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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 9:37:44 AM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

The USA is poverty..not something I can argue with and your national debt not bested by any nation on earth. Did i get this one correct - a worthless bankrupt nation?

You have no bargaining power at all...formidable not


Yes... time for a Hail Mary.... or Hail Trump... it seems.

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 12:04:43 PM   
Edwird


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Status: offline 		"Trump Heil!- Sieg Heil!"

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 12:51:19 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

"Trump Heil!- Sieg Heil!"


Hail to the Chief! ; )

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 1:44:59 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: tamaka
ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Every dollar we spend on imports from China is used by them to purchase US debt.

If your statement is true then how does china produce all that stuff for free?
Is it some sort of "kungfu" magic?


I should have said every dollar we spend on the surplus to China is used by them to purchase US debt.

Surplus ????
There is a cost to manufacture the product. There is a cost to ship the product. In the case of private enterprise (yes china has private enterprise) the profit on the product goes to the owners of the production facility. In the case of state owned businesses the profit goes to the state. If they spend all of that profit on buying amerikan debt how do they provide the infrastructured that a state must provide for it's residents?
It would appear that a few classes in economics, accounting and business management would help you understand just how phoquing stuipid your statement is.



(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 2:03:44 PM   
tamaka


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Status: offline 		How does China keep the Yuan weak? By buying US currency and treasury notes on the open market, China keeps demand for the US dollar high. They can afford to buy and hold so much US currency due to their huge trade surplus with America, and they buy US currency roughly equal to this surplus. To keep the influx of dollars from increasing the Chinese money supply, China “sterilizes” the dollar purchases by selling bonds to Chinese investors like commercial banks. By boosting the dollar, still one of the most powerful worldwide currencies, the Yuan looks weak in relation. For the last few years China has maintained the value of their currency at just under 7 Chinese Yuan to $1. Today $1 equals 6.54 Yuan. Something close to 5 Yuan to the dollar might be a better valuation based on other market factors

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 2:13:05 PM   
TallClevDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

The USA is poverty..not something I can argue with and your national debt not bested by any nation on earth. Did i get this one correct - a worthless bankrupt nation?

You have no bargaining power at all...formidable not


Hard to imagine you could pack so much ignorance in so few words. First, the country is not in poverty. The American people hold about 50% of the US national debt, and other government agencies hold about 25%. That leaves about $5T held by foreign countries (primarily $1T to China, England, Japan each and a handful of smaller obligations to other countries) which is balanced by about $2T the US government holds in foreign debt.

As for the US having no bargaining power, again you are ill-informed. Even during the world banking crisis, US debt was still the most sought after debt instrument on the market and we did not need to boost interest rates regardless of Moody's downgrading it from a AAA to AA rating. The reasons are many including a historically resilient and powerful economy and our Constitutional requirement to pay all government debts, which no other country can claim.

I recommend you not spend your time on here and go read books on economics, or at the very least, as Mark Twain would say today, it's better to not type and be thought a fool than to start tapping away and remove all doubt.

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 2:49:29 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: tamaka

How does China keep the Yuan weak? By buying US currency and treasury notes on the open market,

It is somewhat more involved than that.
For example what is the inflation rate in china?
What is the level of political stability in china?
What is the interest rate in china?
What is the level of public debt in china?
What are the trade restrictions between china and amerika?
And of course what is the ballance of trade between amerika and china?

China keeps demand for the US dollar high. They can afford to buy and hold so much US currency due to their huge trade surplus with America, and they buy US currency roughly equal to this surplus.

Cite please



To keep the influx of dollars from increasing the Chinese money supply, China “sterilizes” the dollar purchases by selling bonds to Chinese investors like commercial banks.

How else would they do it....the dollar is not curency in china.


By boosting the dollar, still one of the most powerful worldwide currencies, the Yuan looks weak in relation. For the last few years China has maintained the value of their currency at just under 7 Chinese Yuan to $1. Today $1 equals 6.54 Yuan. Something close to 5 Yuan to the dollar might be a better valuation based on other market factors

Does china tell the federal reserve how to do business? If not where do you get off sugesting that china manipulate their currency to suit your whim or your bank account?

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 5:06:13 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
Yes it is unfair, but this does not affect the USA only but all economies. But other economies seem to be dealing with it in a far more effective way.

But in which consumer goods sectors is US industry competitive on a global scale?


It would take awhile to dig out items within "consumer goods" are competitive with others, but the US has exported just under $200 million the previous two years and likely this year, so somebody must be buying them. A lot of it winds up in Canada, of course, but a good bit also to Germany, the UK, Netherlands, etc, so it's not as though it's all going to bargain hunters.

In any case the employment troubles are across all the broad sectors, not just consumer goods, although capital goods (largest export sector) not faring as badly as others.

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 8:08:43 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Edwird


capital goods (largest export sector) not faring as badly as others.

Amerika has somewhat of a lock on some products. Expensive military hardware like the airplane that doesn't fly and rock drilling bits come to mind. These are high ticket items with a huge profit margin.

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 9:44:30 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

How does China keep the Yuan weak? By buying US currency and treasury notes on the open market, China keeps demand for the US dollar high. They can afford to buy and hold so much US currency due to their huge trade surplus with America, and they buy US currency roughly equal to this surplus. To keep the influx of dollars from increasing the Chinese money supply, China “sterilizes” the dollar purchases by selling bonds to Chinese investors like commercial banks. By boosting the dollar, still one of the most powerful worldwide currencies, the Yuan looks weak in relation. For the last few years China has maintained the value of their currency at just under 7 Chinese Yuan to $1. Today $1 equals 6.54 Yuan. Something close to 5 Yuan to the dollar might be a better valuation based on other market factors


So I guess the US dollar being the most-used reserve currency in the world has nothing to do with its strength or popularity, and it's all because of China. There's also nothing to the $100 billion advantage the dollar's strength gives to the American economy in terms of loans, especially considering the whole recession that never was and a total lack of stimulus packages.

It kind of makes you wonder why the US even allows it. The most powerful nation in the world allowing itself to be attacked like this? Unthinkable! It's almost as if the American government also realizes that there are economic advantages to a weaker yuan, ie: lower prices, stronger American-owned global industries distributing affordable products worldwide, more taxes and donations from said industries, more high-productivity jobs created, higher stock prices and a more stable market overall, etc.

Of course, all of this was only really true 5 years ago when China wasn't more interested in developing a solid middle class.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2015-11/09/content_22409233.htm

The fourth most used currency in the world?? But wouldn't that mean that people are also buying the yuan? They had better find out who is responsible for this wealth-creating disaster and put a stop to it immediately so they can keep living in polluted hellholes and helping Walmart ruin small town communities.

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 9:52:28 PM   
tamaka


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Status: offline 		There is a threshold where an advantage can become a disadvantage... like when one particular country owns 30% of our foreign debt.

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 11:26:30 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
But in which consumer goods sectors is US industry competitive on a global scale?

It would take awhile to dig out items within "consumer goods" are competitive with others, but the US has exported just under $200 million the previous two years and likely this year, so somebody must be buying them. A lot of it winds up in Canada, of course, but a good bit also to Germany, the UK, Netherlands, etc, so it's not as though it's all going to bargain hunters.


Seriously bad error in the bolded, by 1,000X. The figure is actually (just under) $200 trillion. Or a bit less than 10% of total exports. Like most of the larger 'Most Developed Countries', Germany, UK, France etc. capital goods and industrial supplies are the largest portion of exports.

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/22/2016 11:43:53 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

There is a threshold where an advantage can become a disadvantage... like when one particular country owns 30% of our foreign debt.


Well, you'll be happy to know that the majority of debt still belongs to America, and China is currently selling their share to increase the value of the yuan. I don't know why you're so upset-- if they hadn't bought debt the recession would probably have been much worse. Now they're selling it because they know that wealth is more important than jobs that do nothing to improve their society or environment.

If only Americans understood this as well.

Anyways, what are you so afraid of, exactly? Do you think that China is going to cripple the US economy for no reason? Why would they do this when the two economies are so intertwined?

< Message edited by heavyblinker -- 11/22/2016 11:45:55 PM >

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RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/23/2016 12:37:25 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
There is a threshold where an advantage can become a disadvantage... like when one particular country owns 30% of our foreign debt.


Flip of the coin whether we are witnessing wilful ignorance here or just blind stupidity.

I already posted this, you read it, and then you say something idiotic as above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States

On November 7, 2016, debt held by the public was $14.3 trillion or about 76% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[5][6][7][8] Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.4 trillion, giving a combined total gross national debt of $19.8 trillion or about 106% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[7] $6.2 trillion or approximately 45% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were China and Japan at about $1.25 trillion for China and $1.15 trillion for Japan as of May 2016.[9]

Doing the math; China holds 20.2% of foreign held public debt, Japan- 18.6%.

Which means that China holds - 8.7% - of US public debt, Japan- 8.0%.




< Message edited by Edwird -- 11/23/2016 12:42:01 AM >

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/23/2016 1:15:22 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

There is a threshold where an advantage can become a disadvantage... like when one particular country owns 30% of our foreign debt.

Don't know what country you speak of. China owns about $1.7 trillion out of almost $20 trillion of US debt. I.e., less than 10%.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/23/2016 1:21:06 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
There is a threshold where an advantage can become a disadvantage... like when one particular country owns 30% of our foreign debt.


Flip of the coin whether we are witnessing wilful ignorance here or just blind stupidity.

I already posted this, you read it, and then you say something idiotic as above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States

On November 7, 2016, debt held by the public was $14.3 trillion or about 76% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[5][6][7][8] Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.4 trillion, giving a combined total gross national debt of $19.8 trillion or about 106% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[7] $6.2 trillion or approximately 45% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were China and Japan at about $1.25 trillion for China and $1.15 trillion for Japan as of May 2016.[9]

Doing the math; China holds 20.2% of foreign held public debt, Japan- 18.6%.

Which means that China holds - 8.7% - of US public debt, Japan- 8.0%.




I read it at China's holding of $1.7 trillion but it is common knowledge that [it] has been selling some debt to raise Billion$ in US dollars and just as many countries do from time to time to also raise some cash.

What does surprise me a little, is that US debt (10 years notes...a benchmark) are still selling out in no time and at historically low rates. Oh and no matter who may replace Yellen at the fed, (2018) we will not see any increase in rates at least for some time...because of that US govt. borrowing and as [it] will continue to borrow.

Oh and another way China helps to manipulate their currency, is by legally stopping the countrymen at all levels...from converting it into the US dollar or Euro etc.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 11/23/2016 1:25:17 AM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/23/2016 1:46:27 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Seriously bad error in the bolded, by 1,000X. The figure is actually (just under) $200 trillion. Or a bit less than 10% of total exports. Like most of the larger 'Most Developed Countries', Germany, UK, France etc. capital goods and industrial supplies are the largest portion of exports.


Even worse, making the same error again, going the other way wrong by 1,000X.

Third time's the charm; the US exported a bit under (drum roll) .... $200 billion in consumer goods in 2014 and 2015.


< Message edited by Edwird -- 11/23/2016 1:47:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/23/2016 1:49:01 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
There is a threshold where an advantage can become a disadvantage... like when one particular country owns 30% of our foreign debt.


Flip of the coin whether we are witnessing wilful ignorance here or just blind stupidity.

I already posted this, you read it, and then you say something idiotic as above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States

On November 7, 2016, debt held by the public was $14.3 trillion or about 76% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[5][6][7][8] Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.4 trillion, giving a combined total gross national debt of $19.8 trillion or about 106% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[7] $6.2 trillion or approximately 45% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were China and Japan at about $1.25 trillion for China and $1.15 trillion for Japan as of May 2016.[9]

Doing the math; China holds 20.2% of foreign held public debt, Japan- 18.6%.

Which means that China holds - 8.7% - of US public debt, Japan- 8.0%.


Does anyone know if it ever actually hit 30% in the past?
I've heard that it did but it's so hard to get reliable information.

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/23/2016 2:31:39 AM   
Edwird


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Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline 		I can't find it, but I suppose it's possible if their holdings have been something above $1 trillion for some years and far enough back to where the amount of foreign held debt could have made the numbers come out that way. Even if so, that would be pretty stale information.

Here's something more recent:

http://www.wbtv.com/story/33727960/foreign-holdings-of-us-treasury-debt-down-for-3rd-month

The Treasury Department said Wednesday that total foreign holdings dropped 0.7 percent to $6.15 trillion in September, following a 0.8 percent decline in August and a 0.5 percent decline in July.

China, the top foreign holder of Treasury debt, reduced its holdings 2.4 percent to $1.16 trillion in September. It marked the fourth straight month that China has cut back.

----------
Japan, the second largest foreign holder of Treasury debt, reduced its holdings by 0.7 percent in September to $1.14 trillion. But Ireland, No. 3 in the rankings, increased its holdings of Treasury securities by 1.7 percent to $270.9 billion.

China has cut its holdings of U.S. debt in nine of the past 12 months. Those holdings are now 8 percent lower than they were a year ago.


Using the numbers above, that would make China's holdings now 19.2% of foreign debt.

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Trade between the US and China over past 30 years - 11/23/2016 7:00:11 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Yes Edwird, the situation is fluid and US debt is so good (strong) the rates remain very low, it simply doesn't pay much.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 60
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