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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 8:20:42 AM   
tweakabelle


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Sir you are an utter moron.

Please don't ever bother me with your ridiculous nonsense again. Thanks

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 8:36:47 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Sir you are an utter moron.

Please don't ever bother me with your ridiculous nonsense again. Thanks



playing the indignant card cant save you now.

Cant be bothered with supporting your claims, now theres a strategy!

So since tweak absolutely refuses to offer supporting evidence, does anyone else have any remote idea of the basis for tweaks summary dismissal of the ability to use scientific method to correctly analyse gender determinsim? Outside extremist personal rationalization and failure to understand scientific process that is?



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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 8:50:46 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


[

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Bless you for your faith, but male and female brains are different at birth and gendered toy selection results obtain even in non-human primates.

Studies of laboratory animal models -- for which social biases and constructs such as gender are absent-- have revealed significant anatomical differences between the brains of males and females that arise in fetal and early postnatal development, as well as a role for hormones, which differ greatly between the sexes, in the functioning of the adult brain. ~Source

K.



But it is not all primarily biological determinism. Epigenetic methylation can result from social interaction as well. The following quote is taken directly from the source you linked, K:

In humans, an additional canalization factor could be parental, societal, and cultural influences early in life. Gender-specific behaviors may be rewarded, for example, or punished if considered not in line with a child’s sex. While these factors remain difficult to tease apart, it is clear that the brains of males and females diverge as they develop, and it should be self-evident that using only male animals to probe mammalian brain function does not reveal the whole picture.



Methylation enables or disables gene expression. What you're proposing is that social interaction will somehow influence gene expression which will subsequently alter behaviour. That's a cultural determinist viewpoint by way of biology. Not only is it a long route but the gender theorists are manically against acknowledging the influence of biology in any context, so you're not actually supporting their viewpoint here.



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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 8:56:18 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Thank you for posting that VincentML.

Your post provides evidence that supports my claim that " Every time I have examined a study making claims of this nature (and I have examined hundreds) I have found faults similar to those outlined [in post #15]" (I also provided other evidence to back up that claim in post#15.) One invariably finds these 'studies' possess flaws such as gross methodological errors, qualifications such as the one you posted that qualify claims of biological gender determination so much they become meaningless, rampant sexism, absurd levels of cherry picking the data and so on. In short shoddy and shonky science.
No, it doesn't. Nothing he said supports your claim that everyone else does science badly. Not only are you not a scientist, but your understanding of these fields of study is woefully incomplete. Your competence to judge them is sketchy and best and - and this is the best bit - your evaluation is absolutely devoid of the value-free objectivity you claim is necessary for the practice of science. (More on that little fuckup later).

quote:

There was a time when I used to take the orthodox (eg medical) approach to this topic seriously. After studying dozens of such books and thousands of papers* purporting to demonstrate or assuming biological gender determinism or more broadly gender itself, I no longer take such approaches seriously. Nowadays I read them much as I would read a comic - strictly for laughs. For a professional in this field, they are so amateurish and silly they can be genuinely funny. In much the same way as Awareness' ugly angry and ill-informed rants on this topic are in their own way, amusing and often quite funny.
So basically, after indoctrination and development of your misandry, your ability to evaluate was severely compromised by your own views and your laughable comments on the work of actual scientists are revealed for what they are - the thin-skinned resentment of a creature who achieves nothing while other actual scientists make a contribution to the world.

quote:


* Just taking one journal 'Archives of Sexual Behaviour': It has been published bimonthly since 1971. Usually there are roughly a dozen or more papers in each edition. I read about 40 years worth or 40x6x12 = 2,880 papers in that one journal. While not all of those papers would have a bearing on gender, I studied dozens of such journals as part of my PhD. So I suppose the final total would be many thousands of papers on gender or gender related issues.
Again, this is just an expression of your confirmation bias. You have no inquiring mind, no actual hypothesis to test - you're simply manically opposed to the idea that men and women are different because acknowledging this would destroy the mental constructs you've built as a consequence of your underlying pathology.

Put simply, you're a conspiracy theorist addicted to the idea that men are perpetrators - and you cannot let this go to save your life.


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 9:02:14 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
When you offer research as unbiased, evidence-based support for biologically determined human gender identity the topic under discussion is not about compelling you how to act nor about the law. The topic here is what is the source of gender identity and what standard of evidence is necessary. That has been the debate in this thread, and what the OP intended.
No. It's a comment on the complete lack of science amongst the gender theorists.

quote:

The counter positions offered by Tweakabelle have been that (1) scientists are biased by their gender
Tweakabelle is a moron. That statement reveals that she simply doesn't understand what she's talking about. Possessing a gender has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you can perform objective science on the question of gender. I suspect this is a piece of indoctrination she's been taught, because the statement reveals she doesn't understand how objective science works. I cannot emphasise how telling this is.

quote:


and (2) there have been no experiments that have successfully supported the biological determination of gender in humans.
Well there have, but - and this is a truly astonishing claim - NOBODY has done the science right. The so-called "social scientist" who doesn't actually perform experiments, who doesn't gather empirical evidence, who doesn't attempt to understand objective reality claims she's better at the scientific method than everyone else.

quote:


I probably disagree with her first point but I have not seen anyone in this thread successfully challenge either of her positions. What I have seen in reply is scurrilous slander by the OP and a piece of research that does not conclude what you think it did or what the author hoped it would.

Carry on. . . .
I see. So slander only works one way does it? At least make an EFFORT to be intellectually honest. Christ.


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 9:24:35 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I would prefer a slightly different formulation of point (1) above. I have tried to point out that it is impossible for any human being to be objective about gender. Therefore it is impossible to practice genuine Science when investigating gender (as objectivity is an essential pre-requisite for the practice of Science).
Yes, and this claim shows just how - for want of a better word - fucking stupid you are.

There's an old saying that education is no substitute for intelligence, and instances like this tend to exemplify exactly what that means. The "value free objectivity" you talk about is a particular problem in the so-called "social sciences" because your lines of inquiry diverge sharply from objective reality. An actual scientist can propose a hypothesis, test it against the real world, then validate it by making predictions. Whereas "social scientists" are in danger of constructing pseudo-data based upon their own predilections and biases.

Your claim that nobody can be objective about gender because they possess a gender is an example of your rather poor reasoning faculty. Objective science doesn't require the absence of the attribute being studied. Your claim is akin to saying that it's impossible to conduct experiments regarding - say for example - the laws of motion, because we're all affected by gravity and thus gravity will bias our interpretation of the results. IE: Your claim is fucking nonsense.

To conduct an objective evaluation of the question of gender requires merely that you be unattached to the outcome. A scientist who has no dog in this fight is entirely capable of constructing experiments to answer this question. Even more, he or she will attempt to design protocols designed to limit their own potential unconscious source of biases as much as possible.

Now, having examined the result and discovered a correlation which allows them to construct an hypothesis, they will then attempt to further validate their result by using it to make predictions. The value of a model is its ability to predict the future. If their research around gender allows them to predict behaviour based upon gender, then that's all she wrote.

No doubt, you think it's all coincidence that Norwegian women, despite being the most gender equal in the world, still overwhelmingly cluster around those professions which align with the gender-based behaviour that female babies exhibit at a single day old.

So, you see, your claim that possessing a gender makes it impossible to practice science around this question is a reflection of your own inability to understand scientific principles. I trust this puts to rest any pretense you make be making about your understanding of scientific method. It really is quite painful to watch, although I suppose it does confirm the poor standard of teaching being done in the pseudo-discipline of gender studies.

quote:


Point (2) is correct as stated. I might add that the number of attempts to prove biological gender determination probably runs to many hundreds if not thousands over the years. All have failed dismally to prove the claim.
I laugh at your absurd claim to have debunked thousands of scientific experiments using your own lack of understanding about how science works.


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 9:28:17 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Sir you are an utter moron.

Please don't ever bother me with your ridiculous nonsense again. Thanks
Now that's irony, right there - particularly from the individual who doesn't understand the scientific method.


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 9:47:25 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

So since tweak absolutely refuses to offer supporting evidence, does anyone else have any remote idea of the basis for tweaks summary dismissal of the ability to use scientific method to correctly analyse gender determinsim? Outside extremist personal rationalization and failure to understand scientific process that is?


Oh come on, R0. You must see the fundamental problem. We're absolutely bound up in the thing that we're trying to understand - humans and what we are.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 9:59:42 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

So since tweak absolutely refuses to offer supporting evidence, does anyone else have any remote idea of the basis for tweaks summary dismissal of the ability to use scientific method to correctly analyse gender determinsim? Outside extremist personal rationalization and failure to understand scientific process that is?


Oh come on, R0. You must see the fundamental problem. We're absolutely bound up in the thing that we're trying to understand - humans and what we are.
*facepalm*


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 10:47:23 PM   
tweakabelle


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Awareness(sic) you are aware that no one with a functioning brain takes you seriously anymore ... aren't you?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/24/2016 10:50:24 PM >


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 11:15:29 PM   
Lucylastic


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FR, completely sorta off topic, but related..
This out of Alberta Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medicine-hat-judges-ordered-4-year-old-not-to-wear-girls-clothes-in-public-1.3816829

Medicine Hat judges ordered 4-year-old not to wear girls' clothes in public
3rd judge to rule said child can choose male or female clothing

Susan Smith says she remembers walking out of the court room in Medicine Hat, Alta., last December in shock after a judge ordered that her four-year-old child would not be allowed to wear feminine clothing in public.

It happened in family court during a custody battle. Smith was the primary caregiver. CBC News is not using her real name to protect the identity of the child.

"My first reaction to that was kind of like an out-of-body experience, like this isn't my life, this isn't happening, and then complete fear of how am I going to break it to my kid," says Smith.

Smith's family's story begins a few years ago when the young child, who was born male, first started telling Smith she was a girl. Her child is now five years old.

Smith refers to her child as "they" rather than the less gender-neutral pronouns of "him" or "her."

"And when they're really that young it's really cute ... and I just left it like that."

But over time Smith says her child became more insistent, introducing herself as a girl to others. When Smith would say things like "you're such a good boy," the child would act out in frustration and anger.

'My child was severely unhappy'

Then one day, at the age of four, Smith says her child asked her how old she was when her penis fell off.

"I explained to them the female and male anatomy and that what you get when you're born is what remains your entire life," says Smith.

A few days later, she says her child woke up in the middle of the night to tell Smith she was going to cut off her penis.

"My child was severely unhappy and was prepared to do anything to prove to mom that they were not a boy. It was basically like a ton of bricks, I got hit. It was a major wakeup call."

Smith says she then sought some professional help, started researching gender dysphoria and decided to acknowledge her child's preferred identity.

"Our eyes locked and it was maybe the millionth time they told me they were a girl ... and I promised I was going to do whatever I could to validate and support them and to be that one person they could go to."

She says as soon as she did, the outbursts and the tantrums were replaced with a happy, confident child.

3rd judge ruled child can choose boy or girl clothing

Smith and the child's father are separated and share custody.

Smith says she told the father what had happened and about her decision to support their child. Weeks later he served her with papers seeking primary custody, blaming Smith for the child's gender confusion and anxiety.

When the two went to family court in Medicine Hat in December, 2015, Judge Derek Redman kept Smith as primary caregiver, but in his interim order, said the child would not be permitted to wear clearly female clothes in public, but if desired, could do so in private.

Then in February, the case went before Judge Fred Fisher. In his interim order, he again stated the clothing restriction and granted primary custody to the father. Smith was given limited access.

By this past September, the interim clothing order was revised by a third provincial court judge. Judge Gordon Krinke said, after consulting with a parenting expert, the parents must provide both boy and girl clothing options and the child can then choose from those options.

Court order went against Bill of Rights, advocate says

Angela Reid, with the Trans Equality Society of Alberta, says this unusual court order dictating the type of clothing a child wears goes against Alberta's Bill of Rights.

She says gender identity and gender expression are both protected, and the legislation does not require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or any other medical condition; these rights apply to everyone.

"If it's actually a boy who thinks he's a boy but he wants to wear dresses anyway, that is totally OK, and that should not be prevented by the court," says Reid.

'The fact that we're seeing multiple cases where someone's gender expression is being dictated by the court tells us that perhaps a more visible ruling that it's not OK in our court system would be useful.'
- Angela Reid, Trans Equality Society of Alberta
Reid says this is the third case she's seen like this. However it's the only one involving a child in a custody case. In the other situations, she says it's the parents who aren't being allowed to dress in the clothing of their choice when visiting their children.

"The fact that we're seeing multiple cases where someone's gender expression is being dictated by the court tells us that perhaps a more visible ruling that, that it's not OK in our court system, would be very useful," says Reid.

Smith says she doesn't know if her child is just curious, or is transgender, but she says it doesn't matter to her. She says what does matter is that the courts respect the right of gender expression.

She plans to launch a human rights complaint against the two judges, and continue to fight to regain primary custody.

"I'm not going to hide under a rock and just give up — this is still a big fight."

CBC News reached out to the father's lawyer, but he has declined to comment.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/24/2016 11:23:22 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Sir you are an utter moron.

Please don't ever bother me with your ridiculous nonsense again. Thanks



playing the indignant card cant save you now.

Cant be bothered with supporting your claims, now theres a strategy!

So since tweak absolutely refuses to offer supporting evidence, does anyone else have any remote idea of the basis for tweaks summary dismissal of the ability to use scientific method to correctly analyse gender determinsim? Outside extremist personal rationalization and failure to understand scientific process that is?




You can't use the scientific method on this because you can't possibly provide sufficient controls.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/25/2016 9:00:03 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Sir you are an utter moron.

Please don't ever bother me with your ridiculous nonsense again. Thanks



playing the indignant card cant save you now.

Cant be bothered with supporting your claims, now theres a strategy!

So since tweak absolutely refuses to offer supporting evidence, does anyone else have any remote idea of the basis for tweaks summary dismissal of the ability to use scientific method to correctly analyse gender determinsim? Outside extremist personal rationalization and failure to understand scientific process that is?




You can't use the scientific method on this because you can't possibly provide sufficient controls.


I do not doubt the importance of controls in scientific experiments but they are not always necessary in surveys.

For example . . .

Suppose we (scientist people) take saliva swabs of a YOUUUUUGGGE population of newborns? Then we proceed to a longitudinal study of individual genomes and epigenomes (if that is possible) at various ages, followed by a self-identity reveal by the adults. This would possibly produce a correlation between genetic markers and gender self-identity without bias.

There is already reported evidence of brain scans that reveal a difference in various cortical measurements of self-identified males vs females and that also show that transgendered folks have cortical measurements that are near to the subjective gender identity.

Such a survey might maybe produce significant correlations without controls and with objectivity. Or, there may no significant correlations.

Any pervy scientists who may be reading this and who decide to undertake this study should give credit and any financial remunerations to vML

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/25/2016 9:20:39 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Tis a well known fact, that they do, have done for decades. All that tasty genetic information resides on a supercomputer, and some of my more errant streams of glory on women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qOV8xonfY
probably need the second clip too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmGXeAtWUw

I miss films like that :(

< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 10/25/2016 9:22:22 AM >

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/25/2016 9:28:41 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



Awareness(sic) you are aware that no one with a functioning brain takes you seriously anymore ... aren't you?
I'm aware that you have demonstrated - with crystal clarity - that you do not understand how science is done. I can say with absolute certainty that nobody with a functioning brain takes you seriously. At all.

The fact that I pointed out your complete misunderstanding of how science operates and you were COMPLETELY UNABLE to respond - beyond the usual personal attack - should make it FUCKING OBVIOUS to even the meanest intelligence (and yes, that includes you too Peon) that you are comprehensively full of shit and have no fucking idea what you're talking about, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the practice of science.

This is what happens when you study a field which has ZERO empirical evidence for the batshit-crazy house of cards it's built.


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/25/2016 9:31:24 AM   
Awareness


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The father is right. The mother has been experimenting with her child's gender identity because she's a fucking gender-fluidity loon.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/25/2016 10:26:10 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Tis a well known fact, that they do, have done for decades. All that tasty genetic information resides on a supercomputer, and some of my more errant streams of glory on women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qOV8xonfY
probably need the second clip too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmGXeAtWUw

I miss films like that :(

Thanks. I never saw War Games. I shall have to see if Netflix has it.

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RE: Hjernevask - 10/25/2016 1:11:12 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

You can't use the scientific method on this because you can't possibly provide sufficient controls.


I do not doubt the importance of controls in scientific experiments but they are not always necessary in surveys.

For example . . .

Suppose we (scientist people) take saliva swabs of a YOUUUUUGGGE population of newborns? Then we proceed to a longitudinal study of individual genomes and epigenomes (if that is possible) at various ages, followed by a self-identity reveal by the adults. This would possibly produce a correlation between genetic markers and gender self-identity without bias.

There is already reported evidence of brain scans that reveal a difference in various cortical measurements of self-identified males vs females and that also show that transgendered folks have cortical measurements that are near to the subjective gender identity.

Such a survey might maybe produce significant correlations without controls and with objectivity. Or, there may no significant correlations.

Nice try VincentML.

Assuming that your experiment is possible, and even granting an optimal outcome for your experiment, all that you are claiming it would demonstrate is potentially "significant correlations". This is a long way short of the causal relationship necessary for a theory of biological gender determination to be established.

It's interesting that you introduce evidence of brain scans on transgender people. If gender was biologically determined, the transgender phenomenon wouldn't exist would it? If gender was biologically determined, these people's gender identities would remain consistent with their biological sex, which is the exact opposite of what happens in the cases of many transgender people.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/25/2016 1:15:44 PM >


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/25/2016 5:02:09 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Nice try VincentML.

Assuming that your experiment is possible, and even granting an optimal outcome for your experiment, all that you are claiming it would demonstrate is potentially "significant correlations". This is a long way short of the causal relationship necessary for a theory of biological gender determination to be established.

It's interesting that you introduce evidence of brain scans on transgender people. If gender was biologically determined, the transgender phenomenon wouldn't exist would it? If gender was biologically determined, these people's gender identities would remain consistent with their biological sex, which is the exact opposite of what happens in the cases of many transgender people.


Thank you, Tweak (no snark intended)

First, I do not agree with your assertion in the second paragraph. Genetic determinism does not eliminate non-polar variation. Genetic inheritance is far more complex than that. Witness the difficulty in trying to define what a "species" is in evolution by natural selection. More and more intermediary variations are recognized.

Also, we witness pink flowers as well as red ones and white ones.

Secondly, about the brain scans. I was not championing them as cause and effect. I realize in the case of brain scans we can't tell if the variations in cortical measurements are the cause of gender identity dysphoria or the result. And I did mention that transgendered people tend to have measurements closer to their desired role than their biological apparatus.

I did not propose an experiment.

I was indulging in a thought narrative that would solve the two problems raised by Tamaka and you. Namely the role of controls and objectivity in scientific endeavor regarding the roots of gender identity.

Hell, I am not even championing biological determinism of gender identity. I respect the role early environment plays in character development.

That is why I very deliberately suggested conducting a survey to search out correlations between genetic markers and gender self-identities. No problems with controls or objectivity when merely collecting hard data, regardless of the strength of the correlations.

Both Darwin and Einstein constructed theories from observations (one in nature and one in mathematics) The experiments come after the model is constructed and predictions are made from it.

By the time I am done with the longitudinal survey (I will be really, really old . . . lol!) the ethics and safety of a gene editing technique ( Crispr-Cas9 ) will have been resolved.

At that point we will have collected our genetic markers and we would be able to make predictions to experiment on cause and effect. In the Huxlian utopia (dystopia?) of the future we would proceed to edit sperm and ova to test the model.

As I said, just a thought exercise to resolve the problems suggested above.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/25/2016 5:04:27 PM >


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RE: Hjernevask - 10/26/2016 12:16:06 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Women 'instinctively' pull out a titty to feed and care for an infant, and all that follows. Men do not.


What horse feathers. In the first place, the mother does not 'pull out a titty,' she puts the infant to her nipple. I think you just like saying it that way. Just as you are so fond of saying 'gubmint,' 'gubblemint,' etc. which just like the 'pull out a titty' thing immediately brings a picture to mind of some dunk with a worn John Deere ball cap on, chewing on a straw with all three of his teeth as he says it.

And I have never in my life seen a female 'instinctively' put an infant to her breast or make any motions to that end just because she sees or even holds somebody else's baby.

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