RE: Question about Guidance and Domination

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NookieNotes -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 1:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic If you genuinely think you are smart/wise, why would you need to chase/force external validation for this? People who are genuinely smart/wise naturally receive respect, and are shown it by people seeking them out for information/advice. They don't need to force it. I wouldn't, myself. However, I do, through basic positive reinforcement, make it very clear that I respond as well or better to compliments about my brains as I do about my looks from those I love and respect. Then again, compliments from people I don't love and respect don't hold that much weight with me, so, yeah. quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl I've always found the "I'm going to improve you" routine to be irritating. First, just because someone is Dominant doesn't mean that they're qualified to be my life coach. Hell, the majority of them don't even have their own shit together. Agreed. quote: Second, why assume that a submissive is damaged goods right from the outset? Well, I think some are. And that's a valid relationship dynamic. Just not for me. I want the best. Hell, I used to joke that I preferred guys at least two points hotter than I am on the "perfect ten" scale. I don't, really. I love me some ugly hots. I do, though, want people I can really respect and look up to. quote: ORIGINAL: Alecta Like Nookie, I personally prefer slaves who have expertise beyond myself in some things, who choose to put that expertise and skill to my use and add to my life and pursuits. Otherwise, what's the point? Uh huh. I'm a Domme. I'm not a mother looking to adopt an adult child.

gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 1:46:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: NookieNotes There are couple of things I wonder about this. 1. Was he on his best behavior, or did he find things about you that he wanted to 'improve' (from his POV), and instead of speaking to you about them, went the whole, "I'mma teach you," you route? Because that could be crappy communication rather than a specific relationship dynamic he usually employed. 2. Did you resent the guidance because you felt like you had that stuff under control, or because it was guidance, period? In other words, do you want bedroom submission only, or do you want a partner who might guide you in other areas of your life that you feel like you can improve in? 3. When this started happening, did you ask what he was wanting you to improve, or did you simply react to the methods? Truly, what you want out of a relationship is what you want. There are many people who enjoy bedroom only, and many who enjoy guiding a person where they want to receive support, and not everywhere... Personally, I choose submissives that I feel are so freaking amazing that there is very little I need to guide them in. But I also earn my place (I have never collared someone with less than 8 months with them—and I felt I was rushing things), and they ask for the guidance I offer. I would never force that on anyone. I've always found the "I'm going to improve you" routine to be irritating. First, just because someone is Dominant doesn't mean that they're qualified to be my life coach. Hell, the majority of them don't even have their own shit together. Second, why assume that a submissive is damaged goods right from the outset? We are in a TPE relationship, but he was wisely declined running my career and businesses. We do discuss these together and I bet his opinion, but ultimately those choices are mine. Amen. Nothing dries me up faster than a conversation along those lines. I agree. All the partners I ever get with are people that I like right from the start. I'm never thinking to myself, "You're really great and all, but you'd be even better (IMO) if you changed this about yourself..." I prefer finished products. I think my kicks come from learning about the person and how they have got to the (IMO) incredible person that they are today, as opposed to turning them into someone I think is perfect. I would operate in the same way. Different people have different skills and proclivities, and I think it is advantageous to recognise when (and when not to) give your advice, as sometimes it just isn't applicable if the other person either has that under their thumb, or you're unable to help in that situation. Otherwise, such a conversation is more about you than it is them. And they may just start seeing you as someone who likes to advise people in itself, as opposed to someone who actually knows what they are talking about and accepts the limitations of their knowledge. If you were, for example, to visit your GP about a neurological problem (a problem that is not handled by GPs, but specialist doctors/neurologists) and instead of referring you to a neurologist, instead attempted to diagnose your problem him/herself, I think most people would advise against visiting this GP again, as s/he doesn't give advice based on the remits of his/her own expertise/knowledge.

gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 1:59:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alecta quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic each Dom is more inclined to select a sub that is simply less X, Y or Z than him/herself? Therefore, "less than" on an individual level, as opposed to a categorical level? But that this "lesser" than is - to you - critical to your dynamic? And that you wouldn't choose a sub that is, e.g. smarter, wiser, more accomplished, etc. than yourself, as this would render you unable to assume the "better" role as the guiding party? Correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that's what you're saying? Thank you for acknowledging that the discussion is not a blanket on "all Doms are better than subs". Yes, individual as opposed to categorical is a better way of putting it. And perhaps it bears elaborating that the "better" or "less/more than" is a vague generic based on a person's own unique internal assessment towards another and not a universal measure, which much as some would want to deny it, is an inherent part of how humans work. Using whatever unique internal criteria we have, we evaluate people we interact with constantly, consciously and subconsciously sorting them through categories and hierarchies that are unique to ourselves. For example, by your internal measures, you might consider person A to be better than you, but I, by my assessment process, may not (think he is better than you). It is certainly possible for both parties to think the other is "better". My proposal was that this is a matter of greater importance to the submissive, and to more numbers of submissives, than the Dom. That, as the submissive looking for "guidance", the sub needs to think the Dom is better than them (in that mutable quantity they define for themselves that makes them look up to the Dom) in order to accept his guidance. Like Nookie, I personally prefer slaves who have expertise beyond myself in some things, who choose to put that expertise and skill to my use and add to my life and pursuits. Otherwise, what's the point? I agree, I think people do (consciously and unconsciously) make internal assessments about the worth of others. I doubt we'd have the hierarchical society that we have if not for this tendency. :) I think - besides the fact that, as I have said - treating someone like they are "lesser" is just plain unpleasant, I think it feels worse for the recipient when that person seems to be determined to view you as such, and continuously moves the goalposts and avoids certain information about you in order to maintain their internal assessment of you. This is why I resented him - in part - because I felt he had made up his mind about me (on the basis that I was his younger, female sub - a "girl" as he later admitted he viewed me) and he had a whole load of (probably stereotypical) assumptions of me as a result of this. And any conversations I tried to engage in with him that interfered with this assessment were therefore shut down by him in an attempt to maintain this view. Sheesh... unpleasant. I'm not sure... My personal guess would be that it is quite mutual, judging by the threads on the topic that I searched through prior to making this one. I also noticed that on the bdsmtest that it asks you questions from both sides of the coin: "I like to feel that I am older/(mentally) stronger/bigger/further in life... than my partner." (first page of the bdsmtest... the flip side is further into the test) so I think that is a fair indication that Dom/mes certainly appreciate the flipside too. I agree.

gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 2:16:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Before I say anything else, I have to give you some sincere credit, OP. You created a really decent thread here. On with the show... quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic Hi, I'm relatively new to kink. I recently had an experience of being a sub to a Dom for a couple of months (I ended it partially due to incompatibility reasons). While I loved being a sub, I strongly disliked the open attempt my Dom had at 'guiding' me. While I enjoyed being 'guided' in the sense of learning how to please him within our dynamic/as his sub, I strongly disliked how this would extend to a personal/non-sub level in terms of encouraging me down certain paths. For example, encouraging me to be more 'confident' (I am not lacking in confidence at all), and arranging (without my consent or knowledge) for me to speak with an online submissive (our D/s dynamic was not an online one) so I could "learn" from another submissive (despite the fact I regularly attend munches and FL events and have befriended several people, including subs). My impression from reading online about kink is that this floats a lot of people's boats - which is great - but I hated it. I felt condescended to, and that I was not being acknowledged as the strong and capable person that I felt I am and that everyone, besides him, acknowledge me to be. My question is... Do Dom/mes see the 'guidance' stuff as integral to the dynamic? And if this is the common view, how should I bring up to my next Dom/me that - while I don't like D/s that is confined purely to the bedroom - I do not want to be 'guided'? Thanks for reading :) I am probably guilty of this, because I consider 'guidance' as a part of leading the dynamic. If I'm seeing something lacking, I'm going to steer the other person in the direction that I want them to go. You mentioned "confidence" several times and were quite articulate in explaining that you do have it. If you really do/did, I'd have probably left this area alone. On the other hand, if you really didn't, and this was one of my areas of authority, I'd be looking for ways for you to start acquiring confidence in some areas that fit your capabilities. There are a number of ways I can orchestrate this, for the purpose of achieving this goal, (if we've decided this was a goal). If you had a false sense of confidence, which you mentioned in some replies, I'm going to have a harder time with this task. Going to re-post this point, because I've dealt with this: quote: arranging (without my consent or knowledge) for me to speak with an online submissive (our D/s dynamic was not an online one) so I could "learn" from another submissive (despite the fact I regularly attend munches and FL events and have befriended several people, including subs). My personal belief is that you can't "force" any other two people to cultivate an inter-personal relationship, based solely on your desire that they have one. That 'befriending' that you speak of? I can't make that happen. What I can do, because, remember, you have agreed that I'm the person in authority, is say, "you are required to go to sub-circle". In this, I hope you will cultivate those friendships/relationships, but I'm not some kind of puppeteer. Do I think such potential has possible value? Yes. And that's exactly why Engie goes. Would I introduce you to another submissive based on an area that I felt you had in common? Yes. If you had, for example, body issues, and I knew another submissive who overcame body issues during the acts of bottoming/submitting, I'm going to point you in that direction. I don't have the realm of first person experience wit d While I'm thinking about it, I'm going to mention something else. Work. I'm a very 'hands-off' Dominant when it comes to most areas of employment. Frankly, I probably don't (currently) do what you do for a living, so again, it's probably not my area of expertise. (It's ok. I don't expect you to understand the nuances of my job, either.) YOU know what your requirements are from your place of employment. YOU know what it will take for you to succeed. YOU know what it takes to get promoted, get better benefits, etc. That makes you more knowledgeable than me. In this same vein, I may not always 'get' the ins and outs of your workplace. There have been a couple of projects that Engie has done at work in the last few months that I didn't fully comprehend the intricacies about, AT ALL. Yep, he had to 'dumb down' certain details for me, but that didn't mean I wasn't happy for his success. You inferred something else. "How do you communicate what level of power/authority/control/etc in the next relationship?" Well, it seems simplistic, but you evaluate what was good, what went wrong, and figure out what's in the middle. You know some things didn't work for you. Maybe, to you, those are 'off limits' areas. Go into the next dynamic with that understanding and be willing to say, "no, not again". Look for something that fits you. Again, great job on this thread. I wish there were more like it. Best of luck with your endeavors. Thank you, I appreciate that :) I'm glad you've found this topic interesting too. I think there's no problem with that if the sub enjoys it too. By "leading the dynamic" are you referring to the fact that it reinforces that you are steering his/her behaviour and decisions? I see what you mean, for sure. I think, for me (and I can only talk about those who have not been/are not my subs, as I haven't had one) that whenever I've perceived someone else as lacking in confidence, I've always taken the approach of encouraging them at what they were doing, e.g. my brother used to enjoy sketching but lacked confidence and this used to make him frustrated and he wanted to stop as a result. So when he would bring this up with me specifically, I would reassure him that his art was good and that anyway, sketching is hard and very skill-based and that you only need to keep trying/practising. Just keep at it, you'll get there. And as you are asking, I think if you practised particularly in X area, this would help a lot." <- I think this is different to me walking up to him one day and saying, "You're not very good at art. Keep practicing, change this about the sketch, and work on X technique". I think my brother, after being stunned into brief silence, would have told me - in perhaps less direct terms - to take my input and shove it up my ass. That if he wants my advice, he'll ask for it. Now, in this situation, if he actually did feel confident about his work, and I then said that to him, I think he'd be even more irritated at me. Vice versa. I think those dynamics occur naturally. I actually felt a bit sorry for the sub in question, as I wouldn't ever want someone to feel obligated to talk to me/share information with me. But hell yeah, I would have been very up for a suggestion such as yours. In that event, I had not engaged in the specific type of interaction you would be suggesting (going to a subsocial, vs. his desiring me to talk to a sub - as I already was speaking to subs - and directly, not online). I agree with those points, for sure. Thanks for your comment by the way, it's been very helpful and interesting to read. Good luck with your own endeavours too. :)

Alecta -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 2:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic I think it feels worse for the recipient when that person seems to be determined to view you as such, and continuously moves the goalposts and avoids certain information about you in order to maintain their internal assessment of you. This sort of thing happens in life all the time, and is going to keep happening. The best you can do for yourself is recognise it happens and therefore know how to watch for it and how to avoid falling victim. That said, some people do enjoy it for myriad reasons, and since it is "a thing", there are people who would assume that you being a younger woman interested in an older man as a Dom, are into that sort of dynamic. All you can do is state clearly up front that you are not. The BDSMtest is rigged. It only validates what you want to think about yourself and doesn't actually reveal anything besides what you want to identify as. Honestly, there's going to be people who think a way about anything you can imagine about anything. There are Doms who prefer to be Bottoms and Tops who are their Botom's sub. There are those who want to help their Doms grow, and ones who want their Doms to destroy them. There are those who go for subs and Doms they can hate and despise, and those who want a Dom who constantly belittles them and "keep them in their place", and those who want a Dom who can improve them. It's all relative.

LadyPact -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 3:29:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic Thank you, I appreciate that :) I'm glad you've found this topic interesting too. I think there's no problem with that if the sub enjoys it too. By "leading the dynamic" are you referring to the fact that it reinforces that you are steering his/her behaviour and decisions? In part, yes, though I understand that is not what you might want from a dynamic. Do I want things that please me? Yes. Do I want to align certain decisions of his to parallel my own? Yes. Bottom line of this thing, if we've agreed that I'm in charge of the relationship, there should be some reason why I'm in authority. quote: I see what you mean, for sure. I think, for me (and I can only talk about those who have not been/are not my subs, as I haven't had one) that whenever I've perceived someone else as lacking in confidence, I've always taken the approach of encouraging them at what they were doing, e.g. my brother used to enjoy sketching but lacked confidence and this used to make him frustrated and he wanted to stop as a result. So when he would bring this up with me specifically, I would reassure him that his art was good and that anyway, sketching is hard and very skill-based and that you only need to keep trying/practising. Just keep at it, you'll get there. And as you are asking, I think if you practised particularly in X area, this would help a lot." <- I think this is different to me walking up to him one day and saying, "You're not very good at art. Keep practicing, change this about the sketch, and work on X technique". I think my brother, after being stunned into brief silence, would have told me - in perhaps less direct terms - to take my input and shove it up my ass. That if he wants my advice, he'll ask for it. Now, in this situation, if he actually did feel confident about his work, and I then said that to him, I think he'd be even more irritated at me. Nice choice. Now, personally, no matter what form of 'encouragement' that you gave me, my "art" still sucks. Those stick figures that I draw just aren't the same as the Sistine Chapel, and no matter how many "atta boys" you give me. If I'm deluded enough to think I'm Michael Angelo, even though you and everybody else can see that my "art" is the equivalent to something on the level that somebody would hang on their 'fridge because their third grader did it... Well, you mentioned "false pride" before. quote: Vice versa. I think those dynamics occur naturally. I actually felt a bit sorry for the sub in question, as I wouldn't ever want someone to feel obligated to talk to me/share information with me. But hell yeah, I would have been very up for a suggestion such as yours. In that event, I had not engaged in the specific type of interaction you would be suggesting (going to a subsocial, vs. his desiring me to talk to a sub - as I already was speaking to subs - and directly, not online). I agree with those points, for sure. This is something that has worked with Engie, in particular. As you stated above, you were integrating yourself into the community, making connections, etc. That was absent when he and I started dating. quote: Thanks for your comment by the way, it's been very helpful and interesting to read. Good luck with your own endeavours too. :) Thank you for you well wishes. :)

gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 6:00:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alecta quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic I think it feels worse for the recipient when that person seems to be determined to view you as such, and continuously moves the goalposts and avoids certain information about you in order to maintain their internal assessment of you. This sort of thing happens in life all the time, and is going to keep happening. The best you can do for yourself is recognise it happens and therefore know how to watch for it and how to avoid falling victim. That said, some people do enjoy it for myriad reasons, and since it is "a thing", there are people who would assume that you being a younger woman interested in an older man as a Dom, are into that sort of dynamic. All you can do is state clearly up front that you are not. The BDSMtest is rigged. It only validates what you want to think about yourself and doesn't actually reveal anything besides what you want to identify as. Honestly, there's going to be people who think a way about anything you can imagine about anything. There are Doms who prefer to be Bottoms and Tops who are their Botom's sub. There are those who want to help their Doms grow, and ones who want their Doms to destroy them. There are those who go for subs and Doms they can hate and despise, and those who want a Dom who constantly belittles them and "keep them in their place", and those who want a Dom who can improve them. It's all relative. Thank you, I agree with this advice. I think it's a good strategy to take :) I mentioned the bdsmtest more to just elaborate on the fact that having an "inferior sub"/"superior Dom" can be a fetish for both parties. That it is common enough to be recognised as a preference within the kink community, and hence its presence on a psychological test (as BS as the test may be). I think you make a great point. I will certainly keep this variation in mind next time I am speaking with a potential Dom (or sub!) :) Thanks for all your help.

gnathic -> RE: Question about Guidance and Domination (12/4/2016 6:04:59 PM)
I agree completely :) Thank you. That made me grin, I see your point. I suppose people are usually much more critical of themselves rather than others. Thanks for your help. I'm glad that you have a positive/satisfying dynamic with your sub. I'm certainly going to strive for that next time!

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