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Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 10:43:23 PM

juliaoceania

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Ok, I have read several people in the last few days talk about "emotional masochism." As a maoschist I found this term a little off putting to me, and I will tell you why. It is mainly because I believe that most people think that masochism is emotional as well as physical in that we enjoy people hurting our feelings. I do not know how many times I have heard some vanilla person see someone that makes bad choices and puts themselves in chaos and say some stupid ass thing like .. "S/he is a masochist". Followed by a derisive laugh. It is used as a term derision. It has negative connotations.

I cannot change the minds of the world about masochism, I would expect vanillas to be ignorant about it, but in the last few days I have see the concept of emotional masochism come up several times. I thought those that liked to be derided and emotionally made to suffer were into humiliation and degradation. It is almost as if the two are synonomous. Personally I do not think they are. I also was kinda disturbed that the phrase emotional masochism was used in a negative way, the same way that the ol nillas use it as a blanket term.

Perhaps emotional masochism is a correct and valid phrase, and I am way off base (it wouldn't be the first time, I am new to WIITWD) but I still think if it is a real kink it shouldn't be used to denigrate the emotional masochist, or imply they are flawed and need some sort of emotional help because this is how physical masochists have been treated for a very long time.. and seeing I am one, I can tell you I feel more emotionally stable since I was able to accept this aspect of myself then I was denying it... it wasn't easy because society at large doesn't think much of masochists.

Please offer me some feedback about this.. thanks

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Post #: 1

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 11:03:25 PM

SusanofO

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I agree some can use the term derisively (maybe inadvertently, maybe sometimes not)

I consider myself somewhat of an emotional masochist, in that I can enjoy someone making me reach higher and higher to be able reach them emotionally - if that makes sense. But - they have to know me pretty well to be able to pull that off effectively. I also don't enjoy it on a continual, on-going basis as a style of relationship, because I've found it can erode my trust in the other person if done constantly.

I don't equate this with humiliation - emotional masochism is more expansive in it's use and expression, for me and the other person. Humiliation (for me, but I have limited experience) seems to be much more scene specific and involves stirring up very specific kinds of feelings. Emotional masochism in fact, can make kind of a nice prelude to that, or be enjoyed all by itself, just sort of diffusing through the atmosphere in an afternoon or evening.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/22/2006 11:15:25 PM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
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And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 11:13:52 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I would have to have an example to understand.... because that is just way to broad for my small mind

On edit, scenes can last for days.. so as far as an afternoon or a whole day, that to me would be a scene because it isn't a relationship dynamic

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/22/2006 11:14:51 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 11:19:54 PM

SusanofO

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Actually, now that I consider it, maybe it's just another word for having a deeply submissive mind-set, that is sometimes, more slave-like. Because, I know for me, I am not always in this mind-set. There have been times I seem to want to (and can) reach deeper into myself from my "well" and give more and more, regardless of what I am getting back.

Sometimes, though, not getting anything (like spoken comunication) from a Dominant, can just hurt me (and not in a good way), or slightly tick me off instead, and I feel de-motivated.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/22/2006 11:28:27 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 4

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 11:23:12 PM

popeye1250

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Julia, well said.
To vanillas "masocist" in and of itself is a derogatory term.
I think it would be well near impossable to try to explain to them how someone can get enjoyment out of it. So I wouldn't even try.
Now in our society it shouldn't be a term of derision at all.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 5

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 11:43:34 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Can I ask what exactly is painful about this mindset that it would be considered masochistic? To me the term means wanting physical pain and suffering to derive some sort of sexual satisfaction.. and that does not mean orgasm necessarily.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 6

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 11:47:41 PM

juliaoceania

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Well I just looked up this definition and they do include humiliation, but one can be physically humiliated as well as verbally.. here is the definition of masochism..

The counterpart of sadism is masochism, the sexual pleasure or gratification of having pain or suffering inflicted upon the self, often consisting of sexual fantasies or urges for being beaten, humiliated, bound, tortured, or otherwise made to suffer, either as an enhancement to or a substitute for sexual pleasure. The name is derived from the name of the 19th century author Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, known for his novel Venus in Furs that dealt with highly masochistic themes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism

I still think it is not ok to denigrate anyone for their kink, even if they are emotional masochists...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/22/2006 11:50:02 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/22/2006 11:51:03 PM

SusanofO

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I don't think it's okay for anyone to denigrate anyone else's kink either. Ever.

What the term masochism, applied to emotions, would mean (to me) is:
The least little acknowledgement from a Dominant person that I am maybe suffering by not being recognized by them - well it just isn't there. It's missing - they don't aknowledge my emotional contribution (or suffering, if I am doing that) for what it is, at all.

In scene specific terms: They keep asking for more of me, or maybe their demands level out there - but in either case, they don't aknowledge my part in "making things happen" , at all. They don't murmur "good girl", they don't say "nice going" - nothing.
They are focussed on their needs. Period.

I am sure there would be people who will say this is "the way it's supposed to be" all the time, anyway, between a Dominant and a submissive. But - that is not always the case, in my experience. I many scenes I've read about (and a few of my own), the reality is that: There's a slight (or larger) sense of "give and take" at play, with maybe the submissive receiving less, at times, or the Dom, but it's not always "even", in terms of who is getting, or giving, between them (no matter how one wants to define those terms, or who one wants to designate as the necessary "giver" or "taker").

*(Of course, aftercare can be a different story altogether, he. I love petting, touching, sweet words, all of that).

Some people would maybe not enjoy being somewhat ignored in this manner, or made to reach higher and higher to satisfy a Dominant because of the implication that what they did before was somehow just not quite good enough. I can enjoy this (but not all the time).

*Maybe this IS a common thing for submissives to feel and do, and slaves, and the basis for bdsm, now that you mention it. I think it might just be a matter of degree.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/23/2006 12:48:53 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 8

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:10:47 AM

scratchingpost

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As with many words they are often misued and abused. For instance the word fantastic (now meaning something completely different from its origional intent) meant grotesque, faggot meant kindling wood, gay meant happy... Language is seemingly liquid and as such I think that words are held accountable only in the context to which they are used and their merits by the intentions of those who use them.

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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:13:08 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Julia, I noticed the word "Enhancement" in that definition.
That's what it does, it "enhances" sexual pleasure.

(in reply to SusanofO)

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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:26:44 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Susan, I think what you're talking about there is a lack of communication between a Dom and sub or slave.
I think it's the responsibility of a Dom to care for his sub or slave and as well as her safety that also means her happiness (within) the relationship.
I think I made a comment about this in another recent post about the Responsibility that a Dom has. It certainly shouldn't be a one-way type of thing.
Scratchingpost, you're right on about the language thing!

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 11

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:32:53 AM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
.
To vanillas "masocist" in and of itself is a derogatory term.
I think it would be well near impossable to try to explain to them how someone can get enjoyment out of it. So I wouldn't even try.

I've explained masochism to many vanilla folks actually, and once they are given the information most of them understand it quite well; especially those who like to run or lift weights, and understand the endprphin connection.

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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:41:43 AM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Susan, I think what you're talking about there is a lack of communication between a Dom and sub or slave.

Susan was refering to a specific type of scene. One that involves the dom heightening the sub's sense of being used, by treating the sub as though the sub's feelings and needs do not matter.

The sub may be used as a tool solely for the dom's pleasure, or the sub may be ignored all together.

This is often something subs crave, as it heightens their sense of being submissive, and of service. It is also sometimes a form of humiliation.

I believe the point Susan was making was this is a form of emotional masochism on the subs part, and deliberate on the dom's part...not neglect, selfishness, or a lack of communication.

Susan can correct me if I misunderstood her.

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My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:47:23 AM

SusanofO

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Nope, you are right on the money there, Cinful. Thank you.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 14

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:56:22 AM

Vancouver_cinful

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No problem, Susan. Thanks for the insight on this. I haven't had a real clear sense of what emotional masochism might entail in a D/s dynamic, but I get it now.

I've often heard the term used for people who bring trauma and heartache into their lives in order to "suffer" because it gives them a reason to feel sorry for themselves, etc...but didn't get what it meant in BDSM terms.

Thanks to Julia too, for the thread. I hope more replies are forthcoming. Interesting topic!

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Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 12:58:50 AM

SusanofO

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Well thanks. I think I was sort of figuring it out for myself as I wrote about it, actually. Yes, it is a good topic. Thanks julia.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/23/2006 12:59:23 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 16

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 3:28:13 AM

Lordandmaster

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This is a very interesting post, julia, because I'm one of those people who tends to use the term "emotional masochist" pejoratively, and I'd never use the plain term "masochist" pejoratively. I think it just comes from my experience with emotional masochists. They tend to have unhealthy relationships; they seek out bad situations and even go out of their way to sabotage a relationship when it's going good. That doesn't seem like a kink to me. That seems more like someone who has some kind of emotional problem, someone who is never going to be happy until he or she works out what's going on--and also someone who, perhaps inadvertently but nevertheless selfishly, waltzes in and out of other people's lives and causes them anguish and suffering too.

There are plenty of emotionally healthy masochists, and as far as I'm concerned they do not fit into this category at all. They're just people who enjoy pain. (Edited to add, since I left this point out: people who seek out humiliating or degrading situations aren't what I mean by "emotional masochists" either. Some people need humiliation in order to be sexually fulfilled, but otherwise they are perfectly adept at maintaining a relationship.) Maybe the problem is that we need a better term than "emotional masochist." If you have an idea for one, I'd love to hear it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Ok, I have read several people in the last few days talk about "emotional masochism." As a maoschist I found this term a little off putting to me, and I will tell you why. It is mainly because I believe that most people think that masochism is emotional as well as physical in that we enjoy people hurting our feelings. I do not know how many times I have heard some vanilla person see someone that makes bad choices and puts themselves in chaos and say some stupid ass thing like .. "S/he is a masochist". Followed by a derisive laugh. It is used as a term derision. It has negative connotations.

I cannot change the minds of the world about masochism, I would expect vanillas to be ignorant about it, but in the last few days I have see the concept of emotional masochism come up several times. I thought those that liked to be derided and emotionally made to suffer were into humiliation and degradation. It is almost as if the two are synonomous. Personally I do not think they are. I also was kinda disturbed that the phrase emotional masochism was used in a negative way, the same way that the ol nillas use it as a blanket term.

Perhaps emotional masochism is a correct and valid phrase, and I am way off base (it wouldn't be the first time, I am new to WIITWD) but I still think if it is a real kink it shouldn't be used to denigrate the emotional masochist, or imply they are flawed and need some sort of emotional help because this is how physical masochists have been treated for a very long time.. and seeing I am one, I can tell you I feel more emotionally stable since I was able to accept this aspect of myself then I was denying it... it wasn't easy because society at large doesn't think much of masochists.

Please offer me some feedback about this.. thanks

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/23/2006 3:29:59 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 3:40:00 AM

SusanofO

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To me I guess it is maybe about objectification, LaM.
I don't consider myself any more emotionally damaged than the next person, particularly

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 18

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 5:27:30 AM

mistoferin

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Most of those I have encountered in my life who are emotional masochists have been, to a degree, drama queens and attention whores. Now I am not trying to make a blanket generalization, there may indeed be those who don't fit that profile....I just haven't met any.

As LaM said, the ones I have encountered in my life tend to be those who are involved in one bad relationship after another, make bad choices, create drama where there is none by snowballing little things into giant ones, sabotage when things are going good and live their lives in a manner that shows total selfish disregard for those around them. I don't think they get off on the pain caused by the dysfunction...but I do think they get off on the attention they receive from everyone as a result of the dysfunction.

As LaM also said, I think those who enjoy humiliation or degradation in scene are not of the same ilk that I normally think of when the term "emotional masochism" comes up.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 7/23/2006 5:28:06 AM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 7:41:22 AM

BeingChewsie

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quote:

Perhaps emotional masochism is a correct and valid phrase, and I am way off base (it wouldn't be the first time, I am new to WIITWD) but I still think if it is a real kink it shouldn't be used to denigrate the emotional masochist, or imply they are flawed and need some sort of emotional help because this is how physical masochists have been treated for a very long time.. and seeing I am one, I can tell you I feel more emotionally stable since I was able to accept this aspect of myself then I was denying it... it wasn't easy because society at large doesn't think much of masochists.

Thank you. The term emotional masochist fits me perfectly. I'm quite happy that way. I have an owner who satisfies my need in that regard quite well :). I think I'll just stick with my relationship of 6.5 years in which I live with a man I adore vs dumping a few grand on therapy to *fix* something I don't think is broken.

I can give you an example or ten :). My owner travels quite frequently for business and pleasure. I'm not welcome to join him, generally. I'm not his peer or girlfriend and that is it. Let me tell you, that *hurts* me on an emotional level..but it isn't processed as a negative and leaves no lasting damage. It hurts..then feels soooooooo good. It is just so deeply pleasurable. I have this thing for attempting to win the affection of my sadist..it *hurts* me when he remains distant, cold, aloof and uses me while being that way. That hurts me emotionally, but feels sooooo good. I have been known to break down and *beg* for it. It is a deep, deep, satisfaction to be hurt emotionally. He doesn't set out to do that, he won't cater to me. He just needs to be who he is and live his life on his terms. I get those needs met as a by product of him doing that.

There is no drama or trauma in my relationship. My owner would -never- put up with that. He calls me his oasis because I'm so low maintenance. I just get *enjoyment* from emotional pain that I feel by some things he does..it hurts for a few minutes..then I get a rush of pleasure. It is enjoyed in silence with a *sigh* and sometimes a *purr*. I live in peace and serenity with him.

I believe you can be a healthy emotional masochist( I believe I am one) just as easily as you can be a healthy physical masochist. I think unhealthy people exist in either case. I abhor drama, I feel creating drama to get *hurt* is as unhealthy as people who self-injure to get their fix of physical *hurt*.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 20

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