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RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/11/2017 6:55:40 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?

I asked you to make a case that natural catastrophes are inconsistent with a merciful God. Don't try to get around the issue by making up your own questions. Whether or not God approves of the suffering is a separate matter. So how about you stop dancing and show us what you've got, besides just an opinion based on nothing more than your own personal notion of how things would be if you were the "merciful God" in question.

I never stated an opinion. I simply made an observation. I will repeat it here for the dull-witted:

quote:

I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God.

I don't see why I need to make a case for it. The observation speaks for itself.

That is your opinion.

K.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 6:55:55 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm watching this train wreck and the difference between what you're saying and what he's thinking is very clear to me, but I'm at a loss of how to explain it any better. It's an ingrained assumption at his end, and either he's not seeing it, or doesn't want to.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 8:34:12 AM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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I wonder if there might be something of an East/West divide in perspective.

My admittedly modest impression is that the Abrahamic faiths tend to portray God as good and merciful. For us unenlightened mortals, that can be hard to square with parents burying a child, kids growing up in refugee camps or on streets, loved ones imprisoned for years in bodies that slowly and brutally shut down (due to ALS or MSA, for instance), elders whose personalities are erased by dementia, and so forth. The human ache to grasp why a good God allows these may be "naive," but it's also ancient and enduring, from Job and the Psalms to Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People?

What little I know of Eastern religions has given me a (mistaken?) sense that the divine is perceived as more distant--the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao--and not framed within human notions of goodness and mercy. Do I remember rightly that the first noble truth of Buddhism is "Life is suffering"? And I think the Hindu "trinity" includes a Destroyer. I can see how folks rooted in those traditions might be puzzled by--and impatient with--us who ask "But why, God?"

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 8:52:36 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

do you think you have some incredible and marvelous insight into theology and faith such that you've identified some fatal and heretofore undiscovered flaw that's never been addressed before?

look up the word hubris and consider it in light of your post.

if you actually want the answers to those questions as opposed to unjustifiably posturing with them on a forum and [wrongly] taking a lack of response as evidence of your correctness, they exist, go search for them in earnest.

and kirata's not engaging in "mind-reading"--in part, he's correctly categorizing and partially answering the thing you are describing. a little reading on the word "humility" should help you to see that.

or you can just come back without doing any of those things and continue to misunderstand and self-justify.


If one peels back the bluster and bombast that characterises your post, it's evident that you are unable or unwilling to provide an explanation either. Yet for no apparent reason, you sound convinced that one exists ....

I doubt if your purpose was to confirm my observation that believers' claims in this area are notable for : "The absence of even the merest hint of humility or any admission of ignorance [...]. In fact quite the opposite - such claims are characterised by their strident dogmatic tones of absolute conviction and certainty." But your post offers good supporting evidence for my observation.

So in the end your post makes an awful lot of noise while managing to say virtually nothing useful at all.



glasses getting a bit rosy?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 9:05:25 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?

I asked you to make a case that natural catastrophes are inconsistent with a merciful God. Don't try to get around the issue by making up your own questions. Whether or not God approves of the suffering is a separate matter. So how about you stop dancing and show us what you've got, besides just an opinion based on nothing more than your own personal notion of how things would be if you were the "merciful God" in question.

K.



I never stated an opinion. I simply made an observation. I will repeat it here for the dull-witted:

quote:

I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God.


I don't see why I need to make a case for it. The observation speaks for itself. Surely, you are "aware" of both the first and second parts of my observation, right? You are aware that natural disasters occur? You are aware that there is belief in a merciful God? Why are you confused, Kirata? You are an aware entity, aren't you?



From a philosophical perspective nothing could be further from the truth. Your 'interpretation' and construct of your observation is nothing more than your unsupported opinion until you demonstrate its a legitimate/logical joinder of contextual fact. Until then its no different than saying that your radiator sprung a leak which resulted in a flat tire.

Its not a huge leap to understand the distinction between supernatural and natural, or physics and metaphysics if you prefer. Is it?





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/12/2017 9:32:03 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 9:39:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm watching this train wreck and the difference between what you're saying and what he's thinking is very clear to me, but I'm at a loss of how to explain it any better. It's an ingrained assumption at his end, and either he's not seeing it, or doesn't want to.

If you mean to say that the connection between natural catastrophe and the belief some have of a merciful god is an ingrained assumption, we agree. The thing speaks for itself. There is no case to be made. Nor is one necessary. It is simply to be accepted or rejected.

There seem to be a body of believers who defend their God by cancelling the first half of the assumed equation.

Theodicic creationism is primarily concerned with defending God against the charge that he is responsible for natural evil; in other words, it is engaged in the production of a form of theodicy. Rather than accepting modern scientific accounts of natural history and then argue that these are compatible with the goodness of God, however, theodicic creationists conclude that conventional natural histories are not compatible with their view of God. They therefore begin with belief in a benevolent Creator and set out to produce an account of natural history that is compatible with it. Because almost any natural history will do for their purposes if it can shift the burden of responsibility for natural evil from divine to human shoulders, theodicic creationists are a relatively cohesive group, despite deep disagreements about the age of the Earth, the extent and role of Noah's Flood, the extent and role of evolution, and even the nature of the Bible.

SOURCE

So, if that is the stance you or Kirata wish to take, have at it. The Christian God does not measure up to the expectations of his devotees. If you wish to defend him, do so. A crime has been committed. The evidence is all around. The Accused is the only one who has the power to commit such crimes. I am simply reporting the indictment. If you wish to defend him, do so.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 9:50:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Well, it doesn't speak for itself -- it speaks to a narrow assumption about "God."

dc is on to it. Even with his admitted faulty understanding, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism all think of "God" in a completely different context, one in which this question would be meaningless.

No, it doesn't prove they're right. But it does underscore that the question is based on an assumption, versus being a priori true.

So if you want to establish that, you'll need to make the case. Or the two of you will continue to go in meaningless circles.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 11:13:21 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
But it does underscore that the question is based on an assumption, versus being a priori true.


The moment you start discussing God at all, you're making assumptions.

Speculating about motivations or trying to connect certain attributes to the presence of God, even unknowable or mysterious attributes, is the moment you venture into flying spaghetti monster territory, and I'm asking you to prove that my left baby toe isn't causing earthquakes in Japan via some heretofore undiscovered means of telekinesis that even I am not privy to.

Discussing narrow assumptions is probably the only valid way to talk about God.
At least the assumptions exist.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 1:23:24 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, it doesn't speak for itself -- it speaks to a narrow assumption about "God."

dc is on to it. Even with his admitted faulty understanding, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism all think of "God" in a completely different context, one in which this question would be meaningless.

No, it doesn't prove they're right. But it does underscore that the question is based on an assumption, versus being a priori true.

So if you want to establish that, you'll need to make the case. Or the two of you will continue to go in meaningless circles.

In my post #157 I clearly named the Christian God as the subject of my remarks. You are the one who is making assumptions regarding any other gods or any other beliefs. Clearly, you are trying to spread the court wide enough to perv my observations. Good luck with that.

Crimes have been committed. The Christian God is a serial killer and a mass murderer. That is the indictment. Unfortunately, assembling a jury of his peers is problematic.

He also has an evil sense of humor . . . . destroying Lisbon on All Saints' Day, 1755. 10,000–100,000 deaths

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 1:45:05 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I knew this was probably going to be a waste of time.

* shrug *

So you win. Enjoy.

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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:01:54 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Crimes have been committed. The Christian God is a serial killer and a mass murderer. That is the indictment. Unfortunately, assembling a jury of his peers is problematic.

He also has an evil sense of humor . . . . destroying Lisbon on All Saints' Day, 1755. 10,000–100,000 deaths


Honestly, I don't get how anyone could argue against this either. It's probably because over the course of this argument nobody has actually taken the time to define what God is.

The Christian God, and a lot of other Gods as well, are supposedly omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient... God basically does and is everything. So there is nothing preventing God from doing anything, and God does everything. So if something bad happens, God is to blame. Do I have to define what 'bad' is? No I don't, because even if it is merely something that I personally consider bad, it still exists for me and God is responsible. If I eat something I don't enjoy, that's God. If I kill someone, that's God too.

If you say I'm responsible and I choose whether I see something as good or bad because I have free will, then God is not omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient, therefore not God. He can't be different from me, because He IS me in addition to being Himself and everyone and everything else... therefore He is responsible.

The notion of a merciful God is debunked the moment suffering occurs. An unlimited power doesn't need to follow any rules, therefore all suffering is unnecessary... and wouldn't exist if God was merciful.

Is it really necessary to prove that catastrophes cause suffering? I don't think so.


< Message edited by heavyblinker -- 1/12/2017 2:06:30 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:05:47 PM   
Baldrick


Posts: 302
Joined: 1/2/2005
Status: offline 		And here is my 2 cents....

Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion, a notion that became prevalent in intellectual discourse at a time when the very conception of each system of knowledge was far from adequate. The harmony of science and religion is one of the fundamental principles of the Bahá’í Faith, which teaches that religion, without science, soon degenerates into superstition and fanaticism, while science without religion becomes merely the instrument of crude materialism. “Religion,” according to the Bahá’í writings, “is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive.” “Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created things embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment.”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá has described science as the “most noble” of all human virtues and “the discoverer of all things”.3 Science has enabled society to separate fact from conjecture. Further, scientific capabilities—of observing, of measuring, of rigorously testing ideas—have allowed humanity to construct a coherent understanding of the laws and processes governing physical reality, as well as to gain insights into human conduct and the life of society.

Taken together, science and religion provide the fundamental organizing principles by which individuals, communities, and institutions function and evolve. When the material and spiritual dimensions of the life of a community are kept in mind and due attention is given to both scientific and spiritual knowledge, the tendency to reduce human progress to the consumption of goods, services and technological packages is avoided. Scientific knowledge, to take but one simple example, helps the members of a community to analyse the physical and social implications of a given technological proposal—say, its environmental impact—and spiritual insight gives rise to moral imperatives that uphold social harmony and that ensure technology serves the common good. Together, these two sources of knowledge are essential to the liberation of individuals and communities from the traps of ignorance and passivity. They are vital to the advancement of civilization.



< Message edited by Baldrick -- 1/12/2017 2:07:22 PM >

_____________________________

"Give me American supply lines, British planes, German officers and Canadian troops, and I can take over the world." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:05:49 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Crimes have been committed. The Christian God is a serial killer and a mass murderer. That is the indictment.




no kidding? got any proof?






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/12/2017 2:06:14 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:09:06 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

The notion of a merciful God is debunked the moment suffering occurs.




I suppose if you knew all possible outcomes

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:11:02 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Crimes have been committed. The Christian God is a serial killer and a mass murderer. That is the indictment.




no kidding? got any proof?


The proof is the fact that death exists.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:11:30 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I knew this was probably going to be a waste of time.

* shrug *

So you win. Enjoy.



I dpont know abou tthat, you made him do a 180, now he has to prove the God exists that he is claiming does not exist to prove his criminal charges. Me, I wouldnt call that a waste of time but time to gt the popcorn and beer and sit back for the show!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:13:23 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Crimes have been committed. The Christian God is a serial killer and a mass murderer. That is the indictment.




no kidding? got any proof?


The proof is the fact that death exists.



ah so you expect God to accept your standards?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:14:01 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

The notion of a merciful God is debunked the moment suffering occurs.




I suppose if you knew all possible outcomes


God controls every outcome.
God is always responsible for everything.

I don't need to know anything besides that.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:15:19 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
The notion of a merciful God is debunked the moment suffering occurs. An unlimited power doesn't need to follow any rules, therefore all suffering is unnecessary... and wouldn't exist if God was merciful.


like I said, go read cs lewis' the problem of pain.


(in reply to heavyblinker)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? - 1/12/2017 2:16:39 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Crimes have been committed. The Christian God is a serial killer and a mass murderer. That is the indictment.




no kidding? got any proof?


The proof is the fact that death exists.



ah so you expect God to accept your standards?


What are you even talking about?
Death is a thing, therefore God is responsible for all death.

It's that simple.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 200
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