RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT

RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 9:50:04 AM)
I would have thought no because I'd be looking at the act, rather than the specific identity. If we say it is rape, it seems to me this could go down a very strange path. Two people hook up in a bar. One tells the other they are 32, but they are really 35. Is it now rape because the person consented to sleeping with a 32 year old, but not a 35 year old? How about, hook up in a bar again. One person says they are single, even though the divorce isn't final yet. Would it be rape because the other person wanted to have sex with the single person, but not the one who is technically still married? Even from the kink angle. Rigger Rick and bottom Bonnie negotiate a rope scene that's going to include sex. The scene is fine and within the parameters of what they agreed upon. Does it matter if his name isn't really Rick and that's just a scene name he goes by? Oddly enough, I go completely a different way when it comes to cases like Bita mentioned. We know a state of sleep alters the identity process, so the person not realizing it isn't the person they would have consented to being touched by is not as clear. I was also behind this thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_4855670/tm.htm as being rape, based on not just the deception regarding gender, but on the premise that the victim had never consented to the foreign object that was used to penetrate her.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 9:55:45 AM)
quote: You like to blame women for a lot of things it appears :-) Actually he blames them for most things.

Awareness -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 10:30:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ohthat1percent I agree but I don't think it's that women are the issue more so men are, in that they don't want to believe the can be raped and that their egos won't allow the reporting and going through the same crap women who go to trial do. You didn't pay attention and you're trivialising male suffering while simultaneously victim-blaming. As an example, men who are raped in war - as is happening in the Congo - not only suffer through the subsequent psychological effects, but they do so alone - because their women subsequently abandon them. And as I pointed out, when the definition of rape is expanded to include "made to penetrate", men report rape at rates comparable to women. quote: You like to blame women for a lot of things it appears :-) And you're making an elementary error in logic by conflating "women" with "feminist". One is a member of gender, the other is an ideological adherent. This is muddy thinking. You've started some thoughtful topics and should be doing better than this.

Awareness -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 10:31:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: You like to blame women for a lot of things it appears :-) Actually he blames them for most things. Well, I hold you responsible for your own stupidity, although I guess we could blame your parents.

LadyPact -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 11:25:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness You didn't pay attention and you're trivialising male suffering while simultaneously victim-blaming. As an example, men who are raped in war - as is happening in the Congo - not only suffer through the subsequent psychological effects, but they do so alone - because their women subsequently abandon them. Do you have a link on this that I could read later? I'm prone to think this would be from a different attitude in other parts of the world. Those being a) a man who is violated being less of a man (false, but still out there in some places) and b) a woman who is violated being "damaged goods" (also false but not entirely unheard of in history). quote: And as I pointed out, when the definition of rape is expanded to include "made to penetrate", men report rape at rates comparable to women. If it's separate, I'd like to see this, too. As we've discussed many times before, it's my beliefs on the reporting, itself. There are some different angles in play when it comes to why women don't report when compared to the reason why men don't report. As far as actually reporting, as in the legal sense, I don't think it's the inclusion of "made to penetrate" is what's making the difference. While I completely agree that "made to penetrate" should be included in the definition of rape, I don't think it's the pivotal key to get men to come forward. The stigma surrounding is has to be lessened or we're just never going to get men to come forward in the numbers they should. That's even still knowing we'll always have a certain percentage of either gender that won't report, due to the problems that we know that we have with the process now.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 12:05:27 PM)
Awareness I worked for the prosecution for many years and rarely did Felony review get any rape claims by men against women. If they were reported it was claims against men. Not sure if you actually read the information I posted, it does state the concept of made to penetrate along with all types of sexual acts - at least in the fed and state of TN. I'm not trivializing anything, I am fully supportive of male rape cases going to court but they really are not reported as you believe and if they are reported the victim refuses to testify. If you want to use logic, feminists women are women. So if you are accusing feminist of a, b, c, then you are blaming women. :-) don't get me wrong those you describe and I don't know anyone here to say they are fully what you describe, drive me nuts as well but feminists have done good things for women. I do believe many time ultra feminists are way to tunnel visioned on blaming men for all the woes women suffer.

crazyml -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 12:49:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness And as I pointed out, when the definition of rape is expanded to include "made to penetrate", men report rape at rates comparable to women. Strictly speaking you didn't "point it out", you made an unsubstantiated claim, it would be good to see the basis for that claim though! In the meantime, I'll provide one from this report http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf This report includes "made to penetrate" figures, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was the ultimate source you used, since it's the source for the quoted figure on Wikipedia. Curiously, however, even when "made to penetrate" are included, the figures are only comparable in the sense that it is possible to compare any number with another. The figures show that over a person's lifetime 18.3% of women experience one of completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration. The same figure for men is 1.4%. That's quite a difference. In fact, it's an order of magnitude. Now, to the other category - which includes made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, the figure for women is 44.6% for women vs 22.2% for men. So... here's one set of figures that seems to indicate that women are considerably more likely to experience rape and or unwanted sexual contact. But, I do acknowledge that this is only once source, so it would be brilliant to see your source so we can figure out where the real figures are likely to be. Thanks in advance.

crazyml -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 12:52:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness The idea that rape is a gendered problem is a particularly egregious piece of misrepresentation by the man-hating feminist lobby. Is this the same man-hating feminist lobby that fought to take the gender bias out of rape laws? See... http://feminist.org/nomoreexcuses/rapeisrape.asp https://www.change.org/p/tell-the-fbi-rape-is-rape http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070956/Womens-rights-advocates-hail-FBIs-new-definition-rape.html

stef -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 2:00:00 PM)
Don't trouble LackOfAwareness with the truth, it's wasted effort.

PeonForHer -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 2:01:56 PM)
quote: If you want to use logic, feminists women are women. So if you are accusing feminist of a, b, c, then you are blaming women. :-) don't get me wrong those you describe and I don't know anyone here to say they are fully what you describe, drive me nuts as well but feminists have done good things for women. I do believe many time ultra feminists are way to tunnel visioned on blaming men for all the woes women suffer. Awareness uses the word 'feminist' in his own, very special, way, ohthat1percent.

PeonForHer -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 3:03:28 PM)
"Being made to penetrate" - I had to look that up - it was niggling somewhat. Apparently it has a variety of meanings. "Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. - -Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female’s vagina or anus. - -Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen." Interesting. The one thing I thought it had to be talking about ... didn't happen.

Awareness -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 3:03:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Is this the same man-hating feminist lobby that fought to take the gender bias out of rape laws? They did no such thing. What they fought for was to expand the definition of sexual assault for women. quote: http://feminist.org/nomoreexcuses/rapeisrape.asp https://www.change.org/p/tell-the-fbi-rape-is-rape http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070956/Womens-rights-advocates-hail-FBIs-new-definition-rape.html Look, you're just a fucking moron. It's pointless trying to debate you when you're unable to even understand the content of the very links you provide. Feminists fought to expand the definition of rape for their own purposes but rape is STILL defined as fundamentally penetrative. In other words, by that definition, WOMEN CANNOT RAPE UNLESS THEY USE AN OBJECT TO DO SO. Don't even bother responding. You're just too thick for this discussion.

Awareness -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 3:10:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ohthat1percent Awareness I worked for the prosecution for many years and rarely did Felony review get any rape claims by men against women. If they were reported it was claims against men. Not sure if you actually read the information I posted, it does state the concept of made to penetrate along with all types of sexual acts - at least in the fed and state of TN. I'm not trivializing anything, I am fully supportive of male rape cases going to court but they really are not reported as you believe and if they are reported the victim refuses to testify. If you actually had experience in this field, you'd understand there's a gulf between CDC figures, actual prosecutions and the results of the national crime victimisation survey. It's incredibly difficult to get a woman arrested for rape, let alone prosecuted, but the crime victimisation surveys are probably the most accurate indication we have. quote: If you want to use logic, feminists women are women. Wrong. Less than a third of women are happy to be identified as feminists and I'd put the white knight population of weak-minded men at around one-third. So feminists are a mixture of men and women in roughly equal proportion. quote: So if you are accusing feminist of a, b, c, then you are blaming women. No. You're wrong. I'm accusing feminists - those who are part of a repellent ideology which less than one third of women believe in. I have no problem with the other 2/3rds of the female population who aren't feminists. Attempting to deflect criticism of feminism by equating it to misogyny is intellectually dishonest. Classic, feminist intellectual dishonesty of course, but intellectually dishonest, nonetheless.

PeonForHer -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 3:12:22 PM)
quote: Don't even bother responding. You're just too thick for this discussion. Everybody is too thick to talk to you, A. How do you manage to get through life? I bet you yearn for the days when you were still living on Krypton.[:D]

Awareness -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 3:13:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Don't even bother responding. You're just too thick for this discussion. Everybody is too thick to talk to you, A. How do you manage to get through life? I bet you yearn for the days when you were still living on Krypton.[:D] Straw man. It's not my problem if you can't construct an argument to save your life. No doubt your inability to do so is one of the prime qualifications for British academia.

PeonForHer -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 3:17:08 PM)
quote: No. You're wrong. I'm accusing feminists - those who are part of a repellent ideology which less than one third of women believe in. I have no problem with the other 2/3rds of the female population who aren't feminists. Attempting to deflect criticism of feminism by equating it to misogyny is intellectually dishonest. Classic, feminist intellectual dishonesty of course, but intellectually dishonest, nonetheless. Horseshit, as always. A feminist is someone who believes in equality of the sexes. We've done this conversation over and over again, A. You do not get to define the term the way you, personally, want to see it. It's all over the net defined the way I and others say it is. It is not defined on the net the way you say it is, except by fruitcake MRA sites that are beloved on this forum only by yourself and respectmen. What people claim to believe in is something else entirely. It can do - and does - depend upon what people think of the word itself. Or, would you like to make the claim that the only people to be described as 'racists' are those who self-identify as racists?

PeonForHer -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 3:19:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Don't even bother responding. You're just too thick for this discussion. Everybody is too thick to talk to you, A. How do you manage to get through life? I bet you yearn for the days when you were still living on Krypton.[:D] Straw man. It's not my problem if you can't construct an argument to save your life. No doubt your inability to do so is one of the prime qualifications for British academia. It wasn't a straw man, it was a plain insult, you dickhead. I can construct great arguments, A - just not ones that will convince gibbering fruitcakes, apparently.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 4:48:50 PM)
quote: Straw man. Nope, I guess we can blame your parents as well, eh?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 5:36:47 PM)
The hooker didn't get paid. That's not rape, though it might be fraud if a legally binding (oral) contract was in place. But considering the local where it happened, and the payment the hooker expected, I doubt there was such a contract, so it's doubt it's fraud either. Tough luck for the hooker.

ohthat1percent -> RE: false identity/non-consensual sex - TRIGGER WARNING - SPOILER ALERT (10/6/2016 5:50:19 PM)
Awareness, I agree, it is difficult to get women arrested for rape much less a trial where a jury actually convicts, especially because men rarely report same or more importantly follow through. I am not saying that male victims have it as well as female victims and I am not saying there isn't a stigma. I am saying that the LAW is there for them. You indicated it wasn't -- it actually is. With the emergence of the LBGT movement and acceptance -- there are a rise in male complaintants but its mostly against males. You have to realize that MALE rape is a very hard case to prove and there is a stigma so you also have issues with a jury. Will it get better, I am sure it will especially with the GTLB movement. As for your feminist comments -- I explained how I perceived your multiple accusations I see you use a lot lol. But in the end, its not that deep for me to fight you on. I think you missed my logic equation --- and here I was thinking my logic professor - -yes there was actually a class named logic lol would have been so proud of me in how I set that up. :-( That all being said -- can you and others stop complaining about each other -- maybe we can get more discussion. Thank you!

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