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RE: Hjernevask - 10/22/2016 10:10:39 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I just don't subscribe to your ideologically driven evidence-free claims.


K, I think the point is that *everyone* has ideologically driven evidence-free claims in this context. The chief difference is in whether we understand that and its implications, or not.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/22/2016 10:20:18 AM   
dcnovice


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FR

I watched a bit more of the series, checking out the gay/lesbian episode. As during the first bit I watched, I was struck by how choppy the editing is. Rarely does anyone utter more than a sentence before the video cuts to a reaction shot or another question or another speaker. There hasn't yet been a moment when Eia really engages anyone in conversation. He seems more interested in collecting sound bites that he can mix and match later than in probing anything in depth.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/22/2016 10:42:57 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I just don't subscribe to your ideologically driven evidence-free claims.

K, I think the point is that *everyone* has ideologically driven evidence-free claims in this context. The chief difference is in whether we understand that and its implications, or not.

Well, speaking only for myself, whom I presume to be included in "everyone," I don't see where I've been guilty of promoting an ideologically driven evidence-free position in this thread. But, I'm willing to consider the possibility if you can point out to me where, and how in your opinion I've done so.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/22/2016 11:27:44 AM >

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/22/2016 1:23:54 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I just don't subscribe to your ideologically driven evidence-free claims.

K, I think the point is that *everyone* has ideologically driven evidence-free claims in this context. The chief difference is in whether we understand that and its implications, or not.

Well, speaking only for myself, whom I presume to be included in "everyone," I don't see where I've been guilty of promoting an ideologically driven evidence-free position in this thread. But, I'm willing to consider the possibility if you can point out to me where, and how in your opinion I've done so.

K.




I have no need to do that, K. You and I only have an argument if you claim that you have an evidence-based position that's at the same time devoid of ideology. Are you saying that?


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 10/22/2016 1:27:21 PM >


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/22/2016 3:23:45 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I just don't subscribe to your ideologically driven evidence-free claims.

K, I think the point is that *everyone* has ideologically driven evidence-free claims in this context. The chief difference is in whether we understand that and its implications, or not.

Well, speaking only for myself, whom I presume to be included in "everyone," I don't see where I've been guilty of promoting an ideologically driven evidence-free position in this thread. But, I'm willing to consider the possibility if you can point out to me where, and how in your opinion I've done so.

I have no need to do that, K. You and I only have an argument if you claim that you have an evidence-based position that's at the same time devoid of ideology. Are you saying that?

What I am saying can be reliably found in what my posts actually say, so I'll assume you have no argument with them.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/22/2016 3:49:59 PM >

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/22/2016 4:29:31 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


[

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Bless you for your faith, but male and female brains are different at birth and gendered toy selection results obtain even in non-human primates.

Studies of laboratory animal models -- for which social biases and constructs such as gender are absent-- have revealed significant anatomical differences between the brains of males and females that arise in fetal and early postnatal development, as well as a role for hormones, which differ greatly between the sexes, in the functioning of the adult brain. ~Source

K.



But it is not all primarily biological determinism. Epigenetic methylation can result from social interaction as well. The following quote is taken directly from the source you linked, K:

In humans, an additional canalization factor could be parental, societal, and cultural influences early in life. Gender-specific behaviors may be rewarded, for example, or punished if considered not in line with a child’s sex. While these factors remain difficult to tease apart, it is clear that the brains of males and females diverge as they develop, and it should be self-evident that using only male animals to probe mammalian brain function does not reveal the whole picture.




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RE: Hjernevask - 10/22/2016 9:02:59 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


[

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Bless you for your faith, but male and female brains are different at birth and gendered toy selection results obtain even in non-human primates.

Studies of laboratory animal models -- for which social biases and constructs such as gender are absent-- have revealed significant anatomical differences between the brains of males and females that arise in fetal and early postnatal development, as well as a role for hormones, which differ greatly between the sexes, in the functioning of the adult brain. ~Source

K.



But it is not all primarily biological determinism. Epigenetic methylation can result from social interaction as well. The following quote is taken directly from the source you linked, K:

In humans, an additional canalization factor could be parental, societal, and cultural influences early in life. Gender-specific behaviors may be rewarded, for example, or punished if considered not in line with a child’s sex. While these factors remain difficult to tease apart, it is clear that the brains of males and females diverge as they develop, and it should be self-evident that using only male animals to probe mammalian brain function does not reveal the whole picture.




Thank you for posting that VincentML.

Your post provides evidence that supports my claim that " Every time I have examined a study making claims of this nature (and I have examined hundreds) I have found faults similar to those outlined [in post #15]" (I also provided other evidence to back up that claim in post#15.) One invariably finds these 'studies' possess flaws such as gross methodological errors, qualifications such as the one you posted that qualify claims of biological gender determination so much they become meaningless, rampant sexism, absurd levels of cherry picking the data and so on. In short shoddy and shonky science.

There was a time when I used to take the orthodox (eg medical) approach to this topic seriously. After studying dozens of such books and thousands of papers* purporting to demonstrate or assuming biological gender determinism or more broadly gender itself, I no longer take such approaches seriously. Nowadays I read them much as I would read a comic - strictly for laughs. For a professional in this field, they are so amateurish and silly they can be genuinely funny. In much the same way as Awareness' ugly angry and ill-informed rants on this topic are in their own way, amusing and often quite funny.

* Just taking one journal 'Archives of Sexual Behaviour': It has been published bimonthly since 1971. Usually there are roughly a dozen or more papers in each edition. I read about 40 years worth or 40x6x12 = 2,880 papers in that one journal. While not all of those papers would have a bearing on gender, I studied dozens of such journals as part of my PhD. So I suppose the final total would be many thousands of papers on gender or gender related issues.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/22/2016 9:45:18 PM >


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 5:55:34 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But it is not all primarily biological determinism. Epigenetic methylation can result from social interaction as well. The following quote is taken directly from the source you linked, K:

In humans, an additional canalization factor could be parental, societal, and cultural influences early in life. Gender-specific behaviors may be rewarded, for example, or punished if considered not in line with a child’s sex. While these factors remain difficult to tease apart, it is clear that the brains of males and females diverge as they develop, and it should be self-evident that using only male animals to probe mammalian brain function does not reveal the whole picture.

The operative phrase there is, "in humans." Also worth noting, the rhesus study I linked (on the first page of the thread) did not confine itself exclusively to male animals.

Humans possess a highly evolved ability for symbolic thought, along with methods of communication and a degree of creativity that is unequaled in other primates. As a result, sapiens sapiens have developed myriad widely differing cultures, whereas other primate societies display patterns of behavior that are similar even across separated groups of the same species.

Socialization pressures can only change our biology if they differ from what our biology without them would produce. Thus, what we are seeing in the primate studies is biology at work where "social biases and constructs such as gender are absent."

K.



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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 7:54:47 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Socialization pressures can only change our biology if they differ from what our biology without them would produce. Thus, what we are seeing in the primate studies is biology at work where "social biases and constructs such as gender are absent."

A careful reading of the study shows that is not the case, however. In the rhesus study, Only the males showed a marked preference in number of interactions for the wheeled toys vs. the plush toys while the females showed no significant preference either way.

Whereas with respect to duration of attention, the female rhesus had a longer interaction with plush toys in correlation with social rank.

Then the author of the study blows it up with the following caveat:

There can be little doubt that boys and girls learn that some activities are socially more appropriate for males or for females and this is likely reflected in the sex-stereotyped toys they choose. However, girls are less likely to receive negative information about boys’ toys and activities than are boys about girls’ activities and toys (Kane, 2006). Thus, girls’ toys and activities are often stigmatized for boys, but boys’ toys and activities not as stigmatized for girls (Martin, 1990). One could view such stigmatization as devaluing female-typical toys for boys without comparably devaluing male-typical toys for girls. Such differential devaluation might produce the markedly greater preference difference between toy types seen in boys contrasting with the lack of preference seen in girls. Because we chose toys based on object properties and not on previously established sex-typed categorizations, our wheeled and plush toys are not entirely analogous to the more stereotypical categories used in the human studies or to toys typically marketed as for boys and girls. Our findings suggest that sex differences in toy preferences in humans and nonhuman primates rely to some extent on physical object properties, but that social characteristics likely also influence preference, and some of these may be unique to humans. For example, a toy such as a plastic shopping cart, one of our wheeled toys, might appeal to boys or rhesus monkey males for its physical properties, but the same shopping cart also has symbolic properties related to imaginative play, and in humans may be socially stigmatized for boys. Because the shopping cart relates to a specific human activity, the toy facilitates different activities for humans than for rhesus monkeys. However, our finding that male monkeys show a preference of comparable magnitude to those seen in boys makes a cultural devaluation explanation unlikely.

Unlikely perhaps for rhesus monkeys but a leap of faith it is unlikely for human children.

None of this toy choosing incidentally has anything to do nor does it reflect upon gender self identity which does not conform to the "norm."

In other writings you have championed experiential evidence that favors spiritual "reality" as an alternative to the findings and "limitations" of evidence-based science. But here, with gender identity you insist upon evidence-based science rather than accepting individual experience. Your standards are biased and selective, methinks.



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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 8:10:41 AM   
Real0ne


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social norms are always determined by a bell curve, not some singular hard and fast proof as your requisite construction contends.

Precision 'objectivity' as you demand, while highly desirable is not an absolute requirement to correctly assess and understand the premise.


quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen

I thought this video would fit beautifully in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZtU69eJLdI&index=1&list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd



It does, and I have seen no response from our local 'social scientists' explaining the gender phenomena they pointed out.

Men and women have different physical construction, different hormonal levels, hence different 'leanings', different 'propensities' and hence directions of 'interest' which ultimately serves to create a different 'culture' between the sexes.

Thanks to respectformen's earlier post and thanks to the Lego experiments it appears that feminist zealots ignore the fact that gender differences exist and manifest themselves in the form of focal 'interests', and those differences ironically are in line with the lego experiments that led to developing gender identified interest based toys as well as can be seen by adult choices made later in life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zolPHC562WA&list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd&index=2






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/23/2016 8:13:13 AM >


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 8:34:13 AM   
Real0ne


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Women 'instinctively' pull out a titty to feed and care for an infant, and all that follows. Men do not.

If there were no genetic basis for gender cultural differences I cant wait to hear them.




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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 9:18:04 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Women 'instinctively' pull out a titty to feed and care for an infant, and all that follows. Men do not.

If there were no genetic basis for gender cultural differences I cant wait to hear them.




I know quite a few women who do not 'instinctively' pull out a titty to feed an infant.
For some, that thought is repulsive.
And men don't because they generally don't have the biological equipment to feed infants.
But some do here and here.


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 10:38:08 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

In other writings you have championed experiential evidence that favors spiritual "reality" as an alternative to the findings and "limitations" of evidence-based science. But here, with gender identity you insist upon evidence-based science rather than accepting individual experience. Your standards are biased and selective, methinks.

If people choose on the basis of their personal experience to believe that there is "something greater" in the universe, I am just as willing to accept that for them that's a subjective reality as I am, for example, to accept that for men who believe on the basis of their personal experience that they are a woman in a man's body that for them that too is a subjective reality. Nor have I said anything in this thread that a rational person could construe to suggest otherwise. But I have asked why anyone should be expected (let alone compelled by law) to behave as if any of these subjective realities was objectively true.

K.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 1:30:17 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Women 'instinctively' pull out a titty to feed and care for an infant, and all that follows. Men do not.

If there were no genetic basis for gender cultural differences I cant wait to hear them.




I know quite a few women who do not 'instinctively' pull out a titty to feed an infant.
For some, that thought is repulsive.
And men don't because they generally don't have the biological equipment to feed infants.
But some do here and here.




I didnt think this was about unfit mothers.



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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 2:22:15 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

In other writings you have championed experiential evidence that favors spiritual "reality" as an alternative to the findings and "limitations" of evidence-based science. But here, with gender identity you insist upon evidence-based science rather than accepting individual experience. Your standards are biased and selective, methinks.

If people choose on the basis of their personal experience to believe that there is "something greater" in the universe, I am just as willing to accept that for them that's a subjective reality as I am, for example, to accept that for men who believe on the basis of their personal experience that they are a woman in a man's body that for them that too is a subjective reality. Nor have I said anything in this thread that a rational person could construe to suggest otherwise. But I have asked why anyone should be expected (let alone compelled by law) to behave as if any of these subjective realities was objectively true.

K.


When you offer research as unbiased, evidence-based support for biologically determined human gender identity the topic under discussion is not about compelling you how to act nor about the law. The topic here is what is the source of gender identity and what standard of evidence is necessary. That has been the debate in this thread, and what the OP intended.

The counter positions offered by Tweakabelle have been that (1) scientists are biased by their gender and (2) there have been no experiments that have successfully supported the biological determination of gender in humans. I probably disagree with her first point but I have not seen anyone in this thread successfully challenge either of her positions. What I have seen in reply is scurrilous slander by the OP and a piece of research that does not conclude what you think it did or what the author hoped it would.

Carry on. . . .

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 3:33:23 PM   
Real0ne


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get in line, tweak needs to answer the most obvious objective test first.

as I said above in 71 for everyones convenience:

Women 'instinctively' pull out a titty to feed and care for an infant, and all that follows. Men do not.

If there were no genetic basis for gender cultural differences I cant wait to hear them.


ok Dr tweak I am sure there are several people interested in hearing your response to this.

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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/23/2016 7:24:34 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The counter positions offered by Tweakabelle have been that (1) scientists are biased by their gender and (2) there have been no experiments that have successfully supported the biological determination of gender in humans.

I would prefer a slightly different formulation of point (1) above. I have tried to point out that it is impossible for any human being to be objective about gender. Therefore it is impossible to practice genuine Science when investigating gender (as objectivity is an essential pre-requisite for the practice of Science). This applies to feminists as much as its applies to 'scientists'. Therefore, regardless of the content, the means of production and/or the ideological background/professional standing of the researchers, a theory of biological gender determination cannot be scientific.

Point (2) is correct as stated. I might add that the number of attempts to prove biological gender determination probably runs to many hundreds if not thousands over the years. All have failed dismally to prove the claim.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/23/2016 8:07:04 PM >


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 1:49:42 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The topic here is what is the source of gender identity and what standard of evidence is necessary.intended.

Well silly me! I would have thought that the topic of the thread was the reaction of believers in cultural determination to science-based evidence that conflicts with their views. But of course, since I am regrettably lacking in your mind-reading abilities I can only rely on what he actually said.

What is interesting to me is that when confronted with the science-based findings of the nature-nurture researchers, the big believers in cultural determinism come up looking like religious zealots. Their rebuttal to experiments which conflict with their beliefs is to reassert those beliefs. They don't actually have any science to justify their theories.

K.



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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 1:54:07 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The topic here is what is the source of gender identity and what standard of evidence is necessary.intended.

Well silly me! I would have thought that the topic of the thread was the reaction of believers in cultural determination to science-based evidence that conflicts with their views. But of course, since I am regrettably lacking in your mind-reading abilities I can only rely on what he actually said.

What is interesting to me is that when confronted with the science-based findings of the nature-nurture researchers, the big believers in cultural determinism come up looking like religious zealots. Their rebuttal to experiments which conflict with their beliefs is to reassert those beliefs. They don't actually have any science to justify their theories.

K.





Come on K ... you must know that's like saying, 'Hah! You don't have any ill-founded science to counter *my* ill-founded science. You lose!'


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 2:17:54 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Come on K ... you must know that's like saying, 'Hah! You don't have any ill-founded science to counter *my* ill-founded science. You lose!'

Are you trying to go for a scorched earth policy here? Because to accept that claim would reduce the discussion to nothing more than a battle between two differing ideological priesthoods.

K.

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