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RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 12:36:16 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoForTheRoad

it is ridiculous for the state to pay for anyone's sex change, let alone a killer's. if the scumbag had penile cancer, or any cancer, oh even a headache, i'd say sure, cut his dick off. What's next? Liposuction, nose jobs, tummy tucks and scrotum de-wrinkling? Maybe penis enlarging, their dicks are probably miniscule. That would be a great use for public money. This boy's cock should have been removed 37 years ago, and fed to the prison guard dogs or the homeless. Balls too, while they're at it, remove the whole damn package----its nothing but junk anyway. (pun intended)

 
first u say its ridiculous for the state for his parts removed - then want the prison to remove his parts.......
 
Well, technically he's getting his pecker/balls cut off.... so ur getting all that u just asked for...... they ARE going to "remove the whole damn package" 
 
So what's the problem about the PUBLIC paid for STATE PRISON doing JUST what u wanted???
 
(BTW...feeding his parts to the homeless is illegal cannibalism .....just say'n.)
 
 



That shows what you know. you obviously are clueless about the procedure. For one it is not just a matter of cutting it off, it is a matter of turning it inside pout and preserving or restoring the nerve endings so orgasm is possible. It make the most complex plastic surgery look like putting a splint on a dog's hind leg.


There are thousands upon thousands of drugs needed, mostly hormones, and many painkillers. This dud can get high.

And then he has to keep that thing stuffed most of the time which is painful and will require those painkillers, or it isn't humane right ? (of course he was humane to his victims, AND, ever hear of the Lindburgh law ?)

There are countless followup visits. That means a specialist going to that prison every so often, which is not cheap.

It is NOT a matter of just cutting it off.

T^T

(in reply to itsSIRtou)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 12:39:20 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why is it that the looney Right gets its jollies by paying out on the powerless?

It's hard to think of a more powerless or marginalised person than a TG prisoner serving a life or very long sentence. But that doesn't stop our resident looney Right-wingers paying out on someone who has no chance of defending themselves or answering back.

Such paragons of courage they are. Heroes indeed.
/sarcasm


He KILLED someone. Or did you miss that ? I think the dead person is a bit more marginalised.


No I didn't miss that. Nor did I miss the fact that Quine appears to have spent 37 years in prison already. I have no idea of the facts of the case, nor do I see how they are relevant to this discussion.

Either the surgery is medically mandated or not. If it is, then it's wholly appropriate for it to be provided to long term prisoners. It the surgery isn't medically mandated, then there's no issue. This is a medical issue not a legal or incarceration related issue.

If society chooses to lock people up for life, then society is obliged to take care of their legitimate medical needs. Simples.


Legitimate medical needs means the person will die if they don't get it. Like another said, what is next, liposuction, boob jobs ? What if some Woman who killed ten people says she did it because her tits are too small ?

T^T

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 12:41:12 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


FR

Just a quick thought, here:

The "state" isn't paying for a fucking thing; taxpayers are. Some are people that vehemently object to this kind of procedure, to begin with.

"Government" pays for NOTHING. WE pay for it.



Michael


ah hey? ..... the last I looked as an American WE give the government Tax money to do OUR bidding.
SOOOOOO WEEEEE are the Government. 
So unless ur ur own island, so are u.   ya know,,,,,,,That whole "We the people" thing...Some are people that vehemently approve of this kind of procedure, to begin with.  Like Me.
I don't fancy it for Myself...but I feel if others strongly identify as another sex than what they were born as, they should be it.


considering ur politics Im not surprised ur in general wanting people  to be unhappy with whom they are.


Will you type right. This is not a cellphone. It's "you're" or your.

T^T

(in reply to itsSIRtou)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 12:46:46 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Either the surgery is medically mandated or not. If it is, then it's wholly appropriate for it to be provided to long term prisoners.

If you read the article, it says that he is depressed and suicidal and believe that gender reassignment will cure him of his depression.

Which is the stupidiest reason to approve this crap! Because NOBODY isn't gonna be suicidal and depressed under life imprisonment without any possibility of parole, which is what he was sentenced to. It is worst than death sentence for some people. It's practically having no life for the rest of your life. Prisoners who wanna commit suicide under such circumstances is perfectly normal. I would be. And gender reassignment won't changed that.

I feel almost like he found a "loophole" to get close to women, being transferred to a female facility. Since he is stuck in prison for life anyway. I bet he doesn't get any female contact and this is the way he found around it.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/9/2017 12:48:45 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 12:56:15 AM   
itsSIRtou


Posts: 836
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoForTheRoad

it is ridiculous for the state to pay for anyone's sex change, let alone a killer's. if the scumbag had penile cancer, or any cancer, oh even a headache, i'd say sure, cut his dick off. What's next? Liposuction, nose jobs, tummy tucks and scrotum de-wrinkling? Maybe penis enlarging, their dicks are probably miniscule. That would be a great use for public money. This boy's cock should have been removed 37 years ago, and fed to the prison guard dogs or the homeless. Balls too, while they're at it, remove the whole damn package----its nothing but junk anyway. (pun intended)

 
first u say its ridiculous for the state for his parts removed - then want the prison to remove his parts.......
 
Well, technically he's getting his pecker/balls cut off.... so ur getting all that u just asked for...... they ARE going to "remove the whole damn package" 
 
So what's the problem about the PUBLIC paid for STATE PRISON doing JUST what u wanted???
 
(BTW...feeding his parts to the homeless is illegal cannibalism .....just say'n.)
 
 



That shows what you know. you obviously are clueless about the procedure. For one it is not just a matter of cutting it off, it is a matter of turning it inside pout and preserving or restoring the nerve endings so orgasm is possible. It make the most complex plastic surgery look like putting a splint on a dog's hind leg.


There are thousands upon thousands of drugs needed, mostly hormones, and many painkillers. This dud can get high.

And then he has to keep that thing stuffed most of the time which is painful and will require those painkillers, or it isn't humane right ? (of course he was humane to his victims, AND, ever hear of the Lindburgh law ?)

There are countless followup visits. That means a specialist going to that prison every so often, which is not cheap.

It is NOT a matter of just cutting it off.

T^T


of course its not THAT simple but

All I was addressing was that for "2-4-the-road" purposes, (mixed up as that was)
he was getting what he wanted.....removal of the killers "junk".by the state prison.....just 37 years later. 



_____________________________

I will allways be a knight, instead of a prince.

What would the internet be like if we couldn't say trump is a moron?

The Republican party complains government doesnt work for people, and then makes darn sure it cannot.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 1:03:29 AM   
itsSIRtou


Posts: 836
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why is it that the looney Right gets its jollies by paying out on the powerless?

It's hard to think of a more powerless or marginalised person than a TG prisoner serving a life or very long sentence. But that doesn't stop our resident looney Right-wingers paying out on someone who has no chance of defending themselves or answering back.

Such paragons of courage they are. Heroes indeed.
/sarcasm


He KILLED someone. Or did you miss that ? I think the dead person is a bit more marginalised.


No I didn't miss that. Nor did I miss the fact that Quine appears to have spent 37 years in prison already. I have no idea of the facts of the case, nor do I see how they are relevant to this discussion.

Either the surgery is medically mandated or not. If it is, then it's wholly appropriate for it to be provided to long term prisoners. It the surgery isn't medically mandated, then there's no issue. This is a medical issue not a legal or incarceration related issue.

If society chooses to lock people up for life, then society is obliged to take care of their legitimate medical needs. Simples.


Legitimate medical needs means the person will die if they don't get it. Like another said, what is next, liposuction, boob jobs ? What if some Woman who killed ten people says she did it because her tits are too small ?

T^T


Let her rot in prison with cheap DD's ......that way she'll cause less issues to the guards....

right next to the new sex change bitch.....

< Message edited by itsSIRtou -- 1/9/2017 1:04:16 AM >

_____________________________

I will allways be a knight, instead of a prince.

What would the internet be like if we couldn't say trump is a moron?

The Republican party complains government doesnt work for people, and then makes darn sure it cannot.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 1:17:49 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If society chooses to lock people up for life, then society is obliged to take care of their legitimate medical needs. Simples.

That, in and of itself, is a commendable stance to take.

However, it is elective surgery, not life-threatening.
He won't die if it isn't done.
And for someone who has attracted a life sentence, he should forego human pleasantries.

If he was leaving prison sometime soon, so he could live his life as a woman, fair enough.
But he isn't.
Part of his life sentence should be to live it as he is.
I don't agree that anyone but himself should pay for it.
Depression or suicidal?? Give him drugs to help - not a sex change.

Tax payers money would be better spent treating those that deserve it, not a life prisoner.
And no, I have no compassion for someone who commits such a heinous crime.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 1:30:43 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Legitimate medical needs means the person will die if they don't get it. Like another said, what is next, liposuction, boob jobs ? What if some Woman who killed ten people says she did it because her tits are too small ?

T^T

Yea, i won't be surprise. Just be suicidal and depressed because your boobs are too small. And get a free breast enlargement sponsored by state while in jail. Why the hell not!

It is medically necessary since it will cure her depression!

I think this might be a cheap way for women to get breast enlargement.

Anyway since UK does do government sponsored breast enlargement for teenage girls with small breasts to help them with their self esteem.

Not surprising a prison who will sponsor gender reassignment will sponsor breast enlargement next!



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/9/2017 1:34:15 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 1:41:58 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		The UK gives free boob jobs to teenagers ? How do they know they are fully developed ?

And isn't it true that after a boob job you can't breastfeed ? I am pretty sure it used to be but today who knows ?

But really, if they are so hung up on breast size I agree they need help, but that doesn't mean a boob job.

T^T

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 1:54:41 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2364692/Josie-Cunningham-5-000-breast-implants-NHS-wants-YOU-pay-remove-them.html
Personally, she claim she has a medical condition that causes her to have small breasts, that's why it was medically necessary for her to get breast implants. NHS approved it.

I laugh so much at that. It's very normal for many chinese women to be like a 32A. Some really only have nipples and barely what you call a breast. Even the smallest bra size won't fit and be too loose. And we don't see that as a medical condition at all.

And gosh, she already have 2 kids before she reach 20.

Here is another 17 yr old who got it sponsored by NHS. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1175230/Teens-having-boob-jobs-NHS-crazy-Anne-Diamond-says-learn-love-flaws.html

Actually, I feel like government sponsored anything should never lead the way on the concept that, people needs to conform to societal concept of physical beauty to lead a normal life. It's just insanity for any government to lead this concept and idea! They should instead fight for more body acceptance and against bullying.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/9/2017 2:10:09 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 3:19:22 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If society chooses to lock people up for life, then society is obliged to take care of their legitimate medical needs. Simples.

That, in and of itself, is a commendable stance to take.

However, it is elective surgery, not life-threatening.
He won't die if it isn't done.
And for someone who has attracted a life sentence, he should forego human pleasantries.

If he was leaving prison sometime soon, so he could live his life as a woman, fair enough.
But he isn't.
Part of his life sentence should be to live it as he is.
I don't agree that anyone but himself should pay for it.
Depression or suicidal?? Give him drugs to help - not a sex change.

Tax payers money would be better spent treating those that deserve it, not a life prisoner.
And no, I have no compassion for someone who commits such a heinous crime.


I understand where you are coming from. However I cannot accept that a person's "legitimate medical needs" can be identified by anyone other than those medical professionals practising in the area. It's their call, not yours or mine. Especially so if there are public funds involved. Otherwise what is the point of seeking out expert opinions?

_____________________________



(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 3:41:36 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I understand where you are coming from. However I cannot accept that a person's "legitimate medical needs" can be identified by anyone other than those medical professionals practising in the area. It's their call, not yours or mine. Especially so if there are public funds involved. Otherwise what is the point of seeking out expert opinions?

You do realise, when it comes to mental health. The problem here, psychologists or psychiatrists SHOULD NOT dictate that plastic surgery is the cure for depression. His illness is depression ya know! Not a physical condition. He is depressed and suicidal. They are changing his gender to cure his depression.

That is so ridiculous and should not be accepted. Because honestly, a transgender in prison will face new challenges again. And I bet this dude is gonna end up still being as depressed and mental AFTER his surgery.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 1/9/2017 3:43:22 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 3:57:50 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If society chooses to lock people up for life, then society is obliged to take care of their legitimate medical needs. Simples.

That, in and of itself, is a commendable stance to take.

However, it is elective surgery, not life-threatening.
He won't die if it isn't done.
And for someone who has attracted a life sentence, he should forego human pleasantries.

If he was leaving prison sometime soon, so he could live his life as a woman, fair enough.
But he isn't.
Part of his life sentence should be to live it as he is.
I don't agree that anyone but himself should pay for it.
Depression or suicidal?? Give him drugs to help - not a sex change.

Tax payers money would be better spent treating those that deserve it, not a life prisoner.
And no, I have no compassion for someone who commits such a heinous crime.


I understand where you are coming from. However I cannot accept that a person's "legitimate medical needs" can be identified by anyone other than those medical professionals practising in the area. It's their call, not yours or mine. Especially so if there are public funds involved. Otherwise what is the point of seeking out expert opinions?

Personally, I don't think any sort of elective, non-life-threatening medical procedure should be funded by anyone other than the person themselves.
I don't think the public purse should be used for such medical purposes.
By all means, fund the medical professionals who make the assessment; but not for the surgery or aftercare.

Want bigger or smaller boobs?? Pay for them.
Want a tummy tuck or a facelift? Pay for it.
Want a sex change? Pay for it.

I don't see that this sort of surgery is a medical need.
A want, yes; but not a 'need'.

There are more than enough people who have suffered with limb loss or other issue through war or disease etc that cannot get adequate treatment beyond the bare basics.
The funds should go to these people first, not for a sex change for a life-prisoner.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 4:08:03 AM   
BoscoX


Posts: 11239
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


FR

Just a quick thought, here:

The "state" isn't paying for a fucking thing; taxpayers are. Some are people that vehemently object to this kind of procedure, to begin with.

"Government" pays for NOTHING. WE pay for it.



Michael


Goes for a whole lot of things.

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 5:50:44 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Now we just need for Americans to wake up and realize they are the government -- unless they choose to let others govern as they will.

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 12:31:46 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why is it that the looney Right gets its jollies by paying out on the powerless?

It's hard to think of a more powerless or marginalised person than a TG prisoner serving a life or very long sentence. But that doesn't stop our resident looney Right-wingers paying out on someone who has no chance of defending themselves or answering back.

Such paragons of courage they are. Heroes indeed.
/sarcasm


He KILLED someone. Or did you miss that ? I think the dead person is a bit more marginalised.


No I didn't miss that. Nor did I miss the fact that Quine appears to have spent 37 years in prison already. I have no idea of the facts of the case, nor do I see how they are relevant to this discussion.

Either the surgery is medically mandated or not. If it is, then it's wholly appropriate for it to be provided to long term prisoners. It the surgery isn't medically mandated, then there's no issue. This is a medical issue not a legal or incarceration related issue.

If society chooses to lock people up for life, then society is obliged to take care of their legitimate medical needs. Simples.


Legitimate medical needs means the person will die if they don't get it. Like another said, what is next, liposuction, boob jobs ? What if some Woman who killed ten people says she did it because her tits are too small ?

T^T

Quine told a prison psychologist who recommended her for the operation that it would bring a "drastic, internal completeness."

She expects it will end a dysfunction and depression so deep that she tried to cut and hang herself in prison five times, most recently in 2014 when she was initially told she could not have the operation.

Quine said she tried unsuccessfully to amputate her genitalia when she was about 19, three years before she went to prison and roughly the same time she tried self-medicating with illegally purchased female hormones.

Given the suicide attempts we should not so easily brush aside the medical needs. Who are we to judge? The OP should step away from his own political agenda and let the Courts and Medical folks decide. All of life is not politics.

BTW, this action resulted from the settlement of a court case Quine brought against the State. The State did not volunteer easily.

STORY

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 3:43:07 PM   
BoscoX


Posts: 11239
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Now we just need for Americans to wake up and realize they are the government -- unless they choose to let others govern as they will.


Government ignores the people and the law far too often, which is why we are going to have a complete outsider moving into the White House in a few days. Why "drain the swamp' turned out to be such a powerful slogan

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 7:15:03 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		And yet appointing his son in law, brings up anti nepotism laws, and certainly isnt draining the swamp, its refilling it.

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 8:51:56 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Now we just need for Americans to wake up and realize they are the government -- unless they choose to let others govern as they will.


Government ignores the people and the law far too often, which is why we are going to have a complete outsider moving into the White House in a few days. Why "drain the swamp' turned out to be such a powerful slogan

So that he can ignore the people and the law at every turn on behalf of the nutsuckers? What swamp is he draining?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: California Funds Killer's Sex Reassignment - 1/9/2017 11:54:50 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why is it that the looney Right gets its jollies by paying out on the powerless?

It's hard to think of a more powerless or marginalised person than a TG prisoner serving a life or very long sentence. But that doesn't stop our resident looney Right-wingers paying out on someone who has no chance of defending themselves or answering back.

Such paragons of courage they are. Heroes indeed.
/sarcasm


He KILLED someone. Or did you miss that ? I think the dead person is a bit more marginalised.


No I didn't miss that. Nor did I miss the fact that Quine appears to have spent 37 years in prison already. I have no idea of the facts of the case, nor do I see how they are relevant to this discussion.

Either the surgery is medically mandated or not. If it is, then it's wholly appropriate for it to be provided to long term prisoners. It the surgery isn't medically mandated, then there's no issue. This is a medical issue not a legal or incarceration related issue.

If society chooses to lock people up for life, then society is obliged to take care of their legitimate medical needs. Simples.


Legitimate medical needs means the person will die if they don't get it. Like another said, what is next, liposuction, boob jobs ? What if some Woman who killed ten people says she did it because her tits are too small ?

T^T

Quine told a prison psychologist who recommended her for the operation that it would bring a "drastic, internal completeness."

She expects it will end a dysfunction and depression so deep that she tried to cut and hang herself in prison five times, most recently in 2014 when she was initially told she could not have the operation.

Quine said she tried unsuccessfully to amputate her genitalia when she was about 19, three years before she went to prison and roughly the same time she tried self-medicating with illegally purchased female hormones.

Given the suicide attempts we should not so easily brush aside the medical needs. Who are we to judge? The OP should step away from his own political agenda and let the Courts and Medical folks decide. All of life is not politics.

BTW, this action resulted from the settlement of a court case Quine brought against the State. The State did not volunteer easily.

STORY


Then let him kill himself. If I was in for life I would, and I don't have these issues. In fact I think anyone who gets sentenced to life should have the option of execution.

T^T

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 40
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