RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (Full Version)

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WickedsDesire -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 4:30:52 PM)

you are not exactly an idiot (far from that) but if I lost you on this one...Do you remember your Plato thread and 3 minute video? Within that video appears the term Obedient mob...now, you probably missed what I typed on that one, and I myself only see about 25-50% of all peoples words here...so i can miss bits.

Names - when you have CFS/ME names are tricky blighters to type correctly....copy paste aside.

Four years how will it end - always in fire with ones like that - scorched earth which is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

Now, my point was obedient mobs are unaware of who they are - herd- sheople - they have many monikers :) and the scorched earth thingy in less than 4 years..and he will burn America - effectively he already has.

Did that help a wee bit?




MrRodgers -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 6:20:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Interestingly, Plato's point about tyranny arising out of democracy also describes Germany in the 1920s and 1930s, which saw Hitler emerge triumphant out of the ruins of the Weimar Republic's failed democracy.

Why some ordinary people - working class and middle class - arrived at the conclusion that a born rich billionaire who has devoted his life to rapacious and avaricious self aggrandisement is the best person to represent their interests and carry out their wishes is a question still awaiting a conclusive answer. Perhaps if more people knew of Plato's views the nightmare might never have happened.

There have been answers. Not big, conclusive answers to be sure but there have been answers. One problem is that many don't want to hear them. From another writer:

If you want to know why Trump won, just look at the response to his winning. The lofty contempt for ‘low information’ Americans. The barely concealed disgust for the rednecks and cretins of ‘flyover’ America who are apparently racist and misogynistic and homophobic. The haughty sneering at the vulgar, moneyed American political system and how it has allowed a wealthy candidate to poison the little people’s mushy, malleable minds. The suggestion that American women, more than 40 per cent of whom are thought to have voted for Trump, suffer from internalised misogyny: that is, they don’t know their own minds, the poor dears. The hysterical, borderline apocalyptic claims that the world is now infernally screwed because ‘our candidate’, the good, pure person, didn’t get in.

This response to Trump’s victory reveals why Trump was victorious. Because those who do politics these days — the political establishment, the media, the academy, the celeb set — are so contemptuous of ordinary people, so hateful of the herd, so convinced that the mass of society cannot be trusted to make political decisions, and now those ordinary people have given their response to such top-down sneering and prejudice.

Oh, the irony of observers denouncing Middle America as a seething hotbed of hatred even as they hatefully libel it a dumb and ugly mob. Having turned America’s ‘left behind’ into the butt of every clever East Coast joke, and the target of every handwringing newspaper article about America’s dark heart and its strange, Bible-toting inhabitants, the political and cultural establishment can’t now be surprised that so many of those people have turned around and said… well, it begins with F and ends with U.

The respectable set’s allergy to Trump is fundamentally an allergy to the idea of democracy itself. To them, Trump’s rise confirms the folly of asking the ignorant, the everyday, the non-subscribers to the New York Times, to decide on important political matters. They’re explicit about this now. In the run-up to election day, big-name commentators wondered out loud if democracy is all it’s cracked up to be. Trump’s ascendancy showed we need better checks and balances on ‘the passions of the mob’, said Andrew Sullivan. We should ‘cool and restrain [these] temporary populist passions’, he said, and refuse to allow ‘feeling, emotion’ to override ‘reasoned deliberation’. The little folks only feel and wail, you see, and it’s down to the grown-ups in the system to think coolly on their behalf.

Elsewhere, a writer for the New York Times asked Americans to consider installing a monarchy, which could rise above the ‘toxic partisanship’ of party politics — that is, above open, swirling, demos-stuffed political debate. In a new book called ‘Against Democracy’ — says it all — Georgetown philosopher Jason Brennan argues for an epistocracy, an ‘aristocracy of the wise’, who might decide political matters for those of us who are ‘low information’ (ie. stupid). This echoes the anti-democratic turn of liberals in the 2000s, when it was argued that daft, Bush-backing Americans increasingly made decisions, ‘not with their linear, logical left brain, but with their lizard, more emotional right brain’, in Arianna Huffington’s words. Such vile contempt for the political, democratic capacities of the ordinary person has been in great evidence following Trump’s win — across Twitter and in apocalypse-tinged instant responses — and it is likely to intensify. Anti-Trump will morph more explicitly into anti-democracy.

If this all sounds familiar, that’s because it’s the same kind of pleb-fearing horror that greeted the Brexit result four months ago. ‘Why elections are bad for democracy’, a headline in the Guardian said. The people are deluded and it is the task of those with ‘reason and expertise’ to ‘un-delude’ them, said a writer for Foreign Policy. ‘What if democracy doesn’t work? What if it never has and never will?’, wondered a pained George Monbiot. Boom. That’s it. The secret and not-so-secret cry of the elites and the experts and the observers over both Brexit and Trump is precisely that: ‘What if democracy doesn’t work?’ It’s not so much Trump they fear as the system that allowed him to get to the White House: that pesky, ridiculous system where we must ask ordinary people — shudder — what they think should happen in the nation.

The anti-Brexit anti-democrats claimed they were merely opposed to using rough, simplistic referendums to decide on huge matters. That kind of democracy is too direct, they said. Yet now they’re raging over the election of Trump via a far more complicated, tempered democratic system. That’s because — and I know this is strong, but I’m sure it’s correct — it is democracy itself that they hate. Not referendums, not Ukip’s blather, not only direct democracy, but democracy as an idea. Against democracy — so many of them are now. It is the engagement of the throng in political life that they fear. It is the people — ordinary, working, non-PhD-holding people — whom they dread and disdain. It is what got Trump to the White House — the right of all adults, even the dumb ones, to decide about politics — that gives them sleepless nights

This nasty, reactionary turn against democracy by so many of the "well-educated" both explains the victory of Trump, which neatly doubles up as a slap in the face of the establishment, and confirms why democracy is more important today than it has ever been. Because it really would be folly, madness in fact, to let an elite that so little understands ordinary people, and in fact loathes them, to run society unilaterally. Now that would be dangerous, more dangerous than Trump.

Amazingly similar to the reaction I've read, heard and actually experienced in real life. That is, toward to left and even the center in general and specifically..to Obama and soon as he was elected and sworn in.




MrRodgers -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 6:26:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The respectable set’s allergy to Trump is fundamentally an allergy to the idea of democracy itself. To them, Trump’s rise confirms the folly of asking the ignorant, the everyday, the non-subscribers to the New York Times, to decide on important political matters. They’re explicit about this now. In the run-up to election day, big-name commentators wondered out loud if democracy is all it’s cracked up to be. Trump’s ascendancy showed we need better checks and balances on ‘the passions of the mob’, said Andrew Sullivan. We should ‘cool and restrain [these] temporary populist passions’, he said, and refuse to allow ‘feeling, emotion’ to override ‘reasoned deliberation’. The little folks only feel and wail, you see, and it’s down to the grown-ups in the system to think coolly on their behalf.

This is an odd argument to advance about the 2016 election, given that a truly democratic result would have led to a new Clinton Administration. HRC, after all, got three million more votes.

Indeed, our right-wing brethren have been quick to tell us that the U.S. is a republic not a democracy, hence our clinging to the Electoral College. The EC specifically does what the Spectator author sneers at: entrust the choice of president to a small, theoretically informed group.

As Hamilton wrote, "It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations" (Federalist 68).

Oh no, you are never to refer to the hallowed Federalist papers to actually describe the function of the EC when the right depends upon it now to win the pres. You are to only cherry pick and deliberately misinterpreter those like justice Kennedy in Citizens United and/or for what suits the right's goals of today.




Real0ne -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 6:42:15 PM)

some people dont think its fair that california and new york can elect the pres for the rest of ud, thankfully we have the EC and it works well.




Real0ne -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 6:47:16 PM)

what super funny is that the us is not a democracy, its a republic with a democratic parliament, and a democratic vote for 'some' elected officials, far from a democracy, people are simply dumb assed parrots that squak whatever authority tells them without thought.




WickedsDesire -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 7:17:56 PM)

Is still awake...I know bad wicked tonight (women mail me- I expect 0)
Are you dumb R1...regale us with ones narrative.
Or are you dumbo and bit of a thicko – heh did you vote for it?




heavyblinker -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 7:31:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

some people dont think its fair that california and new york can elect the pres for the rest of ud, thankfully we have the EC and it works well.


I find it ironic that with all of the right wing frustration with welfare and the value of 'hard work', you still think it's fair that the two states that contribute the most to the US economy don't have a greater say in what direction the country should head in.

Without those two states, America wouldn't be what it is today... the same can't be said for a lot of the Trump states.

I don't know why you think the weak, the stupid and the backwards should have power over the strong, the intelligent and the forward-thinking.
It's degrading... and not in a good way.




dcnovice -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 7:35:57 PM)

quote:

Oh no, you are never to refer to the hallowed Federalist papers to actually describe the function of the EC when the right depends upon it now to win the pres.

Dammit, I always forget that. [;)]




CreativeDominant -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 7:51:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

some people dont think its fair that california and new york can elect the pres for the rest of ud, thankfully we have the EC and it works well.


I find it ironic that with all of the right wing frustration with welfare and the value of 'hard work', you still think it's fair that the two states that contribute the most to the US economy don't have a greater say in what direction the country should head in.

Without those two states, America wouldn't be what it is today... the same can't be said for a lot of the Trump states.

I don't know why you think the weak, the stupid and the backwards should have power over the strong, the intelligent and the forward-thinking.
It's degrading... and not in a good way.
And you just proved the point of the article. Listen to how elitist you sound...California and New York contribute the most so they should get the most say??? Yet, you want to talk about what a tyrannical group those on the right are while you on the left are the fair ones? You want to talk about how democratic you on the left are but you just stated that B.S. about New York and California being entitled to more of a say AND your B.S. about only certain people...strong, intelligent and forward-thinking (code for progressive...left-leaning)...should determine the fate of the whole country? Where's your vaunted democracy in that belief?




dcnovice -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 8:32:43 PM)

FR

Another prophecy fulfilled.

[image]http://i.imgur.com/5Bm5ERq.jpg[/image]




WickedsDesire -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 9:32:21 PM)

we doing memes of pussies?

[image]http://www.collarspace.com/attachments/011917/5A8BFD6A-0A38-41D4-A0B4-902C865BB2044.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.collarspace.com/attachments/011917/5A8BFD6A-0A38-41D4-A0B4-902C865BB2043.jpg[/image]




Real0ne -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/20/2017 11:26:33 PM)

[img]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stufff/inauguration-cartoon-ben-garrison_orig.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stufff/crybullies_ben_garrison.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stufff/obama_internet_cartoon_ben_garrison.jpg[/img]




WickedsDesire -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 1:12:22 AM)

The pussy stirs deep within you R1 Who knew you were a pinko voting bitch and hungry for commie cockbags. I will book you an appointment at the vets and have you fixed so those crazey hormones make you less mental. Some things are simply for the best – like me – not so much you!




CreativeDominant -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 1:16:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Another prophecy fulfilled.

[image]http://i.imgur.com/5Bm5ERq.jpg[/image]
Apparently. If you believe that Trump matches up to the prophetic meanderings of someone who has been described as coarse, racist and disdainful of representative democracy. Everything that those on the left...supposedly...disavow.




WickedsDesire -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 1:53:49 AM)

Is this the shit meme thread - I want cat memes or by baby jesus I will hurl the lot of you into a volcano starting with wicked I heard he has a 40 foot cock women - snaffle him up before its too late -like americamuckshire - oh and he likes tributes of gold and cake and titty picture




DaddySatyr -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 3:52:14 AM)



The poor lefties have been running around for two months, desperately grasping at straws to try to explain why their most recent "anointed one" wasn't simply "installed" into office.

Now, we have this feeble attempt at blaming one of the greatest thinkers in history.

I can explain President Trump for you:

You raise a child in a pretty well-to-do family in a cesspool of liberalism and cronyism (Tammany Hall, etc.) and you keep moving your party more and more to the left so that even this liberally-indoctrinated child (now, adult) starts thinking: "What the fuck are they thinking?"

Then, you run a first-term senator with no experience and absolutely socialistic ideas and that New York-born and bred person just can't take anymore (especially when he's been a staunch capitalist all his life and he's confronted by the ugly face of socialism). A Democrat all his life, he speaks out.

The left sees this "attack" on their "anointed one" and labels Trump as a "Republican" and then, Obama gets a little too big for his britches and humiliates Trump at a National Correspondents' dinner.

A grudge is born and the left learns that it's not always good to poke the bear.

Trump, the marketing master-mind thinks: "Okay, these assholes need to be taken down a peg or two. If they run Hillary in '16, I'll let them believe that I'm a Republican and I'll wipe the floor with the criminal."



Michael




heavyblinker -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 5:36:35 AM)

Well, back to the video... I thought it was pretty insightful, except they really could have done without the smiley faces marching in unison.

Trump hasn't created mindless conformity, he has created/exacerbated chaos and conflict. He's a lowlife who inspires other lowlifes, the clueless, or people who go to great lengths to convince themselves that any GOP leader is who they want... and a very sizable number of people are so aggressively opposed to him that they will never ever fall in line. He's definitely not on the same level of charm as Reagan, who actually made people love conservatism. And Trump's popularity is only going to decline, because his policies are stupid and people are going to get hurt by them. Even if there is another 9/11 I can't see him benefiting from the same sort of popularity bump that W. benefited from, mostly because everyone knows what W. did. If there is another 9/11, Trump's incompetence and laziness will be to blame... and when he tries to go to war and push through more surveillance, echoes of W. will make everyone see right through him.

No matter how much his supporters want to believe they have scored a major victory or 'started a movement', Trump isn't the product of a global shift towards their precious fascism-but-don't-call-it-fascism so much as the product of political instability that could just as easily swing towards the radical left. What he has done and what he could still do is make fascism more palatable to the people, and empowered all of the most terrifying elements of the GOP, pushing the moderates to the fringes... but if he crashes and burns, which is likely, then his 'movement' could disappear pretty quickly.

Honestly, as much as I want to see him impeached right away, letting him create chaos for 4 years might be all it takes to sweep his brand of bullshit into the trash for another generation or so.






jlf1961 -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 6:26:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

More fake news from the BBC

Fortunately, the United States isn't a democracy. We have safeguards in the Republican system that Democrats keep trying to undermine but which are still mostly in place



You are quite correct, the United States is not a democracy, it is a Republic.

And, historically speaking, Republics fall to tyrants more easily than true Democracies.

And again, they fall to one man who "knows what's best for the people."

There is even an historic precedent for this.

Julius Caesar and Rome.

Rome did not start as an Empire, it began as a Republic. It had a senate and even high courts that kept any one man or group from gaining control.

And that Republic lasted about as long as the American republic has lasted.

quote:

Long before Julius Caesar became dictator (from 47-44 B.C.E.) and was subsequently murdered, the Roman Republic had entered a state of rapid decline. The rich had become wealthier and more powerful as a result of Rome's many military successes.

Meanwhile, life for the average Roman seemed to be getting worse. Attempts to reform the situation by two brothers, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus, were met with opposition that eventually resulted in their deaths.


While it is true that the Roman Republic and the US differs in that one of the symptoms of the corruption of the Roman Republic was the numerous slave revolts, and of course the US has no slavery....

Or does it?

Ever heard the term 'slave wages?'

quote:

slave wages: a wage high enough to cover basic living expenses, but not allow for any chance at a change in economic status, or living condition.


quote:

wage slave
ˈwāj ˌslāv/
nouninformal
noun: wage slave; plural noun: wage slaves

a person wholly dependent on income from employment, typically employment of an arduous or menial nature.


Consider those two terms.

Oh yes, "if a person really wanted to, they could go to school and learn something more useful than flipping burgers at McDonalds."

I have heard that basic thought spoken on FOX news, and various middle to far right speakers.

However, those speaking those words do not, or refuse to accept that there are many college graduates who, after taking loans to get a degree, and working part time to get through college, end up with a Bachelor's degree in various high tech fields and end up flipping burgers at 'McDonald's.'

And yes, the 'liberals' are screaming for a higher minimum wage.

And the Corporations and wealthy are screaming that a higher minimum wage means that everything from bread to televisions will cost more due to having to pay workers more money.

Yup, pure and utter BULLSHIT.

The argument that paying workers more means the cost of production increases, then the cost of goods increase sounds good on paper....

Except that the increased pay to workers does not translate to an 'uncovered' expense to producers.

Why?

If ACME widgets has to pay John Poorslob $15 an hour to produce Premium widgets, that means its gonna cost me more to make them.

In one sense, this is true.

Except that expense is NOT carried by the producer.

It would IF the producer had no way to write off that expense, except that the producer does.

Because the producer is just going to have to pay LESS taxes due to increased production cost.

Yup, taxes are paid on PROFITS, not gross income.

PROFITS=GROSS INCOME- PRODUCTION EXPENSES

Consider this, pay higher minimum wages means higher tax revenue and LOWER social welfare costs. Dont have to give food stamps to people who can pay rent AND buy food.

So, in a very real sense, we still have slavery in the US.

The other major symptom of the Roman Republic was corruption in the halls of power.

Senators could be bribed into passing laws that benefited the few or the very wealthy.

Today we have laws against 'bribing' elected officials in Congress.

However, that does not stop some lobby group from buying a few million copies of some congressman's book to put money in his pocket from "outside endeavors."

No, our system is corrupt, our officials are corrupt, and the people are tired of it. In return we elected a man who told us everything we wanted to hear.

America First.

America first sounds great.

It just wont work.




WhoreMods -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 6:53:10 AM)

The real problem with the Right's beloved "bootstraps" argument (the whole "if you're doing shitwork for minimum wage it's your own fault for not getting trained to do a job that actually pays" thing your post alludes to) is that it misses a pretty basic point: even assuming (as you say in many cases incorrectly) that everybody who's spending their working day flipping burgers or shovelling shit isn't qualified to do anything else, and could get a higher paying white collar job if they only go back to school, when they all do and pull themselves up by their bootstraps into a better paying job (because there's obviously enough of those to go around, however many millions of Americans are working subsistence level jobs), then the burgers will go unflipped and the shit will go unshovelled.
The bootstraps thesis is pretty easy to poke holes in, but remains beloved of the right, not because of its Horatio Alger assumptions about hard work and useful skills being rewarded, but as a moral palliative. If somebody's doing shitwork for peanuts or rotting away on welfare in a trailer park, their a lot less embarrassing if you can insist with a straight face that the only reason they're not where you are is because you worked harder than they did, and are smarter than they are. If they're lazy and stupid they don't deserve any better, and so you can demonstrate that you're better than they are.




BoscoX -> RE: Plato explains the rise of Trump (1/21/2017 7:06:54 AM)

The greatest danger to the Republic are fools who demand that government be given the power to choose winners and losers by people voting for bread and circuses

Fools demanding government punish success and reward failure through the tax codes





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