Cultural appropriation? (Full Version)

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kiwisub22 -> Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 4:06:00 PM)

I was reading on another post in the general forum when a poster said something about cultural appropriation, and it occurred to me that does cultural appropriation mean that only people of Anglo-Saxon descent should speak English, and only people of French descent should speak French and so on and so forth.

After all ,the most basic expression of a culture is language.
If a culture can claim a particular hair style, then can a culture claim a language -and if not why not?





MrRodgers -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 4:18:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

I was reading on another post in the general forum when a poster said something about cultural appropriation, and it occurred to me that does cultural appropriation mean that only people of Anglo-Saxon descent should speak English, and only people of French descent should speak French and so on and so forth.

After all ,the most basic expression of a culture is language.
If a culture can claim a particular hair style, then can a culture claim a language -and if not why not?




It depends on one's desire to assimilate into that society. We are never slave to a culture.



sovereignsays -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 5:00:10 PM)

Cultural appropriation isn't about simply adopting the style of a culture that isn't your own. In order to be an ace appropriator, you need to discard or ignore the origins and meaning associated with said style.

Barring slang, language cannot be appropriated.



vincentML -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 5:52:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

I was reading on another post in the general forum when a poster said something about cultural appropriation, and it occurred to me that does cultural appropriation mean that only people of Anglo-Saxon descent should speak English, and only people of French descent should speak French and so on and so forth.

After all ,the most basic expression of a culture is language.
If a culture can claim a particular hair style, then can a culture claim a language -and if not why not?


The Wiki article presents a view different from the one you suggest:

Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of another culture.[1] Cultural appropriation is seen by some[2] as controversial, notably when elements of a minority culture are used by members of the cultural majority; this is seen as wrongfully oppressing the minority culture or stripping it of its group identity and intellectual property rights.[3][4][5][6] This view of cultural appropriation is sometimes termed "cultural misappropriation".[3][6] According to critics of the practice, cultural (mis)appropriation differs from acculturation or assimilation in that the "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements in a colonial manner: elements are copied from a minority culture by members of the dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context—sometimes even against the expressed, stated wishes of representatives of the originating culture.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12]

I see a mixed bag within the parameters of the broader American culture. Blacks, Italians, and Spanish have benefited by white American appropriation of some elements of the minority cultures . . music and dance, for example. Appropriation by young whites has contributed to closing the gap between the major group and the minority groups. This has not been true I think for the indigenous peoples. They are terribly tainted by being portrayed in Hollywood films as irredeemable, murderous savages and ignorant, shiftless alcoholics while bits of their culture are employed as mascots and corporate sport symbols.



kiwisub22 -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 5:54:10 PM)

I'm not convinced. When I came to America from New Zealand I came to a country that supposedly spoke the same language.

Believe me when I say there were plenty of times when I had to ask for clarification, because the meanings were so far apart- and not necessarily slang based.

And who gets to definitively say who originated a style? In fashion there seems to be a 30 year cycle where styles come back into fashion. How does someone declare that this is where it started? Can you say that designers are copying old fashions, and when Tim Gunn says something is new and innovative just means we haven't seen it in 40 years instead of 30?



bounty44 -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 6:47:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sovereignsays

Cultural appropriation isn't about simply adopting the style of a culture that isn't your own. In order to be an ace appropriator, you need to discard or ignore the origins and meaning associated with said style.

Barring slang, language cannot be appropriated.


I know this is getting away from the hope/intent of the op, but I don't think I buy all of that.

there is an element of truth in the first part of your post, unfortunately, the whole area of "cultural appropriation" is promulgated by intolerant lefties who see racism and oppression where none exists. the idea of it seems to be akin to "safe spaces", "micro-aggressions" and other whiny creations. in any event, if I were a part of an some group and I felt I was being "culturally appropriated" id view it as an opportunity for sharing information, experiences and friendship.

your second part---I don't see how it follows from your first.

kiwi---I think you asked a great question and its going to be really tough to answer.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 6:58:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

I was reading on another post in the general forum when a poster said something about cultural appropriation, and it occurred to me that does cultural appropriation mean that only people of Anglo-Saxon descent should speak English, and only people of French descent should speak French and so on and so forth.

No. One way to think about it is by looking at old movies, where white people played the roles of Asians, Native Americans and so on. That created a caricature of whole populations. Are you paying homage to another culture, or just aping it?



vincentML -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 7:14:39 PM)

quote:

in any event, if I were a part of an some group and I felt I was being "culturally appropriated" id view it as an opportunity for sharing information, experiences and friendship.

My point exactly. See above.

quote:

the whole area of "cultural appropriation" is promulgated by intolerant lefties who see racism and oppression where none exists. the idea of it seems to be akin to "safe spaces", "micro-aggressions" and other whiny creations.

You paint a fine portrait with a fucking spray gun and you are peeing into the paint with your own right wing biases.



thompsonx -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 7:31:26 PM)

ORIGINAL: bounty44


I know this is getting away from the hope/intent of the op, but I don't think I buy all of that.

there is an element of truth in the first part of your post, unfortunately, the whole area of "cultural appropriation" is promulgated by intolerant lefties who see racism and oppression where none exists. the idea of it seems to be akin to "safe spaces", "micro-aggressions" and other whiny creations. in any event, if I were a part of an some group and I felt I was being "culturally appropriated" id view it as an opportunity for sharing information, experiences and friendship.

In the southwest the cultural appropriators seem to love mexican music, mexican dance, mexican art and mexican booze... it is just mexicans they do not like. Most of the mexicans I know are more than a little offended by that.But you go on with your denigration of all that you don't understand because it makes you feel better and of course it is all the fault of the "lefties"
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.



Edwird -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 8:47:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

I was reading on another post in the general forum when a poster said something about cultural appropriation, and it occurred to me that does cultural appropriation mean that only people of Anglo-Saxon descent should speak English, and only people of French descent should speak French and so on and so forth.

After all ,the most basic expression of a culture is language.
If a culture can claim a particular hair style, then can a culture claim a language -and if not why not?


The Wiki article presents a view different from the one you suggest:

Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of another culture.[1] Cultural appropriation is seen by some[2] as controversial, notably when elements of a minority culture are used by members of the cultural majority; this is seen as wrongfully oppressing the minority culture or stripping it of its group identity and intellectual property rights.[3][4][5][6] This view of cultural appropriation is sometimes termed "cultural misappropriation".[3][6] According to critics of the practice, cultural (mis)appropriation differs from acculturation or assimilation in that the "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements in a colonial manner: elements are copied from a minority culture by members of the dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context—sometimes even against the expressed, stated wishes of representatives of the originating culture.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12]


Blacks, Italians, and Spanish have benefited by white American appropriation of some elements of the minority cultures . . music and dance, for example.



Actually I think the items you speak of are more a matter of "acculturation or assimilation" than simple appropriation, as pointed out in the Wiki article you reference, where I highlighted it above.

And lets not forget food. Regarding the OP, I think it could be argued that food/diet is at least as fundamental to a culture as language, and in any case food selection and preparation is far and away the element most easily 'purloined' by one culture from another.



sovereignsays -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 10:00:38 PM)

What I said was, "style of a culture". Take the bindi for example. Claire from Idaho bought a bag full of sparkly bindis from etsy but, she doesn't know or care what it signifies.




sovereignsays -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 10:32:24 PM)

I sincerely hope you see the irony in your post.

Let's say you were a Black Jamaican and you were raised practicing rastafarianism. Your parents loc'ed your hair at age 4 and since then, you've been mocked/questioned/pawed at by people because of your hair. You rarely see yourself represented in popular culture and when you do, its caricature. Worse, your hairstyle on a white person is celebrated as beautiful and daring.

Now I ask you, would this make you feel like a benevolent educator? In what way does always placing the onus to enlighten on the appropriated foster feelings of "friendship"?

Micro aggressions are very real and safe spaces are very important. Your need to invalidate people's experiences is incredibly sad.



Awareness -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 11:30:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

I was reading on another post in the general forum when a poster said something about cultural appropriation, and it occurred to me that does cultural appropriation mean that only people of Anglo-Saxon descent should speak English, and only people of French descent should speak French and so on and so forth.

After all ,the most basic expression of a culture is language.
If a culture can claim a particular hair style, then can a culture claim a language -and if not why not?



Cultural appropriation is more leftist SJW fucking nonsense created in an effort to dream up a new class of victims who have been allegedly persecuted by straight, white men.

Anyone using it is a fucking charlatan who is comprehensively full of shit.



Awareness -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/28/2016 11:32:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sovereignsays
Micro aggressions are very real
No, they are not. Fuckwit.

quote:

and safe spaces are very important.
No, they are not, you fucking loon. Safe spaces are a construction designed to enable censorship and shut down debate.

quote:

Your need to invalidate people's experiences is incredibly sad.
Your need to behave like an entitled cunt is incredibly sad.



bounty44 -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/29/2016 3:26:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

in any event, if I were a part of an some group and I felt I was being "culturally appropriated" id view it as an opportunity for sharing information, experiences and friendship.

My point exactly. See above.

quote:

the whole area of "cultural appropriation" is promulgated by intolerant lefties who see racism and oppression where none exists. the idea of it seems to be akin to "safe spaces", "micro-aggressions" and other whiny creations.

You paint a fine portrait with a fucking spray gun and you are peeing into the paint with your own right wing biases.


see awareness' post above for an appropriate response to the second part of your post.



bounty44 -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/29/2016 3:31:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sovereignsays

I sincerely hope you see the irony in your post.

Let's say you were a Black Jamaican and you were raised practicing rastafarianism. Your parents loc'ed your hair at age 4 and since then, you've been mocked/questioned/pawed at by people because of your hair. You rarely see yourself represented in popular culture and when you do, its caricature. Worse, your hairstyle on a white person is celebrated as beautiful and daring.

Now I ask you, would this make you feel like a benevolent educator? In what way does always placing the onus to enlighten on the appropriated foster feelings of "friendship"?

Micro aggressions are very real and safe spaces are very important. Your need to invalidate people's experiences is incredibly sad.


what I see are a couple of things, one is, that there is irony in your crying about the validity of people's experiences in the same breath that you condemn mine.

and that you don't seem to really understand the meaning of the word irony.



bounty44 -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/29/2016 4:00:06 AM)

this is all making me think of music---how artists cross-over genres frequently, and how musicians of different cultures become devotees of other cultures' musical styles.

apparently white men aren't allowed to play reggae; Jamaica's being culturally appropriated! (wait, do they play music in Jamaica other than reggae?? cultural appropriation!!)

I hear people who grew up out in the country in the south are complaining about northern city boys listening to country music and wearing cowboy hats!

Pavarotti performed with pop/rock artists---musta been slummin' that day? i'll start looking for the piece in rolling stone that criticizes him for doing so.

the same thing happens with dance (and food) as it does with music.

then there's this peculiar phenomena of black people who hold to conservative values, not to mention to become educated and learn to speak well, "selling out to the white man" and being uncle toms. what is that---cultural misappropriation? cultural abandonment?



PeonForHer -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/29/2016 4:03:38 AM)

quote:

One way to think about it is by looking at old movies, where white people played the roles of Asians, Native Americans and so on.


That last was my way into it, re North America at least. The Native American Headdress, in particular - a revered thing for Native Americans; now turned into a jokey item for fancy dress. (Or for any number of purposes - down to and including a fun bit of attire for a stripper.) No sense of how it was originally made, what each component of it was for and why it was there ....
One of those mass-produced fancy-dress items worn in such a way would look grotesque and appalling to a Native American, no doubt.



thompsonx -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/29/2016 4:04:13 AM)


ORIGINAL: Awareness

Cultural appropriation is more leftist SJW fucking nonsense created in an effort to dream up a new class of victims who have been allegedly persecuted by straight, white men.

Anyone using it is a fucking charlatan who is comprehensively full of shit.

Dismissing a position out of hand is far easier than actually having a rational discussion about it's merits. This is and has been your intellectually dishonest position in most of your posts. That is why we simply note that:
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.



PeonForHer -> RE: Cultural appropriation? (10/29/2016 4:11:43 AM)

quote:


Dismissing a position out of hand is far easier than actually having a rational discussion about it's merits. This is and has been your intellectually dishonest position in most of your posts. That is why we simply note that:
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.


On the other hand, he's always very vehement in what he says - this you can see by the way he says 'fucking' and 'shit' a lot. People who are really vehement just must be right, no?

http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Argument_by_Vehemence.html#.WBSC3SSHMcM



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