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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

So I presume you have given up, hence conceded your position that God is a criminal simply because God is the creator.

Is that what you think?

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

Oh right because it's so important for all of this to make perfect sense.

Not to you, evidently.

K.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

it's contradictory to believe in both free will and an omniscient, omnipresent God

There is no ocntradiction what so ever, I suggest you look up the meaning of the words you use, as you are applying them incorrectly.

Why don't you just tell me why you think there isn't a contradiction?

so rather than look up the words to see what they actually mean you would rather blindly continue arguing for the sake of arguing. Good luck with that.

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

it's contradictory to believe in both free will and an omniscient, omnipresent God

There is no ocntradiction what so ever, I suggest you look up the meaning of the words you use, as you are applying them incorrectly.

Why don't you just tell me why you think there isn't a contradiction?

so rather than look up the words to see what they actually mean you would rather blindly continue arguing for the sake of arguing. Good luck with that.

You made an assertion that you refuse to explain or support in any way... how am I supposed to NOT blindly argue?

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ORIGINAL: Kirata



Peon mentioned The Tao of Physics earlier in the thread. Following up on that, we have confirmed only recently in the 21st century that mass is frequency, that the universe arises from the vibrating pure energy of void space. Not to put too fine a point on it:

The masses of particles are -- not are like, or similar to, or metaphorically suggested by -- they are the tones, the frequencies, of these vibration patterns in dynamical voids... These are very hard, rigorously tested, battle worn consequences... so, I mean, as scientific facts, as hard as they get... there really is that rigorous sense in which mass is frequency.

Source: Frank Wilczek, Nobel Laureate Lecture Series, March 2005, MIT

But this is only news to us. The Spanda Karika, a Saivite text, said the same thing more than a thousand years ago, namely, that the universe arises from the action of Spanda Sakti (spanda: vibration, sakti: pure energy), the vibrating pure energy of the Void. In Brahmanism, the universe arises from Saraswati playing the strings of a musical instrument, the metaphor of sound representing the vibration of the energies. In a similar vein, and for the same reason, the letters of the Sanskrit alphabet are called the matrikas, the Mothers. We find the metaphor again in Genesis, where God "speaks" the worlds into being, and in Psalm 33 ("By the word of the Lord were the heavens made").

So it would seem that science is only just beginning to catch up with what some religions have known for millenia. And while there will always be quacks, in both science and religion, it benefits no one to throw out the baby along with the bathwater.

K.

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ORIGINAL: tamaka
If the world was a small preschool classroom, the teacher might be able to 'be' (everywhere) in the room and 'know' (everything) going on in the room ... which has nothing to do with the fact that the children are throwing crayons at each other in the writing corner.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata
Okay, fair enough. Let's set aside my previous objection. The fact remains that what you think it means simply doesn't correspond with the text. Common belief aside, Genesis doesn't describe a creation ex nihilo. Before (a temporal reference) the acts of creation everything is formless, void of order, void of structure. Genesis describes the calling forth of form from the formless, the separation and organization of the waters of the deep. There isn't even the slightest hint of space and time being created (see Origin, above). What is being created is rational comprehensible order. Or in the Greek of John:

En archē ēn ho Logos

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if this hasn't already been brought up its worth noting, throughout history, scientists across a variety of disciplines saw their study of nature as a way of seeking to understand god.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata
Are you thinking of John 1:3?

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Seems pretty clear to me that "all things were made by him" means all things that were made were made by him. Genesis doesn't record the creation of space, time, or the raw material (the waters of the deep) from which the new creation was drawn and formed. They're a given. To say that heavyblinker made a table doesn't imply that he made the wood.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
the same goes for those who use physics to explain metaphysics, and natural to explain supernatural demand corporeal evidence to prove incorporeal data sets which it never fails is 'always' the case and unfortunately inescapable in these discussions I can only presume because so many people do not understand the lines in the sand exist much less where those lines are to be found.

Okay, then I'm pretty sure that the reason God was able to 'be' in this pre-space/pre-time state and create the world is because of magic.

Happy?

I dont know the conditions of space and time that you describe actually ever existed, do you have any supporting evidence of such?

Of course not.
Where is your evidence that God exists?

you know if the best you can do is continually dodge counterpoints you might consider posting to a different thread