RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (Full Version)

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gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:16:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

I'm starting to think at least part of the problem was you don't Respect him (capitalised to differentiate from common respect). He's nice, you keep saying, and I suppose something must have appealed to you for you to want to enter a relationship with him, but you did not believe deep down that he was better than you, so you resented it when he acted like he was better or knew better.


I can definitely see why I come across like that, for sure. I respect him *as a person*, 100%, and have done throughout and still do. But I don't give people unusual levels of respect, i.e. extremely high levels of it, unless they do something/act in such a way as to indicate they warrant it. Take for example those I mentioned as the sort of people that I would go to for advice: I have a hell of a lot respect for these people. I respect everyone in my life, but I attribute a *lot* of respect to just a few. I think I have lost some (not all - I still respect him as a person and a human) respect for him since he started acting in this way towards me, as well as for some of the other reasons I have mentioned. And he clearly didn't really have too much respect for me either, which didn't help.

It's not that I needed or desired him to be better than me... But I do find it hard to respect someone who has such an overt need to be better/wiser and tries to force themselves into that role...and consequently forces me into a lesser role.

Perhaps I am bad for that, but yes, that is true.

EDIT: Oops, sorry. I think I need to ask what you mean by the capitalised Respect? Do you mean, by this, that I didn't respect him as my Dom?



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:27:19 PM)

To Alecta:

If you are meaning Respect in terms of respecting him as my Dom - The first half of our dynamic was great. He appealed to me for numerous reasons: he was kind, always made an effort to ensure I felt safe, he was very open about who he was and his perceived failings (a lot of people don't seem very open about this so early), and I felt he had healthy relationships with those around him. In terms of being a Dom, he was a very good Top and I did respect him as my Dom and he had a very distinct air of calm and control about him during our scenes. At that point, I did respect him completely as my Dom, and loved submitting to him in and outside of the bedroom. I loved my tasks, feeling like "his", and so on.

Then, in the latter half, he started talking down to me. Started not listening when I spoke and caused me to repeat myself numerous times on some quite core topics of conversation. Started monopolising conversation to the point that I felt he was always just waiting for his turn to speak. And started telling me how to be more confident, when from my perspective, he had started to seem less confident than he was making himself out to be. And my respect for him as my Dom - not as a person - started to decrease.

But my respect for him - as a Dom - was absolutely there to start off with. :)



Alecta -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:27:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

but you did not believe deep down that he was better than you

I should hope not, that is a very unhealthy basis for any relationship.


And yet, Dizzy, it is the necessary basis for certain relationships. Teacher-student, parent-child, to start off on a few examples.
If you do not think that the instructor of your class is better than you, you would not think that they have anything to teach you and resent them for their efforts.
While a child, if you do not think that your parent was better than you, you would not have subjected to their authority unresentfully.
I think it is unhealthy to start a relationship setting yourself up to resent your partner. Please tell us how you would go about to ensure you do not resent someone who you felt was worse or the same as you trying to correct and guide you.



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:33:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

but you did not believe deep down that he was better than you

I should hope not, that is a very unhealthy basis for any relationship.


And yet, Dizzy, it is the necessary basis for certain relationships. Teacher-student, parent-child, to start off on a few examples.
If you do not think that the instructor of your class is better than you, you would not think that they have anything to teach you and resent them for their efforts.
While a child, if you do not think that your parent was better than you, you would not have subjected to their authority unresentfully.
I think it is unhealthy to start a relationship setting yourself up to resent your partner. Please tell us how you would go about to ensure you do not resent someone who you felt was worse or the same as you trying to correct and guide you.


Perhaps you (Alecta) have a different idea of what "being better than you" means? :) He was better than me in terms of his role as a Dom, but I don't think it is necessary or fair to expect a sub to perceive the Dom/me as better per se. I suppose if you have a dynamic that is 24/7 and in which you desire to have the Dom take over all of your decision-making and take full control, sure. Then you *would* want them to be better than you or at least equally competent. But for a non-TPE exchange, I would not view this as compulsory.

Some subs don't desire/need their Dom/me to be "better" than them. Some Dom/mes don't desire their sub to be "beneath" them. I know that when I finally have a sub, I will not need/require her to be inferior to me - and I certainly wouldn't demand it from her either.



Alecta -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:34:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gnathic
Do you mean, by this, that I didn't respect him as my Dom?


No, I meant purely looking up to him-the-person, the way you respect someone you consider an inspiration or leader in your field. Not to the extent of idolisation, but in that general direction.

I think of "respecting someone as a Dom/sub" to mean being respectful of their choices, needs and skills to be a Dom or sub.

quote:

but I don't think it is necessary or fair to expect a sub to perceive the Dom/me as better per se


"per se"? No, of course not. It actually depends much more on what exactly you mean when you say Dom or sub or D/s (the "sub/normal" mix we talked about earlier!)

There is no "right way", but there is "the wrong way to get what you want".

If what you (generic) want is a relationship where you are equal except when the lights go off and he throws you around in bed, all you need is to feel that he's able to throw you around in bed and excite you sexually. But, if what you want 1. has any level of power exchange outside of a strictly kink play context, and 2. not to feel humiliated, denigrated, subjugated, or be "broken in" etc, then you need to pursue your connection with someone that you believe is better than you, so that you do not immediately hold his criticisms of you against him. There has to be a reason to inspire you to defer to him, yes? That's what I mean by "being better than".



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:40:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

quote:

ORIGINAL: gnathic
Do you mean, by this, that I didn't respect him as my Dom?


1. No, I meant purely looking up to him-the-person, the way you respect someone you consider an inspiration or leader in your field. Not to the extent of idolisation, but in that general direction.

2I think of "respecting someone as a Dom/sub" to mean being respectful of their choices, needs and skills to be a Dom or sub.


Ah, gotcha.
You do give two - quite different - criteria for this though:
1. No, I did not look up to him as a person. I viewed us both, ultimately, as equals. That I was his sub, and he was my Dom, and that I was allowing him to have a certain, negotiated amount of control over me; bedroom and some non-bedroom. Sure, he knows some things I don't. But I probably know some things he doesn't either.
2. I 100% respected him - during the first half - as my Dom. I respected his choices, needs and skills. I thought highly of him for these. I think the problem in our case was that he didn't respect or acknowledge my own.



Alecta -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:47:03 PM)

Well, yes, these are two different criteria.

1 was to clarify what I meant by Respect.

2 was to add what I consider the idea of "respecting as Dom" means and why that was self-evidently not what I meant.



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 4:51:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

Well, yes, these are two different criteria.

1 was to clarify what I meant by Respect.

2 was to add what I consider the idea of "respecting as Dom" means and why that was self-evidently not what I meant.


Oh, sorry. My bad, I think I read that too fast and thought by point 2 that you were meaning respecting a Dom, rather than respect in the mutualistic sense.



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 5:00:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

quote:

ORIGINAL: gnathic
Do you mean, by this, that I didn't respect him as my Dom?


No, I meant purely looking up to him-the-person, the way you respect someone you consider an inspiration or leader in your field. Not to the extent of idolisation, but in that general direction.

I think of "respecting someone as a Dom/sub" to mean being respectful of their choices, needs and skills to be a Dom or sub.

quote:

but I don't think it is necessary or fair to expect a sub to perceive the Dom/me as better per se


"per se"? No, of course not. It actually depends much more on what exactly you mean when you say Dom or sub or D/s (the "sub/normal" mix we talked about earlier!)

There is no "right way", there is only "the right way to get what you want".

If what you (generic) want is a relationship where you are equal except when the lights go off and he throws you around in bed, all you need is to feel that he's able to throw you around in bed and excite you sexually. But, if what you want 1. has any level of power exchange outside of a strictly kink play context, and 2. not to feel humiliated, denigrated, subjugated, or be "broken in" etc, then you need to pursue your connection with someone that you believe is better than you, so that you do not immediately hold his criticisms of you against him. There has to be a reason to inspire you to defer to him, yes? That's what I mean by "being better than".


Ah, I see.

Agreed.

No, no - not at all! I don't want purely bedroom stuff. As I said earlier:
quote:

The first half of our dynamic was great. He appealed to me for numerous reasons: he was kind, always made an effort to ensure I felt safe, he was very open about who he was and his perceived failings (a lot of people don't seem very open about this so early), and I felt he had healthy relationships with those around him. In terms of being a Dom, he was a very good Top and I did respect him as my Dom and he had a very distinct air of calm and control about him during our scenes. At that point, I did respect him completely as my Dom, and loved submitting to him in and outside of the bedroom. I loved my tasks, feeling like "his", and so on.

Then, in the latter half, he started talking down to me. Started not listening when I spoke and caused me to repeat myself numerous times on some quite core topics of conversation. Started monopolising conversation to the point that I felt he was always just waiting for his turn to speak. And started telling me how to be more confident, when from my perspective, he had started to seem less confident than he was making himself out to be. And my respect for him as my Dom - not as a person - started to decrease.

= The problems only started when he began speaking down to me and putting me in an inferior position that was neither negotiated nor consented to. All the time that he was being a Dom - in and out of the bedroom, as he had numerous controls over me when we weren't together and when we weren't in a scene - but not breaching the negotiation, it was great. I had nightly instructions for when I wasn't with him, punishments to complete, rules, tasks, and so on. This wasn't bedroom stuff. I didn't believe he was better than me back then, but I most certainly respected him as a person and my Dom at that point.

Clearly, for you, viewing your Dom/me as better than the sub is integral to your dynamic. Cool :) But it isn't - and doesn't have to be - for myself or others. Such a way works for you, and such a way worked for me all the time that he respected my limits. Both work... until someone does something that hasn't been negotiated -> this is the real issue.

EDIT: Also, no, I don't personally need to feel that the Dom is "better" than me to avoid feelings of humiliation etc at this kind of play. Play doesn't leave me feeling humiliated, but instead makes me feel empowered. And I desired to defer to him because of the reasons I have mentioned... It is not because I felt he was better than me. It's because I liked who he was, found him exciting, felt safe with him, was attracted to him, and found it exciting to do so, and knew I'd respect him as my Dom. It absolutely wasn't because I thought he was "better" than me. We've simply got different opinions on this, but as we've already said, there's no "right" way.



Alecta -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 5:58:50 PM)

quote:


I don't personally need to feel that the Dom is "better" than me to avoid feelings of humiliation etc at this kind of play. Play doesn't leave me feeling humiliated, but instead makes me feel empowered. And I desired to defer to him because of the reasons I have mentioned... It is not because I felt he was better than me. It's because I liked who he was, found him exciting, felt safe with him, was attracted to him, and found it exciting to do so, and knew I'd respect him as my Dom. It absolutely wasn't because I thought he was "better" than me.


I see the purpose of forum conversation to be group examination, looking and proding at a thing from different angles, not conversion.

I don't think you need to think they're better to have a successful play relationship, but play (tasks, punishments, play scenes etc; only Dominating "sub you" and not "normal you") isn't the power exchange I was referring to. I have no doubt that you respected him as a fellow human being and as a Dom, or it would be rather strange for you to even be involved with him. As I see power exchanges, the sub accepts the Dom's authority over "sub them" and "normal them", while the different levels of the exchange indicate the scope of how much "normal them" should be pushed. So by extension, the distinction has to be made between what is "submitting" ("sub you" agreeing to the rules, to bottoming, to the punishments) and "deferring" ("normal you" letting him make decisions for you against your own judgement).

It's abundantly clear that he thought you were moving in the direction of a power exchange whereas that wasn't your intention, and there should be no blame there; it's not a situation where it was explicitly put forth that this was not going to happen and he pushed you to it anyway.

I suppose what I'm saying here is "overstepping into something that has not been negotiated" (ie an area that had not been previously discussed) is not the same as "overstepping something that has been already denied in negotiations" (an area that has already been stated as a limit), and that a person cannot be blamed for the former, only the latter.



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 6:13:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

quote:


I don't personally need to feel that the Dom is "better" than me to avoid feelings of humiliation etc at this kind of play. Play doesn't leave me feeling humiliated, but instead makes me feel empowered. And I desired to defer to him because of the reasons I have mentioned... It is not because I felt he was better than me. It's because I liked who he was, found him exciting, felt safe with him, was attracted to him, and found it exciting to do so, and knew I'd respect him as my Dom. It absolutely wasn't because I thought he was "better" than me.


I see the purpose of forum conversation to be group examination, looking and proding at a thing from different angles, not conversion.

I don't think you need to think they're better to have a successful play relationship, but play (tasks, punishments, play scenes etc; only Dominating "sub you" and not "normal you") isn't the power exchange I was referring to. I have no doubt that you respected him as a fellow human being and as a Dom, or it would be rather strange for you to even be involved with him. As I see power exchanges, the sub accepts the Dom's authority over "sub them" and "normal them", while the different levels of the exchange indicate the scope of how much "normal them" should be pushed. So by extension, the distinction has to be made between what is "submitting" ("sub you" agreeing to the rules, to bottoming, to the punishments) and "deferring" ("normal you" letting him make decisions for you against your own judgement).

It's abundantly clear that he thought you were moving in the direction of a power exchange whereas that wasn't your intention, and there should be no blame there; it's not a situation where it was explicitly put forth that this was not going to happen and he pushed you to it anyway.

I suppose what I'm saying here is "overstepping into something that has not been negotiated" (ie an area that had not been previously discussed) is not the same as "overstepping something that has been already denied in negotiations" (an area that has already been stated as a limit), and that a person cannot be blamed for the former, only the latter.


Me too :)

Yeah, I would agree with that.

I'm not so sure that I think he believed us to be moving towards a TPE. My reason for this is we did a hell of a lot of talking about where we wanted our exchange to go. He and I were both open about not wanting to have a Master/Slave relationship and not wanting to to develop along those lines. Furthermore, we also spoke extensively on what kind of play (physical and psychological) we wanted to enforce. He had some experience in being a Dom, and this combined with the fact that he was very open with me about what he wanted from our dynamic, leads me to the conclusion that he didn't have ideas for where we were heading... He wasn't seizing more control than he had taken before, nor was his dynamic with me changing in any way except in the ones I have mentioned. For a TPE, I would have thought that he'd be, by definition, taking more control.

I do agree that this isn't a situation where either party needs to be apportioned blame though. I think this was a misunderstanding. I think he would probably benefit from being open about wanting to take the "wise, guiding Dom" next time, and likewise I think I need to ensure that my future Dom/me does not take this role.

Regarding being "pushed into it" though, I do think that this is what he was doing. I twice told him that he was making me feel like he I was inferior to him as a person and that I didn't like him talking to me in this way, and on both occasions, he was apologetic but reverted to his behaviour later. That isn't a consensual exchange going on.

As for the last paragraph, I agree that there is a difference. But then I also think that - when it comes to kink - it is important to negotiate new things you are going to introduce into the dynamic. For example, I wouldn't have expected him to suddenly do a different form of impact play or erotic asphyxiation or knife play or such like without having broached the idea with me first. Perhaps you are of a different opinion, but I don't view psychological domination techniques as that much different - in theory - than physical ones. I think if you want to introduce a new way of emphasising a power difference, you should probably mention it first to the sub. Or at least, that was very much how we operated. In other instances that he had new ideas, he checked it with me first before incorporating it into our dynamic.



Alecta -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 7:22:06 PM)

The thing about relationships is that they are fluid. Expectations and perceptions change, emotions creep up on you, worse, a lot of times neither party realise it. One day you're hanging out with your FWB having the occasional great sex and no strings attached, suddenly the next day you wake up next to them and think "holy shit, we've been married 10 years and neither of us realised it!" A emotional relationship in motion has the tendency to get away from us, and that's life.

In theory we think "oh yea, we're going to have a serious talk about going steady and moving in etc before doing it", but in reality, there's as good a chance you'll accidentally end up doing it without noticing, and without the conversation on account of not having noticed it was happening. Theoretically we should be negotiating all changes being introduced into our relationships, realistically, we also have to understand and accept that sometimes changes slip in "unnegotiated", "unconsciously". The important thing is how the matter is dealt with once the parties become aware of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "techniques". A ritual type process like having to ask a specific way every time you go to the bathroom? or the broader way of how you relate to each other or do certain things?

It is more likely he did not make the conscious decision to talk down to you and it just happened without his realising as he settled into the relationship. This sort of occurrence is common in all kinds of relationships and not necessarily indicative of deliberate intention. The key to resolving these types of conflict is recognising that it's happening (owning up to it, understanding it was not malicious, and understanding that it's a subconscious habit, and that that means unless conscious effort is made, it will likely happen again), and having a plan to correct it, some process that the two of you follow in order to catch each offence and deal with them swiftly, on the spot, in context, until it is eradicated. You can't expect to bring it up and have it magically never happen again no matter if the offender was a Dom or sub or your vanilla partner. Unconscious things happen unconsciously.

Of course it's another matter if he then decides "you know what, I like it and I'm going to keep doing it no matter what you think".



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/3/2016 7:40:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

The thing about relationships is that they are fluid. Expectations and perceptions change, emotions creep up on you, worse, a lot of times neither party realise it. One day you're hanging out with your FWB having the occasional great sex and no strings attached, suddenly the next day you wake up next to them and think "holy shit, we've been married 10 years and neither of us realised it!" A emotional relationship in motion has the tendency to get away from us, and that's life.

In theory we think "oh yea, we're going to have a serious talk about going steady and moving in etc before doing it", but in reality, there's as good a chance you'll accidentally end up doing it without noticing, and without the conversation on account of not having noticed it was happening. Theoretically we should be negotiating all changes being introduced into our relationships, realistically, we also have to understand and accept that sometimes changes slip in "unnegotiated", "unconsciously". The important thing is how the matter is dealt with once the parties become aware of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "techniques". A ritual type process like having to ask a specific way every time you go to the bathroom? or the broader way of how you relate to each other or do certain things?

It is more likely he did not make the conscious decision to talk down to you and it just happened without his realising as he settled into the relationship. This sort of occurrence is common in all kinds of relationships and not necessarily indicative of deliberate intention. The key to resolving these types of conflict is recognising that it's happening (owning up to it, understanding it was not malicious, and understanding that it's a subconscious habit, and that that means unless conscious effort is made, it will likely happen again), and having a plan to correct it, some process that the two of you follow in order to catch each offence and deal with them swiftly, on the spot, in context, until it is eradicated. You can't expect to bring it up and have it magically never happen again no matter if the offender was a Dom or sub or your vanilla partner. Unconscious things happen unconsciously.

Of course it's another matter if he then decides "you know what, I like it and I'm going to keep doing it no matter what you think".


I agree with your general point about the dynamic naturally evolving. I suppose I would disagree though that speaking down to someone is too small a deal to be noticed - and certainly not too small a mistake to fail to correct after it has been pointed out. Slowly spending more time together, slowly building someone's pain thresholds, and other such examples are slow and examples of a normal, transitioning dynamic. Not speaking down to your sub, and continuing to do so even when she directly tells you she doesn't like it and to stop doing it. And given that we specifically negotiated that TPE/Master/Slave would not be part of our dynamic (yes, he may have changed his mind. But I hadn't, and if he wanted it to happen, then yes, I do think a conversation needs to take place, as it is not a consensual dynamic), then i do think it is a big deal.

By 'techniques' I was meaning ways of implementing power, so in the context I was referring to in terms of psychological power, I was meaning enforcing tactics that would make me feel inferior, such as by talking down to me and trying to take the guiding role. So yes, in the broader sense of how we relate to each other.

That's what I think too. I think he just got comfortable and stopped making an effort to ensure that I was enjoying interacting with him on a personal level. Regarding your opinion that I should not have expected him to stop doing it just because I asked because it may have been a subconscious habit, I do disagree with that. I think that if someone expresses to you that you are making them feel you perceive them as inferior, that this is a big no-no and one that you simply make sure you don't do again. He certainly managed to refrain from it up until then. I also don't understand, personally, why a person would feel so ok with talking to someone like that. I would feel awful if I ever made someone feel like that or got accused of such a thing (whether as a sub or Domme - as I identify, generally, as a Switch). It's a crap way of treating someone. To be fair though, I wouldn't actually want to be with someone that found it hard to talk to me as an equal, so I suppose in my case, it wouldn't matter whether or not he was genuinely trying to stop. I do need my partner to have some level of respect for me, and to see me as more than just a one-dimensional sub, but as a capable and reasonably intelligent woman, too. I don't personally understand why it would be difficult to refrain from such behaviour unless you truly believed your sub to be lacking cognitively, especially if it is subconscious. This isn't the sort of person I'd want a relationship with or even to play with, personally.

I need mutual respect in my relationships, whatever the kind of relationship.



NookieNotes -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 6:03:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gnathic
1. No, I did not look up to him as a person. I viewed us both, ultimately, as equals. That I was his sub, and he was my Dom, and that I was allowing him to have a certain, negotiated amount of control over me; bedroom and some non-bedroom. Sure, he knows some things I don't. But I probably know some things he doesn't either.
2. I 100% respected him - during the first half - as my Dom. I respected his choices, needs and skills. I thought highly of him for these. I think the problem in our case was that he didn't respect or acknowledge my own.


I wanted to touch on this, even though you have gone deeper with it in later discussion.

My dynamic is such that I choose submissives who are my equals or better. EXCEPT in one area: leading the relationship. In that area, I earn my place as a leader. That is critically important to me.

In all other others, I will work with my subs to better themselves (as they desire) to to support them and cheer them on (as they need and want). I actually prefer submissives I can learn from and look up to as well.

It's more exciting for me to own someone who has thousands of opportunities and options than to own someone who has none. I make that clear, and I cherish their amazingness.



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 7:40:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: gnathic
1. No, I did not look up to him as a person. I viewed us both, ultimately, as equals. That I was his sub, and he was my Dom, and that I was allowing him to have a certain, negotiated amount of control over me; bedroom and some non-bedroom. Sure, he knows some things I don't. But I probably know some things he doesn't either.
2. I 100% respected him - during the first half - as my Dom. I respected his choices, needs and skills. I thought highly of him for these. I think the problem in our case was that he didn't respect or acknowledge my own.


I wanted to touch on this, even though you have gone deeper with it in later discussion.

My dynamic is such that I choose submissives who are my equals or better. EXCEPT in one area: leading the relationship. In that area, I earn my place as a leader. That is critically important to me.

In all other others, I will work with my subs to better themselves (as they desire) to to support them and cheer them on (as they need and want). I actually prefer submissives I can learn from and look up to as well.

It's more exciting for me to own someone who has thousands of opportunities and options than to own someone who has none. I make that clear, and I cherish their amazingness.


That's interesting :) Have you always had that particular preference or did you form it over time?

I would imagine that I would go for a sub along those same lines (I only found out about FL a handful of months ago, so I'm still learning before I actually start looking at finding a sub). I just wouldn't feel like their submission to me would be something to feel enthralled by if they were, e.g. unintelligent, or required me to "teach" them basic things. But I suppose, since my experience with my Dom, I very much formed the view that I would never be the kind of Domme that my Dom was to me.

Also, I personally can't understand the appeal or logic in having someone else guide you. To illustrate with the example of my Dom telling me how to be more confident... Confidence just isn't acquired by having someone spoon-feed you information. Certain skills in life often come from just putting yourself in novel situations and simply learning to adapt and reflect on them. They don't come from someone talking at you.

And as you said regarding enjoying learning from a sub, I can relate to this too. I personally think you can learn something from most people, and to close yourself off from that with a sub is not only a) disrespectful towards the other person, but also b) limiting to yourself. My Dom and I had gone completely different roads in our lives and had very different circumstances and outlooks. I don't believe that just because I was his sub (and a younger one) that he had absolutely nothing at all to learn from me. I personally view such a position as quite irrational, and revolves around satiating someone's own ego. The sub almost becomes a hollow echo-chamber for the Don's own self-validation. Each to their own and everything, but for me personally, I just don't understand how that encourages a sub to respect their Dom. With my Dom personally, I actually viewed him as quite insecure and irrational for doing this, and wondered if he was over-compensating for something.

I personally don't understand why someone who genuinely feels that they are smart and wise would need to try to provoke reassurance from someone else to validate this view of themselves. An exaggerated example of this is the Narcissistic PD... apparently people with NPD walk a fine line between extreme confidence and extremely low self-esteem, hence their need for others to validate them as amazing people. If you genuinely think you are smart/wise, why would you need to chase/force external validation for this? People who are genuinely smart/wise naturally receive respect, and are shown it by people seeking them out for information/advice. They don't need to force it.



DesFIP -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 8:48:32 AM)

I respect my mechanic when it comes to understanding cars. That doesn't mean that I think he is better than me as a human being.

Viewing some people based on nothing more than religion, skin color, picking a label from a drop down menu as inherently better than others inevitably brings us to the fascist/alt-right actions that are now permeating so many countries.



gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 9:02:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I respect my mechanic when it comes to understanding cars. That doesn't mean that I think he is better than me as a human being.

Viewing some people based on nothing more than religion, skin color, picking a label from a drop down menu as inherently better than others inevitably brings us to the fascist/alt-right actions that are now permeating so many countries.


Agreed.

Alecta: To be fair though, I think you were not saying that all Doms are better than all subs... but more that each Dom is more inclined to select a sub that is simply less X, Y or Z than him/herself? Therefore, "less than" on an individual level, as opposed to a categorical level? But that this "lesser" than is - to you - critical to your dynamic? And that you wouldn't choose a sub that is, e.g. smarter, wiser, more accomplished, etc. than yourself, as this would render you unable to assume the "better" role as the guiding party?

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that's what you're saying?



OsideGirl -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 10:43:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

There are couple of things I wonder about this.

1. Was he on his best behavior, or did he find things about you that he wanted to 'improve' (from his POV), and instead of speaking to you about them, went the whole, "I'mma teach you," you route? Because that could be crappy communication rather than a specific relationship dynamic he usually employed.

2. Did you resent the guidance because you felt like you had that stuff under control, or because it was guidance, period? In other words, do you want bedroom submission only, or do you want a partner who might guide you in other areas of your life that you feel like you can improve in?

3. When this started happening, did you ask what he was wanting you to improve, or did you simply react to the methods?

Truly, what you want out of a relationship is what you want. There are many people who enjoy bedroom only, and many who enjoy guiding a person where they want to receive support, and not everywhere...

Personally, I choose submissives that I feel are so freaking amazing that there is very little I need to guide them in. But I also earn my place (I have never collared someone with less than 8 months with them—and I felt I was rushing things), and they ask for the guidance I offer. I would never force that on anyone.



I've always found the "I'm going to improve you" routine to be irritating.

First, just because someone is Dominant doesn't mean that they're qualified to be my life coach. Hell, the majority of them don't even have their own shit together.

Second, why assume that a submissive is damaged goods right from the outset?

We are in a TPE relationship, but he was wisely declined running my career and businesses. We do discuss these together and I bet his opinion, but ultimately those choices are mine.








Alecta -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 11:05:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gnathic
each Dom is more inclined to select a sub that is simply less X, Y or Z than him/herself? Therefore, "less than" on an individual level, as opposed to a categorical level? But that this "lesser" than is - to you - critical to your dynamic? And that you wouldn't choose a sub that is, e.g. smarter, wiser, more accomplished, etc. than yourself, as this would render you unable to assume the "better" role as the guiding party?

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that's what you're saying?


Thank you for acknowledging that the discussion is not a blanket on "all Doms are better than subs". Yes, individual as opposed to categorical is a better way of putting it. And perhaps it bears elaborating that the "better" or "less/more than" is a vague generic based on a person's own unique internal assessment towards another and not a universal measure, which much as some would want to deny it, is an inherent part of how humans work. Using whatever unique internal criteria we have, we evaluate people we interact with constantly, consciously and subconsciously sorting them through categories and hierarchies that are unique to ourselves. For example, by your internal measures, you might consider person A to be better than you, but I, by my assessment process, may not (think he is better than you). It is certainly possible for both parties to think the other is "better".

My proposal was that this is a matter of greater importance to the submissive, and to more numbers of submissives, than the Dom. That, as the submissive looking for "guidance", the sub needs to think the Dom is better than them (in that mutable quantity they define for themselves that makes them look up to the Dom) in order to accept his guidance.

Like Nookie, I personally prefer slaves who have expertise beyond myself in some things, who choose to put that expertise and skill to my use and add to my life and pursuits. Otherwise, what's the point?



LadyPact -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 12:11:39 PM)

Before I say anything else, I have to give you some sincere credit, OP. You created a really decent thread here. On with the show...
quote:

ORIGINAL: gnathic
Hi,

I'm relatively new to kink. I recently had an experience of being a sub to a Dom for a couple of months (I ended it partially due to incompatibility reasons).

While I loved being a sub, I strongly disliked the open attempt my Dom had at 'guiding' me. While I enjoyed being 'guided' in the sense of learning how to please him within our dynamic/as his sub, I strongly disliked how this would extend to a personal/non-sub level in terms of encouraging me down certain paths. For example, encouraging me to be more 'confident' (I am not lacking in confidence at all), and arranging (without my consent or knowledge) for me to speak with an online submissive (our D/s dynamic was not an online one) so I could "learn" from another submissive (despite the fact I regularly attend munches and FL events and have befriended several people, including subs).

My impression from reading online about kink is that this floats a lot of people's boats - which is great - but I hated it. I felt condescended to, and that I was not being acknowledged as the strong and capable person that I felt I am and that everyone, besides him, acknowledge me to be.

My question is... Do Dom/mes see the 'guidance' stuff as integral to the dynamic? And if this is the common view, how should I bring up to my next Dom/me that - while I don't like D/s that is confined purely to the bedroom - I do not want to be 'guided'?

Thanks for reading :)

I am probably guilty of this, because I consider 'guidance' as a part of leading the dynamic. If I'm seeing something lacking, I'm going to steer the other person in the direction that I want them to go. You mentioned "confidence" several times and were quite articulate in explaining that you do have it. If you really do/did, I'd have probably left this area alone. On the other hand, if you really didn't, and this was one of my areas of authority, I'd be looking for ways for you to start acquiring confidence in some areas that fit your capabilities. There are a number of ways I can orchestrate this, for the purpose of achieving this goal, (if we've decided this was a goal). If you had a false sense of confidence, which you mentioned in some replies, I'm going to have a harder time with this task.

Going to re-post this point, because I've dealt with this:

quote:

arranging (without my consent or knowledge) for me to speak with an online submissive (our D/s dynamic was not an online one) so I could "learn" from another submissive (despite the fact I regularly attend munches and FL events and have befriended several people, including subs).

My personal belief is that you can't "force" any other two people to cultivate an inter-personal relationship, based solely on your desire that they have one. That 'befriending' that you speak of? I can't *make* that happen. What I can do, because, remember, you have agreed that I'm the person in authority, is say, "you are required to go to sub-circle". In this, I hope you will cultivate those friendships/relationships, but I'm not some kind of puppeteer. Do I think such potential has possible value? Yes. And that's exactly why Engie goes.

Would I introduce you to another submissive based on an area that I felt you had in common? Yes. If you had, for example, body issues, and I knew another submissive who overcame body issues during the acts of bottoming/submitting, I'm going to point you in that direction. I don't have the realm of first person experience wit d

While I'm thinking about it, I'm going to mention something else. Work. I'm a very 'hands-off' Dominant when it comes to most areas of employment. Frankly, I probably don't (currently) do what you do for a living, so again, it's probably not my area of expertise. (It's ok. I don't expect you to understand the nuances of my job, either.) YOU know what your requirements are from your place of employment. YOU know what it will take for you to succeed. YOU know what it takes to get promoted, get better benefits, etc. That makes you more knowledgeable than me.

In this same vein, I may not always 'get' the ins and outs of your workplace. There have been a couple of projects that Engie has done at work in the last few months that I didn't fully comprehend the intricacies about, AT ALL. Yep, he had to 'dumb down' certain details for me, but that didn't mean I wasn't happy for his success.

You inferred something else. "How do you communicate what level of power/authority/control/etc in the next relationship?" Well, it seems simplistic, but you evaluate what was good, what went wrong, and figure out what's in the middle. You know some things didn't work for you. Maybe, to you, those are 'off limits' areas. Go into the next dynamic with that understanding and be willing to say, "no, not again". Look for something that fits you.

Again, great job on this thread. I wish there were more like it. Best of luck with your endeavors.






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