the European countries want us to help stop em, $1 million per soldier per day, with a minimum of one year paid in gold in advance.


I get the frustration but the US is involved in the world because you need to be.

The US is far from self-sufficient economically and your security is not just about the Canadian and Mexican borders. Even if you didn't care about humanitarian issues, you guys have a standard of living to maintain and the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans mean nothing ever since you bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki and we all developed missiles.

It's hard to deny that we have collectively contributed to fucking up the Middle East, but to use the Roman expression used by Jefferson it's a bit like "having the wolf by the ears" in that you can neither safely hold him or let him go.

Ask the UK, France and Germany to name just a few countries about the costs of intervention, the loss of life at home and abroad and the criticism that comes from it. As a Brit, we are still hated for things we did last year, last decade and even centuries ago, including by many US citizens. Ask the French about isolationism and terrorism. Ask the Germans if not intervening militarily in any major way since the world wars has protected them from world events and hundreds of thousands of refugees.

You guys weren't just reluctant allies in two world wars, you considered us so much of a threat and had active plans to go to war with us, starting by invade our closest ally Canada from the Revolution right up until your intervention in the Second World War - plans which were actively updated in the 1920s and 1930s because you just didn't trust "imperialist" Britain, let alone the rest of Europe. And then you only "intervened" in the Second World War because Japan attacked you, not because you wanted to defend your European "friends" against the Nazis.

The current NATO arrangements aren't a special favour, they are in the interests of all members, including the US as the largest and richest. It might be tempting to leave Europe to its fate and we might all moan about each other but we are intertwined whether we like it or not. You don't really believe that a Europe dominated by Russia with a clear huge strategic and economic advantage over the US is in your interests?

Imagine Pakistan falling to Islamic extremism, along with their nuclear arsenal. Although you guys have really pissed them off (arguably in your own strategic interest) thank goodness, your "friends" in the UK and the rest of Europe maintain good military relationships with Pakistan (and India for that matter, despite the tensions) something you have struggled to do, perhaps for understandable reasons. No matter how strong you think you are, I laugh when I hear a small number of deluded Americans talking about treating Pakistan as a hostile power and their nukes if something goes wrong. You would be slaughtered in your thousands.

We all need friends even if they piss us off and moan about us.

You forget a couple of things.
1. We also got involved in WWI
2. Lend Lease
3. Escorting convoys half way across the Atlantic.
And a lot of other things. Roosevelt wanted to get into the war tohelp Europe as shown by the fact that 9/10 of our effort and resources were devoted to Euorpe.

Every country in the world has contigency plans they never expect to use just on case.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/1/2016 11:59:53 PM   
epiphiny43


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Joined: 10/20/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

What part of keeping the trade but pulling our troops home did you not grasp?

Half the US military is deployed over seas on a more or less permanent basis.

It's not my policy to argue with the willfully ignorant any more than the deliberately stupid. It's like getting in a gun fight with someone with no hands, and no gun.
Current US deployment in the US and territories: 1,145,952.
Deployment to all other nations and territories: Just under 150,000. US DoD figures from Sept. '15, the last official ones available quoted by the Wikipedia article, (wait for it . . . ) "United States military deployments". Ya Coulda looked? Do the arithmetic, we have the time. The division isn't all that close to 2:1. Actually more like 7.6 US troops inside the wider USA for every troop deployed outside it. You are excused, please sit down and Study?

quote:


The whole "US interests and citizens are the target of Islamic Terrorists" stems from our involvement with Israel, and not doing anything but politely scold them when they go and do something they know is going to piss off the rest of the region.

Have you actually thought about listening/reading Anything the Islamic extremests have to say? It isn't like they have some hidden agenda, being quite excellent propagandists and ideologues.
Their Main objection is the cultural steamrollering of the consumerist and 'humanist' Western culture subverting the young of Islamic countries, and our cultural imperialism attacking (albeit largely unconsciously) almost all of the underpinning values and practices making up a population of devout followers of traditional Islam. They aren't quite right, in what constitutes historic or observant Islam, but they are dead on about how the consumerist Hollywood and current social products and social digital communication are undercutting the traditional passing of values and practices of the older generations. The conflict in Israel is just the juicy dressing on their propaganda against the West and our bias against any religious values or lifestyle. I share much of their antipathy towards the massive manipulations by multinational corporations and the equally damaging media flood of (unconscious, but relentless) consumerist values and goods. I just don't see traditional religion of any sort as an effective counter or even much of a better place to be. We have to reinvent ourselves and our culture in other terms than the quarterly profits of stock holders on the major financial markets. This requires actually looking at who we have become, who we seem to want to be, and what futures these probably will be if we do get that. Why current political discourse is so sterile and purile, there Are so few values and zero real examination of the likely results of the choices being advocated. What constitutes most debate is mal-intentioned attempts to frighten the ill-informed to positions they have no idea of the consequences of. Which this quoted post is a perfect example of these achievements.

quote:


The simple truth of the matter is that the 10's of billions it costs annually to maintain our forces over seas is more than we can afford.

Damn right! Only, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a WAR.
quote:


Hell, we are in Europe to help defend Europe from Russia and we have to pay Europe for the bases we use!

Have you ever read Any agreement and economics of any US overseas basing??
quote:


It costs us $150 billion annually to maintain bases over seas. That money could be better spent rebuilding US infrastructure.

No argument as to the need for responsible investment in infrastructure, but Americans prefer to vote for Republicans instead.
Whatever the figure, EVERY administration and Congress of either or both parties have decided a minimum of war on the planet is worth at least what we are paying.
quote:


Throw in the anti US protests, it surely seems we ain't wanted in most of those countries.

I'm pretty sure you don't feel US public policy should be set by a small gathering of people here getting media coverage for a few hours who are even less responsible or educated than yourself. Why give this power to whatever misguided, fringe lunatic, or paid provocateurs get air time in another country?
quote:


At last estimate, it would cost nearly 90 billion to repair the bridges, dams, highways and modernize the railroads, which the US aint got.

JEEZE! Do you read Anything? $90B only begins to start the necessary Maintenance on current roads. Actually doing right by the existing infrastructure is too scary to calculate. The needed investment in new and transformative infrastructure is multiples of that. And this is in Every country on the planet. Why lunatic thieves like Putin are wasting time the people of our planet simply don't have to waste if we are to survive in any recognizeable society. Don't even start with the mindless in power like all the klepto dictatorships in Africa or the sociopaths like are in charge of Pakistan and dozens of other countries.
quote:


So it makes sense to cut spending in places where there are anti US protests almost daily.
Again, you want to give international power over US military policy, diplomacy and trade to whoever throws a party, donates a keg and paints a few posters and gets some video footage on TV or online????? Put down the Tequila, step back, and nobody gets hurt. You shouldn't drive drunk, nor post.
quote:


As far as the Pakistani Nuclear arsenal, remember India has nukes as well, if Pakistan was to fall to Islamic Extremists, I doubt India would sit idly by. Hell, the biggest threat to the region is the tension between those two countries on a fucking monthly, almost daily basis.

Both countries have nukes, but their delivery systems leave a lot to be desired.

Have you Ever heard of www.BBC.com/news? Read this week's coverage of Kashmir. No IS takeover needed, we may have nukes flying within the month. Far more than enough chauvinism, duplicity, idiocy and bloodymindedness for that to happen already in place.

I wouldn't post to you if I didn't see real humanity in other opinions you've shown. But I'm pretty disappointed today. All knee jerk responses to programed messages from media voices that have no good intent. There ARE values and potential outside the propaganda of the major US political parties contending for dominance. I'd hazard a guess almost all hope for the future is outside conventional politics in any Western Country.


< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 10/2/2016 12:09:15 AM >

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 12:04:58 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

What part of keeping the trade but pulling our troops home did you not grasp?

Half the US military is deployed over seas on a more or less permanent basis.

The whole "US interests and citizens are the target of Islamic Terrorists" stems from our involvement with Israel, and not doing anything but politely scold them when they go and do something they know is going to piss off the rest of the region.

The simple truth of the matter is that the 10's of billions it costs annually to maintain our forces over seas is more than we can afford. Hell, we are in Europe to help defend Europe from Russia and we have to pay Europe for the bases we use!

It costs us $150 billion annually to maintain bases over seas. That money could be better spent rebuilding US infrastructure.

Throw in the anti US protests, it surely seems we ain't wanted in most of those countries.

At last estimate, it would cost nearly 90 billion to repair the bridges, dams, highways and modernize the railroads, which the US aint got.

So it makes sense to cut spending in places where there are anti US protests almost daily.

As far as the Pakistani Nuclear arsenal, remember India has nukes as well, if Pakistan was to fall to Islamic Extremists, I doubt India would sit idly by. Hell, the biggest threat to the region is the tension between those two countries on a fucking monthly, almost daily basis.

Both countries have nukes, but their delivery systems leave a lot to be desired.


I don't disagree that the US has to review how it spends its money in a democratic country with domestic priorities. Many people agree that US military spending could be cut back without hugely harming your military capabilities and strength.

I also agree that the relationship with Israel does nothing to ease Middle Eastern tensions. Even European leaders tend to think that US policy towards Israel has been overly indulgent. That has certainly allowed Israel to feel free not to come to accommodations with the Palestinians or its neighbours. Although not the sole cause of terrorism in the Middle East, it remains a raying cry for the disaffected youth around the world.

The part of what you said that worried me was that the US should withdraw the troops and "let the rest of the world rip its guts out" in relation to US policy in Europe, the Middle East and Asia. We cannot afford risk any kind of conflict in mainland Europe.

To let Russia think for one moment that there will not be massive retaliation by the whole of NATO if it fails to respect the territorial integrity of Eastern Europe would be disastrous. We are not talking about the UK and US where our losses in Iraq and Afghanistan became an issue in public opinion. The Russian people simply do not have that world view and do not fear military losses. It's the threat of total war or complete capitulation. There is no in between. We have been too comfortable in assuming that the Western world is safe. That safety was based on thousands of troops and a huge nuclear arsenal. And it still is.

Obama has been right to publicly demand increased military spending in Western Europe. It has fallen too far and is now rising too slowly. The US cannot be expected to fill the gap, besides which a European force is required for future Yugoslavias. Don't see that happening any time s son? Well we didn't see it at the time either. Disgracefully the UK has been without an operation aircraft carrier for a number of years and our troops can barely form a fighting Division, except alongside other NATO resources. It is a sad state of affairs.

I do think that Europe needs to make a bigger contribution but even with increased European spending, a full-scale American troop withdrawal (or even the suggestion of it) would be a disastrous. Even the suggestion of it undermines the basis of western security.

As for the Pakistan situation, that is a whole subject on its own, one which your allies have a far better handle on than you do, but it is a world strategic issue, which we are just about doing enough to hold together.

The US does not and cannot stand alone, strategically or economically.

As such the US absolutely should review how it spends its enormous military budget, and demand greater input from Europe. However when I hear Trump saying that he wouldn't defend the smaller countries in Eastern Europe if they don't pay, he terrifies US and European politicians and defence agencies alike, as a result of the dangerous message he has sent to Putin about annexation.

Have we learned nothing from the history of the last 100 years?


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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 12:16:05 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You forget a couple of things.
1. We also got involved in WWI
2. Lend Lease
3. Escorting convoys half way across the Atlantic.
And a lot of other things. Roosevelt wanted to get into the war tohelp Europe as shown by the fact that 9/10 of our effort and resources were devoted to Euorpe.

Every country in the world has contigency plans they never expect to use just on case.


I accept pretty much all of that. What I said was a gross over-simplification.

As I responded to RottenJohnny above.


quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
And then you only "intervened" in the Second World War because Japan attacked you, not because you wanted to defend your European "friends" against the Nazis.

Uh...no. What about all that war material we sent you before we got involved with troops? It was called "Lend-Lease".


What you say is entirely valid. It was of course more complex than that.

The UK would never have survived the first part of the war, after the invasion of France when it [stood] alone against Hilter, without US support.

[By that I meant we would never have survived without US support not that we stood alone against Hitler without US support. ]

This was true as well in the First World War where, although we controlled the Atlantic and the North Sea (and US troops were less critical to the final victory), we would never have been able to feed our population without the US being there to supply us. The US also ensured that we didn't run out of finance because the war nearly bankrupted us. Germany was more or less starved out of the war in 1918.

The point is that our relationship as "allies" and "friends" wasn't straightforward. It was hampered by diplomatic differences and a quite understandable US isolationism. Thank goodness for both our countries and for Europe that we did deal with those issues and become close allies. That was not a done deal before the US entered the war after Pearl Harbour.

It is vital that governments in the US and Europe do not retreat into isolationism because the alliance we formed from 1939-45 has made the world a safer place.

Now is not the time to have doubts or unpick that alliance with an aggressive expansionist Russia, and IS right on our borders. Peace depends on the certainty that if you attack one NATO country you attack them all. That is in the best interests of the US as well as Europe.



Of course the US plans for war with the UK and Canada were contingency plans, but they were a sign that there was not real trust between the UK and the US until they entered their full alliance in WW2 - an alliance that has served the US and Europe well and maintained 70 years of peace.

[Edited for typos - well those I spotted!]

< Message edited by longwayhome -- 10/2/2016 12:23:55 AM >

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RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 12:45:52 AM   
DaddySatyr


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The Jews have been kicked out or killed out of every country (where they have had a significant population) with the exception of the U.S.

Our helping them establish their own homeland in the way that we did it may have been ill-advised, but they needed a homeland.

I am all for pulling our troops from around the world (with a few exceptions where we might have a legitimate interest) and placing them on our border to truly protect our country (as opposed to international business interests).

Free trade? What a fuckin' farce! One of the main arguments for free trade, early on, was: "Countries that trade together don't fight wars with each other". That's proven to be completely wrong in one way: China hasn't pointed a weapon at us, but they're literally sucking the life blood out of us. Mexico, too.

I used to live in an overwhelmingly Mezo-American neighborhood where most of the men came here illegally, worked off the books (paid no taxes), and lived 8-20 to a house (they slept in shifts) and sent the lion's share of their American dollars back home. That is killing us, also.

Our relationship with Europe has been very good for Europe, but I fail to see what it has done for us (other than cost us a ton of money to be Europe's military force, in most cases).

Quite frankly, I could not possibly care less what Europe would like to see happen here. I think it's about time we start worrying about us, first; not what's good for every other mother-fucker and his simpleton brother especially when those same mother-fuckers would gladly walk over the rubble of what used to be the United States, if they thought it would benefit them, one iota.



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 10/2/2016 12:49:50 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 5:53:57 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


The Jews have been kicked out or killed out of every country (where they have had a significant population) with the exception of the U.S.

Our helping them establish their own homeland in the way that we did it may have been ill-advised, but they needed a homeland.

I am all for pulling our troops from around the world (with a few exceptions where we might have a legitimate interest) and placing them on our border to truly protect our country (as opposed to international business interests).

Free trade? What a fuckin' farce! One of the main arguments for free trade, early on, was: "Countries that trade together don't fight wars with each other". That's proven to be completely wrong in one way: China hasn't pointed a weapon at us, but they're literally sucking the life blood out of us. Mexico, too.

I used to live in an overwhelmingly Mezo-American neighborhood where most of the men came here illegally, worked off the books (paid no taxes), and lived 8-20 to a house (they slept in shifts) and sent the lion's share of their American dollars back home. That is killing us, also.

Our relationship with Europe has been very good for Europe, but I fail to see what it has done for us (other than cost us a ton of money to be Europe's military force, in most cases).

Quite frankly, I could not possibly care less what Europe would like to see happen here. I think it's about time we start worrying about us, first; not what's good for every other mother-fucker and his simpleton brother especially when those same mother-fuckers would gladly walk over the rubble of what used to be the United States, if they thought it would benefit them, one iota.



Michael


Let's not get all "Life of Brian" about what the Europeans have ever done for the Americans and vice versa.

Lives lost, investments made, interest paid, products bought, criminal suspects deported, military campaigns supported at the cost of civilian deaths at home, tourist pounds/dollars spent, culture paid for and consumed, resolutions supported in the UN, joint academic programmes. No I can't think of anything either.

At the height of the Cold War, we housed American cruise missiles and allowed use of our military facilities, our airstrip and our ships, not so that the US could defend us but because, for right or wrong, we supported your military strategies because we were your allies. The US has used UK bases to launch assaults, repatriate suspects and involved us in extraordinary rendition. Right or wrong (and often wrong) that continues to the present day.

Opting to defend yourself against war with Russia by fighting a war in Europe can be seen both as defending Europe and as making sure that there is never a war on American soil.

And despite what is being said about the US economy by the "scare you all to death" Trump campaign, the US has recovered from the banking crash much better and faster than Europe. There just hasn't been the austerity and loss of family income in the US that there has been in most of Europe, including the UK. Kudos to you guys because that is partly because you took better decisions about your economy.

Europe had its own bank failures and fiscal disasters like Greece, but do you think that the failure of your investment banks and sub prime crisis didn't undermine our economies? Why? Because like it or not, we are interdependent.

You say that "it's time we start worrying about us, first" stuff, and then talk about Europe as if it is some sponging benefit claimant who would rob you as soon as look at you, as if you had been embarked on some extended charitable project in Europe. I would never talk about your proud nation like that, but frankly that opinion just doesn't match the facts.

The US has always pursued its own interests in Europe, including when our people and governments have had serious misgivings. You guys precisely defend your economic interests. I can't blame the US for that. It's what you would expect any sovereign nation to do.

Sure you don't have to care what any European thinks about what happens in the US. That's your prerogative. We can't vote so we don't have a say, but let's be clear, you guys have your nose in our business as much as we have ours in yours. Your politicians make pronouncements about what they would like to see in Europe and how they would like to see people vote. We can moan about it but its a fact of life.

Joined at the hip whether you like it or not. Our success is your success. Just as our failure is your failure.

< Message edited by longwayhome -- 10/2/2016 6:31:51 AM >

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 7:38:38 AM   
bondageerone


Posts: 522
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline 		I could suggest where you should put one of those handgrenades, where all you b/s comes from . xx

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 8:37:55 AM   
blnymph


Posts: 1613
Joined: 11/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

With all the bullshit from people in other countries basically condemning and criticizing the US for every damn thing from guns, to cops to taxes, to basic laws, I find myself agreeing with Trumps isolationist ideas.

[Edited]

Pull out of NATO and the UN and tell Putin if he wants Europe to take it, and if the European countries want us to help stop em, $1 million per soldier per day, with a minimum of one year paid in gold in advance.


I get the frustration but the US is involved in the world because you need to be.

...
Ask the UK, France and Germany to name just a few countries about the costs of intervention, the loss of life at home and abroad and the criticism that comes from it. As a Brit, we are still hated for things we did last year, last decade and even centuries ago, including by many US citizens. Ask the French about isolationism and terrorism. Ask the Germans if not intervening militarily in any major way since the world wars has protected them from world events and hundreds of thousands of refugees.




Since you asked: the days of German non-intervention are over since 1999 (Bosnia).

btw whatever the iD ioT tells anyone about the costs of US troops abroad - Germany (I can't tell for other countries) pays for US troops here.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/geheimer-krieg-deutschland-zahlt-millionen-fuer-us-militaer-1.1820318

The link is not recent but to my knowledge nothing has changed in the meantime.

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 8:54:14 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Kipling wrote a poem about paying for 'protection' many years ago Vincent............check out 'Danegeld'*smile*. It's as significant now as it was when he wrote and as it was in the time that he wrote about.

"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"

Many thanks, Dvr . . .

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 9:02:28 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph


quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

With all the bullshit from people in other countries basically condemning and criticizing the US for every damn thing from guns, to cops to taxes, to basic laws, I find myself agreeing with Trumps isolationist ideas.

[Edited]

Pull out of NATO and the UN and tell Putin if he wants Europe to take it, and if the European countries want us to help stop em, $1 million per soldier per day, with a minimum of one year paid in gold in advance.


I get the frustration but the US is involved in the world because you need to be.

...
Ask the UK, France and Germany to name just a few countries about the costs of intervention, the loss of life at home and abroad and the criticism that comes from it. As a Brit, we are still hated for things we did last year, last decade and even centuries ago, including by many US citizens. Ask the French about isolationism and terrorism. Ask the Germans if not intervening militarily in any major way since the world wars has protected them from world events and hundreds of thousands of refugees.




Since you asked: the days of German non-intervention are over since 1999 (Bosnia).

btw whatever the iD ioT tells anyone about the costs of US troops abroad - Germany (I can't tell for other countries) pays for US troops here.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/geheimer-krieg-deutschland-zahlt-millionen-fuer-us-militaer-1.1820318

The link is not recent but to my knowledge nothing has changed in the meantime.


Thanks.

My bad. I knew fine well about the major German role in the former Yugoslavia. Not sure what part of my brain I was engaging. I was focusing more on the recent refugee crisis and its effect on Germany. Thanks again for reminding me.

I'm not sure about the up to date financial arrangements for US troops in Germany, but I am concerned about the over-simplified picture of give (on the part of the US) and take (on the part of Europe) that some other posters are suggesting.

< Message edited by longwayhome -- 10/2/2016 9:03:38 AM >

(in reply to blnymph)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 11:12:21 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Quite frankly, I could not possibly care less what Europe would like to see happen here. I think it's about time we start worrying about us, first; not what's good for every other mother-fucker and his simpleton brother especially when those same mother-fuckers would gladly walk over the rubble of what used to be the United States, if they thought it would benefit them, one iota.
Michael[/color]
You mean like the way US corporations have been allowed to walk over the rubble of Iraq?

I agree, the Socialist Left are a bunch of useless, rabid, anti-American Marxists who'll be first against the wall when the Islamic revolutionaries gain power but aside from that group of politically naive nutbags, Europe isn't implicitly anti-American.

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 11:20:32 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"...not so that the US could defend us but because, for right or wrong, we supported your military strategies because we were your allies...."

That is a bunch of fucking bullshit. You were afraid of Russia.

T^T

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 11:21:56 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"...not so that the US could defend us but because, for right or wrong, we supported your military strategies because we were your allies...."

That is a bunch of fucking bullshit. You were afraid of Russia.

T^T
Correct. That's the primary reason why the UK is pretty much America's lapdog.


_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: There is one thing I agree with Trump on.... - 10/2/2016 11:43:05 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"...not so that the US could defend us but because, for right or wrong, we supported your military strategies because we were your allies...."

That is a bunch of fucking bullshit. You were afraid of Russia.

T^T


Really? And the US had no fears about Russia?

So the US chased communists all over the world, destabilised regimes, fought proxy wars with third world countries supported by Russia, terrified itself over the Bay of Pigs incident so much that you almost used nuclear weapons and carried out witch hunts against supposed communists at home because the US wasn't deeply concerned about the USSR.

Your President and generals looked at what the Russians did at Stalingrad, the way they fought and the way they died, and it quite correctly affected them deeply. As it did the UK. You did everything you could to avoid fighting the Russians in 1945, quite rightly.

So we are not your friends? We just let the US bomb Libya and Iraq from our airfields because we were scared of Russia. [Not that either attack was necessarily the best course of action.] That logic would work much better if UK were scared of the US.

Should the threat from Putin's Russia concern you? Damn right it should. Do you think the guy is just misunderstood? Do you think he is your friend?

Or do you just think that the US is invulnerable?

< Message edited by longwayhome -- 10/2/2016 11:45:32 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 40
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