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RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/21/2016 12:19:07 PM

tamaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

No kidding. It would be a blessing for them to be retrained to do something else for their own health and well- being.

Fifty-five year old men and women retrained to flip burgers.

Maybe they can learn how to make & install solar panels.

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Post #: 21

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/21/2016 3:35:58 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

No kidding. It would be a blessing for them to be retrained to do something else for their own health and well- being.

Fifty-five year old men and women retrained to flip burgers.

Maybe they can learn how to make & install solar panels.

I respect your seriousness but really there are a lot of young, able-bodied men out there with whom the older folks would be competing unsuccessfully.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Post #: 22

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/21/2016 6:50:55 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

No kidding. It would be a blessing for them to be retrained to do something else for their own health and well- being.

Fifty-five year old men and women retrained to flip burgers.

Maybe we can do better than that.

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Post #: 23

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/21/2016 9:07:07 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

So he's not going to go all Dick Cheney on us, you are saying?

I'm that cynical. Sure looks like it so far.

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Post #: 24

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/21/2016 10:47:01 PM

LadyDemura

Posts: 141
Joined: 2/12/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

No kidding. It would be a blessing for them to be retrained to do something else for their own health and well- being.

Fifty-five year old men and women retrained to flip burgers.

Seems like a better job to me. Before you rip into me, I have to say my grandfather actually was a coal miner. Moved to the US from Europe for that job opportunity. People back then were willing to do things like that, recent coal miners and other blue collar workers in the US don't seem to be even willing to leave the town they are in, much less even the state or region they are from to find new opportunities in another industry.

< Message edited by LadyDemura -- 12/21/2016 10:53:37 PM >

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RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/21/2016 11:00:35 PM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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The reality is that they cant afford to just up and go...
Retraining all miners dismissed from a plant, is hugely costly,how many people can afford to have solar panels installed in boon county.WV???
unless the gov steps in and pays for people to have them installed, sales would be pretty low.
Then you have (hypothetical) 1000 men and women out of work....
THose who are eligible for welfare and unemployment are lucky, but that runs out.
How long and how much are you willing to spend on that 1000 employees to see them all retrained to install solar panels, or computer training, where are you going to do it, how are you going to staff it, how much and how long will it take, do you have enough positions open to train those people in one go?
How do you "test" their abilities, because not all of them will be able to get thru the retraining, placements and other rules for entry into the retraining programs?
Having put together programmes for retraining, its a lot more problematic than you think.

but flipping burgers is for "losers and beginners", isnt that what the right have been telling us? they dont or cant have families if they are so dumb to be talking min wage jobs.

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Post #: 26

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/21/2016 11:19:40 PM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

if your post isn't an example of "you cannot get there from here," I don't know what is.

apart from that in many cases oil and coal are not in direct competition with each other, one of trump's goals is American energy independence, which means an "all of the above strategy."

that includes coal.

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

Coal competes DIRECTLY with the petroleum industry for power generation. (natural gas)
Plants are typically built to run whichever is cheapest and can swap if necessary.. You didn't know that?

What fucking rock do you live under?

As for a politician using his position to enrich himself, how many have you seen that haven't?

Are you THAT fucking naïve? or are you so enamored with the fact that anything with an (R) after its name must be pure and good. (naïve in other words)

It doesn't matter what letter is after a politician's name, the vast majority are out for themselves and their cronies.
They vote the way they're PAID to vote.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Post #: 27

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/22/2016 6:00:36 AM

Musicmystery

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Yeah, even in upstate NY there are coal plants, and while people want to get rid of them, it's expensive, and not that easy.

There are still homes heated with coal.

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Post #: 28

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/22/2016 6:28:58 AM

Nnanji

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Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

if your post isn't an example of "you cannot get there from here," I don't know what is.

apart from that in many cases oil and coal are not in direct competition with each other, one of trump's goals is American energy independence, which means an "all of the above strategy."

that includes coal.

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

Coal competes DIRECTLY with the petroleum industry for power generation. (natural gas)
Plants are typically built to run whichever is cheapest and can swap if necessary.. You didn't know that?

What fucking rock do you live under?

As for a politician using his position to enrich himself, how many have you seen that haven't?

Are you THAT fucking naïve? or are you so enamored with the fact that anything with an (R) after its name must be pure and good. (naïve in other words)

It doesn't matter what letter is after a politician's name, the vast majority are out for themselves and their cronies.
They vote the way they're PAID to vote.

I'm calling BS. A conversion can be done. It cost tens of millions of dollars and can take five years. In your idiotic scenario you make it sound as if you just unplug one and plug the other in.

Oh, and the conversion would be to natural gas, not oil. The Trump guy is a oil man not a natural gas man.

You're making shit up. Now we know you lie to make your points. Pretty stupid with Google so easy to use.

< Message edited by Nnanji -- 12/22/2016 6:30:11 AM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/22/2016 6:35:08 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDemura

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

No kidding. It would be a blessing for them to be retrained to do something else for their own health and well- being.

Fifty-five year old men and women retrained to flip burgers.

Seems like a better job to me. Before you rip into me, I have to say my grandfather actually was a coal miner. Moved to the US from Europe for that job opportunity. People back then were willing to do things like that, recent coal miners and other blue collar workers in the US don't seem to be even willing to leave the town they are in, much less even the state or region they are from to find new opportunities in another industry.

The key word is "opportunity." There is always a push and a pull to migration. Europeans then and Mexicans (other Latinos) now left lives of poverty (the push) to seek available work in America (the pull) The Joad family abandoned their farm in the dust bowl (or were foreclosed) and went to California where jobs could be had in the fruit orchards. Where will unskilled and maybe unschooled middle aged miners find jobs that are not competitive with younger people? And what pay will these jobs offer? Twenty states have passed laws prohibiting localities from raising the minimum wage. Ohio's governor signed such a law yesterday. The minimum wage in Ohio is $8.15 per hour. Not a livable wage and not one that comes with affordable healthcare and a retirement savings plan. To borrow a phrase, the system is rigged against the working poor in this country. The corporate state conspires to maintain wage slavery for its multinational constituents. After the mines closed there was a reported spike in suicides among fifty-year-olds in Montana. Older workers, I think, are the primary losers in the tragic game of Destructive Capitalism.

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Post #: 30

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/22/2016 10:54:49 AM

Musicmystery

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Yeah, maybe, but I don't think that's inevitable.

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RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 7:19:35 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

if your post isn't an example of "you cannot get there from here," I don't know what is.

apart from that in many cases oil and coal are not in direct competition with each other, one of trump's goals is American energy independence, which means an "all of the above strategy."

that includes coal.

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

Coal competes DIRECTLY with the petroleum industry for power generation. (natural gas)
Plants are typically built to run whichever is cheapest and can swap if necessary.. You didn't know that?

What fucking rock do you live under?

As for a politician using his position to enrich himself, how many have you seen that haven't?

Are you THAT fucking naïve? or are you so enamored with the fact that anything with an (R) after its name must be pure and good. (naïve in other words)

It doesn't matter what letter is after a politician's name, the vast majority are out for themselves and their cronies.
They vote the way they're PAID to vote.

I'm calling BS. A conversion can be done. It cost tens of millions of dollars and can take five years. In your idiotic scenario you make it sound as if you just unplug one and plug the other in.

Oh, and the conversion would be to natural gas, not oil. The Trump guy is a oil man not a natural gas man.

You're making shit up. Now we know you lie to make your points. Pretty stupid with Google so easy to use.

a lot are already running on natural gas so the conversion would have to go BACK to coal. (expensively) That's why coal mines are CLOSED and fracking is BOOMING.
As for him being an oil man, not a natural gas man, who the fuck do you think DRILLLS WELLS for natural gas?
It's the oil companies.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Post #: 32

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 8:47:23 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yeah, maybe, but I don't think that's inevitable.

Older workers are more traumatized than younger.

"When older workers involuntarily lose their jobs, they tend to appraise the situation as more intense in that they experience discomfort, disruption and threat, and less reversible in that they perceive a lower likelihood of obtaining re-employment," said Erica Ermann, a doctoral candidate at Colorado State University, who conducted the research.

Not only did a majority of workers over 50 have a more negative experience when losing their job, they also felt that their age was the determining factor. Ermann based her findings on data collected from 308 unemployed workers of all ages and 20 follow-up interviews. In those interviews, almost all the people interviewed said that age was a factor in their dismissal.

LINK

One of the unforgettable lessons of statistics is that correlation does not equal causation. But when the data show older (but not old) Americans out of work longer than others and older (but not old) Americans committing suicide at a higher rate than they have in almost a century, how can you help but wonder if the frustration of the former isn’t contributing to the latter?

LINK

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Post #: 33

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 10:26:07 AM

Nnanji

Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

if your post isn't an example of "you cannot get there from here," I don't know what is.

apart from that in many cases oil and coal are not in direct competition with each other, one of trump's goals is American energy independence, which means an "all of the above strategy."

that includes coal.

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

Coal competes DIRECTLY with the petroleum industry for power generation. (natural gas)
Plants are typically built to run whichever is cheapest and can swap if necessary.. You didn't know that?

What fucking rock do you live under?

As for a politician using his position to enrich himself, how many have you seen that haven't?

Are you THAT fucking naïve? or are you so enamored with the fact that anything with an (R) after its name must be pure and good. (naïve in other words)

It doesn't matter what letter is after a politician's name, the vast majority are out for themselves and their cronies.
They vote the way they're PAID to vote.

I'm calling BS. A conversion can be done. It cost tens of millions of dollars and can take five years. In your idiotic scenario you make it sound as if you just unplug one and plug the other in.

Oh, and the conversion would be to natural gas, not oil. The Trump guy is a oil man not a natural gas man.

You're making shit up. Now we know you lie to make your points. Pretty stupid with Google so easy to use.

a lot are already running on natural gas so the conversion would have to go BACK to coal. (expensively) That's why coal mines are CLOSED and fracking is BOOMING.
As for him being an oil man, not a natural gas man, who the fuck do you think DRILLLS WELLS for natural gas?
It's the oil companies.

Actually, drilling companies are just drilling companies. Hired by whoever needs drilling. You're not doing to well here with this. And saying that many have already converted power systems doesn't address the fact that what you were saying was misleading at best.

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Post #: 34

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 10:44:07 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

if your post isn't an example of "you cannot get there from here," I don't know what is.

apart from that in many cases oil and coal are not in direct competition with each other, one of trump's goals is American energy independence, which means an "all of the above strategy."

that includes coal.

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

Coal competes DIRECTLY with the petroleum industry for power generation. (natural gas)
Plants are typically built to run whichever is cheapest and can swap if necessary.. You didn't know that?

What fucking rock do you live under?

As for a politician using his position to enrich himself, how many have you seen that haven't?

Are you THAT fucking naïve? or are you so enamored with the fact that anything with an (R) after its name must be pure and good. (naïve in other words)

It doesn't matter what letter is after a politician's name, the vast majority are out for themselves and their cronies.
They vote the way they're PAID to vote.

I'm calling BS. A conversion can be done. It cost tens of millions of dollars and can take five years. In your idiotic scenario you make it sound as if you just unplug one and plug the other in.

Oh, and the conversion would be to natural gas, not oil. The Trump guy is a oil man not a natural gas man.

You're making shit up. Now we know you lie to make your points. Pretty stupid with Google so easy to use.

a lot are already running on natural gas so the conversion would have to go BACK to coal. (expensively) That's why coal mines are CLOSED and fracking is BOOMING.
As for him being an oil man, not a natural gas man, who the fuck do you think DRILLLS WELLS for natural gas?
It's the oil companies.

Actually, drilling companies are just drilling companies. Hired by whoever needs drilling. You're not doing to well here with this. And saying that many have already converted power systems doesn't address the fact that what you were saying was misleading at best.

Companies that are hired by the petroleum industry.
You don't drill for coal.
You keep backpedalling because one by one you have let your partisan blinders force you to type crap.

I'm still waiting for politicians who aren't out for themselves and their cronies. Are you also leaving our milk and cookies for Santa tonight?

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 12/24/2016 10:45:03 AM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Post #: 35

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 10:51:09 AM

Nnanji

Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

if your post isn't an example of "you cannot get there from here," I don't know what is.

apart from that in many cases oil and coal are not in direct competition with each other, one of trump's goals is American energy independence, which means an "all of the above strategy."

that includes coal.

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

Coal competes DIRECTLY with the petroleum industry for power generation. (natural gas)
Plants are typically built to run whichever is cheapest and can swap if necessary.. You didn't know that?

What fucking rock do you live under?

As for a politician using his position to enrich himself, how many have you seen that haven't?

Are you THAT fucking naïve? or are you so enamored with the fact that anything with an (R) after its name must be pure and good. (naïve in other words)

It doesn't matter what letter is after a politician's name, the vast majority are out for themselves and their cronies.
They vote the way they're PAID to vote.

I'm calling BS. A conversion can be done. It cost tens of millions of dollars and can take five years. In your idiotic scenario you make it sound as if you just unplug one and plug the other in.

Oh, and the conversion would be to natural gas, not oil. The Trump guy is a oil man not a natural gas man.

You're making shit up. Now we know you lie to make your points. Pretty stupid with Google so easy to use.

a lot are already running on natural gas so the conversion would have to go BACK to coal. (expensively) That's why coal mines are CLOSED and fracking is BOOMING.
As for him being an oil man, not a natural gas man, who the fuck do you think DRILLLS WELLS for natural gas?
It's the oil companies.

Actually, drilling companies are just drilling companies. Hired by whoever needs drilling. You're not doing to well here with this. And saying that many have already converted power systems doesn't address the fact that what you were saying was misleading at best.

Companies that are hired by the petroleum industry.
You don't drill for coal.
You keep backpedalling because one by one you have let your partisan blinders force you to type crap.

I'm still waiting for politicians who aren't out for themselves and their cronies. Are you also leaving our milk and cookies for Santa tonight?

Wow! What a mixed up and disorganized thought process. Must be tough to be you. Maybe you should read things again. This time, think, think really hard about what was actually said.

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Post #: 36

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 11:17:47 AM

Edwird

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Joined: 5/2/2016
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Projection.

Presentation of facts disorganizes your brain. Oil and natural gas are derived from the same biomass, grew up in the same neighborhood, almost impossible to find one without the other.

It's you who is brain twisted, not him.

< Message edited by Edwird -- 12/24/2016 11:32:42 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 11:21:05 AM

bounty44

Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

if your post isn't an example of "you cannot get there from here," I don't know what is.

apart from that in many cases oil and coal are not in direct competition with each other, one of trump's goals is American energy independence, which means an "all of the above strategy."

that includes coal.

quote:

One could no more expect a former big oil exec to smooth the road for big coal (his competitor) than you could expect Jerry Jones to change the rules to help the Redskins if he were to become NFL commish.

and yes, one could---it'll be the guy's job. unless your cynicism is so deep that you believe the purpose of his position is only to enrich his own particular cronies as opposed to helping the country as a whole?

Coal competes DIRECTLY with the petroleum industry for power generation. (natural gas)
Plants are typically built to run whichever is cheapest and can swap if necessary.. You didn't know that?

What fucking rock do you live under?

As for a politician using his position to enrich himself, how many have you seen that haven't?

Are you THAT fucking naïve? or are you so enamored with the fact that anything with an (R) after its name must be pure and good. (naïve in other words)

It doesn't matter what letter is after a politician's name, the vast majority are out for themselves and their cronies.
They vote the way they're PAID to vote.

lets see---on top of what nnanji already said to you, lemme just be more succinct.

natural gas is not a petroleum product. you know, the "oil" part of your op and my subsequent reply. yes I understand one subsumes the other, but my in my point I specifically said, "oil."

if I am guilty of taking too narrow of a reading on your op, you are also guilty of changing my meaning.

however, also see below about the "petroleum industry."

most oil is used for transportation and home heating; by comparison very little is used for the generation of electricity, which is the predominant use for coal.

close to 60% of the nation’s electricity is generated by coal. yes natural gas is the primary competitor with coal in this regard.

whats more, "big oil" companies (your "petroleum industry") actually own coal companies and do energy research utilizing coal. which point essentially renders your distinction either null, or depending on one's point of view, much more complicated than the simplistic version you presented.

not too bad for living under a rock?

as to your personal comments---let me point out to you that you look like a fool when you don't read carefully (which is understandable) and then act with unfounded arrogance after having done so.

go revisit the "whats more" paragraph above.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 12/24/2016 11:56:06 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 11:33:50 AM

Nnanji

Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

Projection.

Presentation of facts disorganizes your brain. Oil and natural gas are derived from the same biomass, grew up in the same neighborhood, almost impossible to find one without the other.

It's you who is brain twisted, not him.

Edweird, your getting off the short bus and making jokes that nobody laughs at again. I spoke to this on another thread. Did you see it? You should think about it.

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Post #: 39

RE: Coal miners are............. - 12/24/2016 11:45:33 AM

Edwird

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Joined: 5/2/2016
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Yes, you related your lengthy experience with short buses and your observations thereby.

As I explained to you, not many are aware of such a thing as a 'short bus,' your extensive knowledge and personal experience in that regard notwithstanding.

The fact that you consider basic geology to be a joke goes some way to explaining your response, along with your good education regarding funny buses.

< Message edited by Edwird -- 12/24/2016 11:50:23 AM >

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Post #: 40