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UllrsIshtar -> RE: Don't Women Want The Same Things As Men? (11/7/2016 5:23:41 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
Right, you keep deliberately taking what Wayward said out of context, Wayward said that the way, THE WAY in which tamaka was describing lifestyle submissives made them sound like doormats, and then went on to say, and here is the important part, that the ones they know would be offended by that.
She didn't say "the way you're describing them they sound like doormats", she said "the way you're describing them they are doormats".
And what tamaka was describing was me.
*shrugs*
quote:
ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
Wayward was not personally calling anyone a doormat though.
You can tell me a million times she didn't call me a doormat, but if tamaka had described people playing guitar, and Wayward5oul had come in and said "You're describing doormats." I'd have said she was calling me a doormat just the same.
Point in fact is that Wayward5oul said: people who do X are doormats.
Plain and simple.
Hell she's gone and backed up that description in this post:
"Because I happen to think that submission itself requires a lot of strength, maybe not in terms of what is traditionally seen as strength, but then these are non-traditional lifestyles. Even when a submissive bends to their dominant's will in everything, they still have life to deal with. Life is difficult enough, but dealing with it and still being submissive, having jobs, taking care of children or other family, all of that requires strength which may or may not be acknowledged. So no, I don't think that doormat applies to her, nor other submissives. My persistent questioning of what she believes is because of that. And you never saw me agree with what she said, because I didn't believe that's the whole of it, anymore than I believe that this description, which you acknowledge fits you, is the whole of you."
She's saying: I don't think tamaka is a doormat, because I don't believe her description of herself. She must be submissive in all these other ways I believe in as well. Same for you Ishtar, you can't possible be just that description. All the while implying: women who ARE just plainly that description are doormats.
Meanwhile doesn't know jack shit about me, or how submission applies to me, and her description of "submissive strength" doesn't apply to me at all (nor tamaka for that matter, from what she described) considering that when I submit, I am specifically looking for a man who will "take over" and "lead me by the nose ring" so that I very specifically don't have to do all that stuff anymore, or worry about it, or give it any thought at all, or show any kind of initiative or leadership or self-guidance in ANY of those areas.
So again, she's saying "Submissive who submit in X way are doormats. You and tamaka are not doormats because you don't just do X, you also do Y at the same time. If you just did X then that would make you a doormat, but you can't be, because you also do Y." when at least as far as I'm concerned (and I'm guessing tamaka as well) Y doesn't apply to me in the least.
quote:
ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
So ok, you happen to relate to what tamaka has said. Fair enough, but the whole point that Wayward was actually trying to make was the same as mine, except that you just happen to have picked a tiny bit out of it to pull a hole because it suits your agenda instead of realising that Wayward is trying to say that it's just not right to call someone weak and pathetic for being exactly what you yourself are.
No, the point -you- were trying to make was: It's not nice of you to say mean shit about other people, because you wouldn't like it if people said mean shit about you, so cut it out.
The point Wayward5oul was trying to make was: You shouldn't say something like that about other people, because nobody is really like that, and just like you are amazingly Y in the way you submit, so too are male submissives amazingly Y in the way they submit... people who aren't Y when they submit are doormats. And because male submissives are Y when they submit, you should't call them doormats.
Those two points are very very different, which is why I'm not harping on you.
The problem with her whole point is exactly her assumption that "all submissives are Y when they submit" AND "submissives who aren't Y when they submit are doormat".
Both of which are claims I take issue with.
And both of which are claims you never made.
quote:
ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
Now what's getting me here Ishtar is that if you've put up with this crap so much then why are you willing to allow tamaka to perpetuate it just because she's spouting it at men? Seriously I'd be expecting you to strap up your boots and bitch slap that crap down.
Why would I bother? Half the board has already done so. I enjoy harping on points others haven't made yet much more than chiming in with a 'me too'. In fact, it's my general policy -on any thread, on any topic- that if I read something that makes me want to say something, and then I read 3 or more posts already making the point I was going to make, I don't post.
I think too many people saying the same thing prevents thread drift, and I love thread drift (cause it often leads to the most interesting discussions) so I deliberately refrain from making posts that might prevent or delay thread drift.
quote:
ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
but you're bringing your past at me like I started something with you, and I didn't,
Nah I didn't. Not at you specifically (nor anybody else specifically either cause I don't keep track of whose called me a doormat in the past, because I don't care).
I made a post with a number of points aimed at you specifically, and a number of points aimed at the board in general.
I'm sorry if I made you feel like I was personally singling you out as a "evil doormat-caller" I didn't intend to do so. The last two paragraphes of that post where basically a FR tacked on to a post in which I was replying to you. They weren't directed at you specifically.
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