RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 10:34:15 AM)

You mean, like getting beaten while peacefully marching? Those kind of 60s civil rights terrorist groups?

Jesus, this country is so fucked up.



Edwird -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 10:58:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Look to the liberal government diluted definition of a terrorist and you will find that all the civil rights groups of the 1960s would be labeled as terrorist organizations.

For me, "terrorist" still means a group that perpetrates violence on the civilian population to force the government to do actions adverse to the majority.


Keep in mind that all the civil rights demonstrations in the 60's were considered to be as trying to "force the government to do actions adverse to the majority" at the time.



Marc2b -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:13:06 PM)

quote:

um no, its a re-orienting of the definitions such that people from both left and right can be understood in new left and right categories.


Yeah I get that part, I'm just not buying it. I consider the Political Compass to be better (not perfect, just better) at charting people's political/economic beliefs than any single axis model.

quote:

as for the second part of your reply to me---I agree with kirata and its clear, at least as far as Christianity goes, you actually know very little about "religion" yet amazingly still feel justified in dismissing it.


I do not dismiss religion. On the contrary I take it very seriously as it has been a force throughout history that has plagued humanity by dividing us and being used to justify wars, slavery, torture and other atrocities not to mention retarding human progress by assailing science.

As for knowing very little about religion . . . well, I don't claim to be a Phd scholar but I know enough and am continually learning more. It has been my increase in knowledge about various religions and religion itself as a concept that has led me to become an atheist. Honesty demanded no less from me.

I don't care what people believe, but I do care when those beliefs are used to justify oppression and ignorance.



Marc2b -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:28:24 PM)

quote:

Reason is a whore who will spread her legs for any premise,


That is - hands down - one of the most asinine statements I have ever read. It is counter factual (reason rejects many premises because . . . wait for it . . . they're unreasonable!) and betrays a mind set that prefers fantasy to reality . . . indeed, actually seems hostile to reality.

quote:

and one of the premises "enlightening" your reason is that your view of reality is superior to everyone else's. Let some air out of it.


Not everybody's, just those who uncritically accept an obviously false view of reality, particularly when they use it as an excuse to oppress others or retard human advancement.



Marc2b -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:33:01 PM)

quote:

There is no cruelty in Christianity.... well except God demanding the brutal torture and death of his son on the cross thing... other than that it's cool.


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you are being sarcastic. In the event that you are not being sarcastic, I would invite you to read the Bible. Not just selected parts but the whole thing from start to finish (okay, you can skip over the long boring lists of "begats" but that's it).



tamaka -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:35:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

There is no cruelty in Christianity.... well except God demanding the brutal torture and death of his son on the cross thing... other than that it's cool.


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you are being sarcastic. In the event that you are not being sarcastic, I would invite you to read the Bible. Not just selected parts but the whole thing from start to finish (okay, you can skip over the long boring lists of "begats" but that's it).


I am referring to the NT only.



Marc2b -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:37:38 PM)

quote:

The Christian God put all that vengeance and bloodshed aside in favour of forgiveness and inclusiveness.


Weren't we lucky that the morally perfect Yahweh reformed himself? Well, except for that burning people forever shit.



Marc2b -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:46:08 PM)

quote:

Sort of like these tolerant, peaceful liberals in Chicago?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/11/14/man-viciously-beaten-chicago-bystanders-scream-he-voted-donald-trump/93787862/

Like these tolerant, peaceful liberals in San Jose?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/06/03/ugly-bloody-scenes-in-san-jose-as-protesters-attack-trump-supporters-outside-rally/?0p19G=c

Like these tolerant, peaceful liberals in Connecticut and New York?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3930834/Trump-supporters-attack-Wilson-Eschevarria-Anthony-Hobdy-arrested-Connecticut-New-York-police-hunt-suspect-choked-subway-passenger.html?0p19G=c

According to your own words above, these suspects are now all fascists and not liberals. According to you, they are not liberals anymore. Neither would any of the Ferguson protesters or BLM marchers who've engaged in destruction of property and/or engaged in violence against people. Care to explain to them that the minute their peaceful protests turn violent and/or destructive that they are not left-wing liberals anymore but fascists and...presumably...right wing? Care to explain that to them?


Well, if any of them join the Collarspace message boards, please point them out to me and I will gladly inform them that their actions belie their claim to be a liberal (if they are actually making such a claim and have not been merely labeled liberals by you or others to further your own political agenda). Will that make you happy? By the way, fascism isn't exclusively right wing, it can be found on the extreme left as well.



tamaka -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:50:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The Christian God put all that vengeance and bloodshed aside in favour of forgiveness and inclusiveness.


Weren't we lucky that the morally perfect Yahweh reformed himself? Well, except for that burning people forever shit.



I think he's bipolar. ; )



Marc2b -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:54:18 PM)

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.



Marc2b -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:56:43 PM)

quote:

I think he's bipolar. ; )


A more reasonable psychological analysis is that he suffers from multiple personalities since he is actually the product of several different author's imaginations.





tamaka -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:56:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.



True enough. I always felt that if the doctrine makes me more moral than God then something is wrong with the religion.



Kirata -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 5:59:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Reason is a whore who will spread her legs for any premise,


That is - hands down - one of the most asinine statements I have ever read. It is counter factual (reason rejects many premises because . . . wait for it . . . they're unreasonable!) and betrays a mind set that prefers fantasy to reality . . . indeed, actually seems hostile to reality.

Reason can only conclude that a premise is false if that follows logically from a premise that is true. Reason simply operates from a premise, it doesn't examine it for validity. That's up to the person employing it, and many people don't. You are a case in point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

and one of the premises "enlightening" your reason is that your view of reality is superior to everyone else's. Let some air out of it.

Not everybody's, just those who uncritically accept an obviously false view of reality, particularly when they use it as an excuse to oppress others or retard human advancement.

I accept your correction. One of the premises "enlightening" your reason is that your view of reality is superior to the view of anyone who doesn't agree with you.

K.




Kirata -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 7:09:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.

Well purely as a matter of theological debate, who says he does? And where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John does Christ teach anyone to fear God for that cause, or for any other cause? The answer is nowhere.

...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~Matthew 10:28

You can figure that one out, right?

K.




Greta75 -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 7:33:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

this is the first time I am ever hearing that "Fulfill" means "terminate". To me, it means, "To continue it's meaning". I mean even "to fulfill the law" means "to make sure the law is followed as it was meant to be followed"

fulfill
    1. to carry out, or bring to realization
    2. to perform or do
    3. to satisfy
    4. to bring to an end; finish or complete
    5. to develop the full potential of
K.


1,2,3,5 are what I understand about the word "fulfill". It is arguable whether to "fulfill the law" means number 4. I don't think it does.



tamaka -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 8:20:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.

Well purely as a matter of theological debate, who says he does? And where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John does Christ teach anyone to fear God for that cause, or for any other cause? The answer is nowhere.

...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~Matthew 10:28

You can figure that one out, right?

K.




Kirata... You just disproved yourself in your own post. 'Him' is God in this verse.



Kirata -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 8:45:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.

Well purely as a matter of theological debate, who says he does? And where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John does Christ teach anyone to fear God for that cause, or for any other cause? The answer is nowhere.

...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~Matthew 10:28

You can figure that one out, right?

Kirata... You just disproved yourself in your own post. 'Him' is God in this verse.

Well that answers the question of who says so. Apparently that's you. On your own authority, or what? How do you know that? Because it doesn't fit. How do you reconcile a God who casts people into Hell with the loving Father of whom Christ taught?

K.



tamaka -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 8:55:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.

Well purely as a matter of theological debate, who says he does? And where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John does Christ teach anyone to fear God for that cause, or for any other cause? The answer is nowhere.

...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~Matthew 10:28

You can figure that one out, right?

Kirata... You just disproved yourself in your own post. 'Him' is God in this verse.

Well that answers the question of who says so. Apparently that's you. On your own authority, or what? How do you know that? Because it doesn't fit. How do you reconcile a God who casts people into Hell with the loving Father of whom Christ taught?

K.



So you are saying that there is something more powerful than God... a force or entity that can over- rule what God wants for us?



tamaka -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 8:57:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.

Well purely as a matter of theological debate, who says he does? And where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John does Christ teach anyone to fear God for that cause, or for any other cause? The answer is nowhere.

...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~Matthew 10:28

You can figure that one out, right?

Kirata... You just disproved yourself in your own post. 'Him' is God in this verse.

Well that answers the question of who says so. Apparently that's you. On your own authority, or what? How do you know that? Because it doesn't fit. How do you reconcile a God who casts people into Hell with the loving Father of whom Christ taught?

K.



So you are saying that there is something more powerful than God... a force or entity that can over- rule what God wants for us? I would think if a loving Father who was all powerful didn't want me in hell, i wouldn't go there. All of the Bible translations say that Jesus is referring to God in this verse.




Kirata -> RE: How Can Trump Unite the Country? (11/16/2016 9:29:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I am referring to the NT only.


Yeah but that still leaves the problem of Hell. A truly merciful and loving god would never do such a thing.

Well purely as a matter of theological debate, who says he does? And where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John does Christ teach anyone to fear God for that cause, or for any other cause? The answer is nowhere.

...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~Matthew 10:28

You can figure that one out, right?

Kirata... You just disproved yourself in your own post. 'Him' is God in this verse.

Well that answers the question of who says so. Apparently that's you. On your own authority, or what? How do you know that? Because it doesn't fit. How do you reconcile a God who casts people into Hell with the loving Father of whom Christ taught?

So you are saying that there is something more powerful than God... a force or entity that can over- rule what God wants for us?

I didn't say "more powerful," nor does that follow. But yes, are you surprised? Can't we all choose differently from what God wants for us? And in making our choices, don't we all often face what could be personified as an Adversary, an Enemy? The claim that Man projects himself onto the Universe is often employed to discount notions of a God or spiritual agents, but if they are projections then they must be within us. Spiritual myths are symbolic. They are meant to convey a truth, not to be believed as truth. We do have an Adversary, an Enemy. In the spiritual myth it is Satan. In Psychology it is the Ego.

K.



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