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Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 1:15:21 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		so cities alone cant choose the president and dictate policy for the rest of us





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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 2:21:27 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		More like, how can the US have minority rule 101 ? Civics as in a democratic republic has all throughout history, enacted law, elected representatives and made policy therefrom...by majority rule.

First of all, you write not just that cities but cities alone, all by themselves should not be able to determine not just elect a president but also policy. Not true at all.

Because you then show us a graphic of not just cites but counties which are mush larger in population than just cities.

You have two main fallacies to this argument.

1) The population of just the big cities and even those counties shown...do not determine policy. All elected reps...determine policy.

2) Why should geography matter at all ? Either we have majority rule and the US does in essentially every case of enacting law and office seeking, except one...electing the POUS, or we don't. When it comes to electing a pres....the US does not have majority rule.....

.....we have for most recently in 2000 and 2016...minority rule. A minority of the people now rule in the selection of pres. twice in 16 years.

There is no justification in world history or anywhere else for that matter, in a democracy republic or not...for minority rule. None !!

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/25/2016 2:27:36 AM >

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You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 3:12:01 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

There is no justification in world history or anywhere else for that matter, in a democracy republic or not...for minority rule. None !!

We are neither a democracy nor a democratic republic. Which word in the phrase "united states" don't you understand? The U.S. is comprised of multiple states united in the form of a Constitutional Republic, and the Electoral College serves to prevent minority rule by preventing a small minority of states with large populations from dictating the course of the Union. You're entitled not to like it, but you're not entitled to justify your dislike by making shit up.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/25/2016 3:43:06 AM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 4:28:14 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I support the electoral college for US, because All the different states are really just different countries.
So California can't possibly have more say due to higher population than a different state with a different culture, with lower population.

If the entire world is gonna vote for one world President. Electoral college is probably how we are gonna do it fairly.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/25/2016 4:29:09 AM >

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 5:27:10 AM   
BoscoX


Posts: 11248
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: offline 		That or India and.china are co-dictators right

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:25:57 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		If we eliminate the Electoral College, we must eliminate the Senate (which is not populatin based), and change congressional districts to very probably cross state boundries to keep the population equal.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:44:07 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

If we eliminate the Electoral College, we must eliminate the Senate (which is not populatin based), and change congressional districts to very probably cross state boundries to keep the population equal.

The Senate is counterbalanced by both the House, which IS population based, and the President, which SHOULD be elected by a majority of the people. The Electoral College has no counterbalance system.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:47:21 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Igor, the Electoral College is a mix of both state and population based allowing one vote per member of congress (whom may not be in the college). Best of both worlds.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:50:58 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

More like, how can the US have minority rule 101 ? Civics as in a democratic republic has all throughout history, enacted law, elected representatives and made policy therefrom...by majority rule.

First of all, you write not just that cities but cities alone, all by themselves should not be able to determine not just elect a president but also policy. Not true at all.

Because you then show us a graphic of not just cites but counties which are mush larger in population than just cities.

You have two main fallacies to this argument.

1) The population of just the big cities and even those counties shown...do not determine policy. All elected reps...determine policy.

2) Why should geography matter at all ? Either we have majority rule and the US does in essentially every case of enacting law and office seeking, except one...electing the POUS, or we don't. When it comes to electing a pres....the US does not have majority rule.....

.....we have for most recently in 2000 and 2016...minority rule. A minority of the people now rule in the selection of pres. twice in 16 years.

There is no justification in world history or anywhere else for that matter, in a democracy republic or not...for minority rule. None !!

Also 60, 92, and 96, nobody got a majority in any of those years.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:50:59 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

If we eliminate the Electoral College, we must eliminate the Senate (which is not populatin based), and change congressional districts to very probably cross state boundries to keep the population equal.

We've already eliminated the Senate for all practical purposes. The representatives of the people sit in the House of Representatives, popularly elected and apportioned by population. The Senate was intended to seat delegates from the governments of the states, with each state being equally represented. But with senators now being popularly elected, the governments of the states stand effectively deprived of any representation in Congress.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/25/2016 8:59:18 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:53:41 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

There is no justification in world history or anywhere else for that matter, in a democracy republic or not...for minority rule. None !!

We are neither a democracy nor a democratic republic. Which word in the phrase "united states" don't you understand? The U.S. is comprised of multiple states united in the form of a Constitutional Republic, and the Electoral College serves to prevent minority rule by preventing a small minority of states with large populations from dictating the course of the Union. You're entitled not to like it, but you're not entitled to justify your dislike by making shit up.

K.


As someone pointed out in another thread, we didn't have a presidential election, we ha 51, and like it or not, Trump won the vast majority.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:55:31 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

If we eliminate the Electoral College, we must eliminate the Senate (which is not populatin based), and change congressional districts to very probably cross state boundries to keep the population equal.

The Senate is counterbalanced by both the House, which IS population based, and the President, which SHOULD be elected by a majority of the people. The Electoral College has no counterbalance system.

The EC is the counter balance system.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 9:22:20 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		I do not fully understand the system, well the intricacies.....if they chose not to vote for whoever, they vote for someone else, some can be replaced, some can recast their vote, and the fact a Nazi/Communist candidate can slabber the other and still not get into office

All that aside, Real0ne what’s your fuking point...certainly it’s not here is pretty map cause it aint its fuking ugly map...odd my very last post http://www.collarchat.com/m_4982673/tm.htm mentioned Maps of the Ancient sea kings...one of us is psychic, the other psychotic - we should have wenches pillow fight this one out for us I feel, yes of course they need to oil up first.

Look I dont understand the system it makes no sense. I thought it was to stop nutters getting in.

So we need a lesson who are the “electoral college” why do they even call it that? Are they not singular individuals, and how the hell are they chosen and by whom. I see more of the Democrats maned/womened up than the communist pussies from the GOP


< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 12/25/2016 9:29:17 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 6:53:29 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
So we need a lesson who are the “electoral college” why do they even call it that? Are they not singular individuals, and how the hell are they chosen and by whom. I see more of the Democrats maned/womened up than the communist pussies from the GOP



It's quite simple. 51 states gets to vote. Depending on the population density of each state, they will be entitled for a certain number of electoral votes. So California being one of the highest population living in it get 55 electoral vote. That's huge! Alaska for example only gets 3 electoral vote, as there is barely people living there although land mass wise, Alaska is bigger than California.

Who these electoral vote goes to, depends on within the state, who majority people within that specific state wants to vote for.

I can't think of a fairer system than this. I can't see how fair popular vote can possibly be.

America is a large country, and the bible belt is like totally another Universe from California for example. It's like Scotland and England, two whole different countries, with different cultures.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/25/2016 6:56:38 PM >

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:24:24 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
So we need a lesson who are the “electoral college” why do they even call it that? Are they not singular individuals, and how the hell are they chosen and by whom. I see more of the Democrats maned/womened up than the communist pussies from the GOP



It's quite simple. 51 states gets to vote. Depending on the population density of each state, they will be entitled for a certain number of electoral votes. So California being one of the highest population living in it get 55 electoral vote. That's huge! Alaska for example only gets 3 electoral vote, as there is barely people living there although land mass wise, Alaska is bigger than California.

Who these electoral vote goes to, depends on within the state, who majority people within that specific state wants to vote for.

I can't think of a fairer system than this. I can't see how fair popular vote can possibly be.

America is a large country, and the bible belt is like totally another Universe from California for example. It's like Scotland and England, two whole different countries, with different cultures.



Greta, have you ever been here in the US?

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:38:07 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
Greta, have you ever been here in the US?

Twice in my life time.
And my brother has been based there for 16 years. Starting out in the West, to the East, where-ever the jobs are. He has no plans to ever return to Singapore. But personally, he is just trying to stay as far away from our parents as possible.

But meeting an American from Georgia for example is very different from meeting someone from San Diego.

My x-boss who I worked for 12 years as his second in command, is from New Jersey. But he gave up American citizenship to become Singaporean now. Says he can't stand the American tax system. Anyway, they are taxing him despite him owning businesses in Singapore and working here, so it benefits him to give up the citizenship.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/25/2016 8:43:44 PM >

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 8:54:28 PM   
SunDominant


Posts: 136
Joined: 7/12/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
Look I dont understand the system it makes no sense. I thought it was to stop nutters getting in.


In contemporary terms, at its founding the United States was more like the European Union, and no state wanted to be dominated by other states or the federal government. The electoral college was put in place to assist in avoiding such situations as much as possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire
So we need a lesson who are the “electoral college” why do they even call it that? Are they not singular individuals, and how the hell are they chosen and by whom. I see more of the Democrats maned/womened up than the communist pussies from the GOP


The rules for electors differ from state to state. The Constitution was quite clear initially in that it supposedly clearly delineated the few limited powers of the federal government which were necessary to represent us as one voice in foreign policy, as well as keeping peace between the state and promoting interstate commerce, while leaving the majority of power to the individual states. Over time, wealthy and powerful interests from banks to defense contractors eroded such power so that the country could be entirely controlled by approximately 550 people centered in Washington, D.C.

Like you, I also noticed that far more electors turned on Clinton than Trump. It certainly showed that some liberals are still feeling the Bern.

Postscript: A very merry Christmas to you and your kitties.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 10:17:52 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

There is no justification in world history or anywhere else for that matter, in a democracy republic or not...for minority rule. None !!

We are neither a democracy nor a democratic republic. Which word in the phrase "united states" don't you understand? The U.S. is comprised of multiple states united in the form of a Constitutional Republic, and the Electoral College serves to prevent minority rule by preventing a small minority of states with large populations from dictating the course of the Union. You're entitled not to like it, but you're not entitled to justify your dislike by making shit up.

K.


I am not making anything up. When any person is elected in a democracy where in every other case, majority does rule, not when one is by a minority of the voters, it becomes minority rule and arguments against that are as valid if not more so...as any for it.

That any majority may originate from small geographical areas makes no difference. One could just as easily argue that a minority of farmers shouldn't rule over a majority of city dwellers.

What dictates the 'course of the Union' is decided by a majority vote in the houses of congress and what laws stand constitutional scrutiny are determined by a majority of judge's votes. The only instance in our republic which is a democratically elected republic that isn't majority rule is in electing the POTUS. That's wrong and undemocratic.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/25/2016 10:27:57 PM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 10:22:37 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

If we eliminate the Electoral College, we must eliminate the Senate (which is not population based), and change congressional districts to very probably cross state boundries to keep the population equal.

Wrong. To eliminate the EC is to have majority rule for electing the POTUS just as in every other instance. Unequal representation in the senate according to population...is not minority rule. Having 2 senators for each state...is equal representation.

Congressional districts are now changed to gather votes from one particular population. It's called gerrymandering.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/25/2016 10:28:56 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

There is no justification in world history or anywhere else for that matter, in a democracy republic or not...for minority rule. None !!

We are neither a democracy nor a democratic republic. Which word in the phrase "united states" don't you understand? The U.S. is comprised of multiple states united in the form of a Constitutional Republic, and the Electoral College serves to prevent minority rule by preventing a small minority of states with large populations from dictating the course of the Union. You're entitled not to like it, but you're not entitled to justify your dislike by making shit up.

I am not making anything up.

Yes you are, and you're doing it again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

When any person is elected in a democracy....

The United States is not a democracy. Have a nice day.

K.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 20
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