Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 2:00:22 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.
A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will. And yet we have the ability for perception and the capacity to wonder about the endless natural tragedies that befall humans.


If the theists are to be believed, apparently humans have enough intelligence to figure out that a deity exists, to attribute various qualities and talents to that deity, but not enough to either divine its intentions or prove its existence conclusively.

It seems that this (benevolent?) deity has left us all permanently in the lurch, suspended perpetually somewhere between ignorance and enlightenment, bright enough to know our limitations and stupid enough to ignore them.

Now why any entity would be daft enough to do this is a question that needs answering but it seems our theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...

_____________________________



(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 2:16:24 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...

The phrase you were looking for is the virtue of humility.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 2:17:30 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.
A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will. And yet we have the ability for perception and the capacity to wonder about the endless natural tragedies that befall humans.


If the theists are to be believed, apparently humans have enough intelligence to figure out that a deity exists, to attribute various qualities and talents to that deity, but not enough to either divine its intentions or prove its existence conclusively.

It seems that this (benevolent?) deity has left us all permanently in the lurch, suspended perpetually somewhere between ignorance and enlightenment, bright enough to know our limitations and stupid enough to ignore them.

Now why any entity would be daft enough to do this is a question that needs answering but it seems our theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...



Perhaps he just likes to confuse and piss off athiests. Not that it takes much but still......

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 3:02:53 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...

The phrase you were looking for is the virtue of humility.

K.


No. The phrase I was looking for was the one I wrote. I wasn't aware that you had suddenly gained the power to see inside my mind and am pretty sure you don't possess any such power or insight. It's all a bit rich coming from someone who is as fond of criticising others for their 'mind-reading' abilities as you are. I wanted to state that theists invariably admit ignorance when pressed to explain why any entity would creates such a silly set of conditions and limitations such as those that apply to humans and that is what I stated.

However I am sure it would be appreciated if those same believers displayed the same virtue of ignorance (or even humility) when it comes to identifying/proclaiming their favoured deity's alleged talents powers and attributes. I am unable to report ever witnessing any believer doing so. Indeed believers are notable for their propensity to eloquently attribute all kinds of magical powers talents and other qualities to their favoured deities. The absence of even the merest hint of humility or any admission of ignorance is notable. In fact quite the opposite - such claims are characterised by their strident dogmatic tones of absolute conviction and certainty.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/11/2017 3:26:10 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 5:08:21 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		do you think you have some incredible and marvelous insight into theology and faith such that you've identified some fatal and heretofore undiscovered flaw that's never been addressed before?

look up the word hubris and consider it in light of your post.

if you actually want the answers to those questions as opposed to unjustifiably posturing with them on a forum and [wrongly] taking a lack of response as evidence of your correctness, they exist, go search for them in earnest.

and kirata's not engaging in "mind-reading"--in part, he's correctly categorizing and partially answering the thing you are describing. a little reading on the word "humility" should help you to see that.

or you can just come back without doing any of those things and continue to misunderstand and self-justify.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/11/2017 5:15:00 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 6:04:39 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

do you think you have some incredible and marvelous insight into theology and faith such that you've identified some fatal and heretofore undiscovered flaw that's never been addressed before?

look up the word hubris and consider it in light of your post.

if you actually want the answers to those questions as opposed to unjustifiably posturing with them on a forum and [wrongly] taking a lack of response as evidence of your correctness, they exist, go search for them in earnest.

and kirata's not engaging in "mind-reading"--in part, he's correctly categorizing and partially answering the thing you are describing. a little reading on the word "humility" should help you to see that.

or you can just come back without doing any of those things and continue to misunderstand and self-justify.


If one peels back the bluster and bombast that characterises your post, it's evident that you are unable or unwilling to provide an explanation either. Yet for no apparent reason, you sound convinced that one exists ....

I doubt if your purpose was to confirm my observation that believers' claims in this area are notable for : "The absence of even the merest hint of humility or any admission of ignorance [...]. In fact quite the opposite - such claims are characterised by their strident dogmatic tones of absolute conviction and certainty." But your post offers good supporting evidence for my observation.

So in the end your post makes an awful lot of noise while managing to say virtually nothing useful at all.

_____________________________



(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 8:22:01 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will.

Why would someone who doesn't even know whether there is a God be admonishing people not to question his will?

I don't know whether there is a God or not, but while it may be easy for you to imagine how you would do things if you had God's power, it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

I know you try your best not to let people see the rabbit, but amateurish quote-trimming won't work.

K.


You in particular would make such an admonishment (replying to your question in red above) in order to create a straw man as you did (in blue above) I never made a claim to imagine anything if I had God's power. I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God. Rather than reply directly you created a straw man about my imagination. You are not so clever as you think.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/11/2017 8:25:52 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 8:38:05 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

So what if there are endless natural tragedies that befall humans?

Your compassion for the victims is heart warming.



_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 9:25:46 AM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So what if there are endless natural tragedies that befall humans?

Your compassion for the victims is heart warming.




Victims? Perhaps we're the victims here and when we leave this earth everything is wonderful again.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 10:49:49 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...

The phrase you were looking for is the virtue of humility.

I wasn't aware that you had suddenly gained the power to see inside my mind . . . I wanted to state that theists invariably admit ignorance when pressed to explain why any entity would creates such a silly set of conditions and limitations such as those that apply to humans and that is what I stated.

I wasn't reading your mind, I was correcting your English. Ignorance is not a virtue.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 10:58:29 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will.

Why would someone who doesn't even know whether there is a God be admonishing people not to question his will?

I don't know whether there is a God or not, but while it may be easy for you to imagine how you would do things if you had God's power, it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

I know you try your best not to let people see the rabbit, but amateurish quote-trimming won't work.

You in particular would make such an admonishment (replying to your question in red above) in order to create a straw man as you did (in blue above) I never made a claim to imagine anything if I had God's power. I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God. Rather than reply directly you created a straw man about my imagination. You are not so clever as you think.

I have never made such an admonition, and no twisting of my words will create one. Furthermore, you haven't made a case that natural catastrophes would be inconsistent with a merciful God even if I believed in one.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 11:18:11 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		jumping in briefly to say that everyone would do well to read cs lewis' the problem of pain.

a brief synopsis here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Pain

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 12:37:41 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

jumping in briefly to say that everyone would do well to read cs lewis' the problem of pain.

I read it in college, but it left me cold. Perhaps I'll try it again with older eyes.

My disappointment may have stemmed in part from its being so different from The Screwtape Letters, which I'd loved in high school and remains one of my favorite books.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 2:15:23 PM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		heck by contrast, I loved the premise of the screwtape letters but felt lewis didn't deliver well on it.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 3:51:07 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 3:53:49 PM   
tamaka


Posts: 5079
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?


Maybe God is a sadist... who said he was always merciful? No one.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 4:20:03 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?

I asked you to make a case that natural catastrophes are inconsistent with a merciful God. Don't try to get around the issue by making up your own questions. Whether or not God approves of the suffering is a separate matter. So how about you stop dancing and show us what you've got, besides just an opinion based on nothing more than your own personal notion of how things would be if you were the "merciful God" in question.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/11/2017 4:44:10 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 5:27:50 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?

I asked you to make a case that natural catastrophes are inconsistent with a merciful God. Don't try to get around the issue by making up your own questions. Whether or not God approves of the suffering is a separate matter. So how about you stop dancing and show us what you've got, besides just an opinion based on nothing more than your own personal notion of how things would be if you were the "merciful God" in question.

K.



I never stated an opinion. I simply made an observation. I will repeat it here for the dull-witted:

quote:

I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God.


I don't see why I need to make a case for it. The observation speaks for itself. Surely, you are "aware" of both the first and second parts of my observation, right? You are aware that natural disasters occur? You are aware that there is belief in a merciful God? Why are you confused, Kirata? You are an aware entity, aren't you?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/11/2017 5:34:39 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 5:39:15 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe God is a sadist... who said he was always merciful? No one.


O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

PSALM 118:1-4 (KJV)

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 5:43:10 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		O GOD, whose nature and property is ever to have mercy and to forgive;
Receive our humble petitions;
and though we be tied and bound with the chain of our sins,
yet let the pitifulness of thy great mercy loose us;
for the honour of Jesus Christ, our Mediator and Advocate. Amen.

BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER (1928)

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 180
Page:   <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109