Don't know what to do about this situation

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gnathic -> Don't know what to do about this situation (3/1/2017 7:19:40 PM)
Hi, I have been here before and received a lot of helpful advice so I’m back. :) I recently was contacted online by a Domme who has a sub. I am female and her other sub is male. They have been playing for a number of months (not in a relationship) and then found me. We met for drinks, which went very well, then some time later arranged a play session in a hotel. She had texted me informing me of the date/location as well as how long I’d be needed for (a few hours). Perhaps stupidly, I assumed that as I was only needed ‘a few hours plus downtime’ that everyone would be leaving at that point too. Anyway, so the scene comes (which was amazing, by the way), and during our general chat before getting to the play, it became obvious that it was just me that was expected to leave. Anyway, so the end of the scene came. We sat about chatting for maybe 5-10 minutes before she suggested we go to dinner as she was very hungry, and I was invited along. So we had dinner, and all of that was good. The problem is that, as I started to come out of the high (was still on a rush even after I had got home and am pretty sure I was still somewhat in subspace) I started to feel a bit used, and had a really bad drop that lasted several days. A mutual friend of ours had offered beforehand to meet after the scene for company, and I only later discovered through this friend that the reason I wasn’t invited to stay afterwards was because the other sub ‘likes her for himself’, and that she had asked our mutual friend to invite me to his so that I'd, presumably, have aftercare through him. This basically heightened the negative emotions that I’d been keeping at bay until that moment, and made me feel really low and down for the next few days afterwards. I have played with a couple of couples before (one long-term, and the other are friends of mine) and with both couples I was always made to feel included throughout the entire encounter. I’ve only had a couple of months experience as a sub with an ex Dom, who provided amazing aftercare and who let me stay the night – so good was it that I didn’t even think I needed aftercare. I have also never once had sex with anyone who didn’t invite me to stay – or who I didn’t invite to stay – afterwards. Whilst I had no problem not being invited to stay immediately/quickly with the couple I saw long term (the other couple did immediately invite me to stay) for many reasons (their first threesome, long term relationship, and the original plan/suggestion was that we'd just play once, and it took place in their home and not a hotel we booked), I feel like this situation with them is different (not their first threesome together, they're not in a relationship, and this was presented to me as me joining the other sub, and we booked a hotel). I also feel like I could potentially play a waiting game of them deciding "now would be the right time to invite her", but due to what the sub asked, I'm not convinced this would necessarily ever happen. Please tell me honestly – do I have a right to feel upset about this? I understand that this was just the first scene and that they have several months history of playing together, but I still feel so totally used about the whole situation. I also don't even know how to go about bringing this up. Normally I'm a little too direct, whereas with this particular issue, I feel like I am forcing her into one of two options; invite me or don't. The latter solves nothing, and nor does the former (as being invited under duress is hardly a genuine invitation - kind of like being invited to a party only after you've stomped your feet about not being asked to go).

DesFIP -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/1/2017 7:36:07 PM)
Feelings aren't necessarily facts. You feel how you feel. What you need to do is decide what you need in the future. And be clear about that. So if they call you for a repeat, you should speak up for yourself and tell them that if the offer does not include staying after, you're not interested. TBH, I think that if they want a warm body for a certain period of time followed by that person leaving when told to, then they ought to be hiring a sex worker. What they did was rude in the extreme and I would suggest you decline future invitations by them.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/1/2017 7:37:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Feelings aren't necessarily facts. You feel how you feel. What you need to do is decide what you need in the future. And be clear about that. So if they call you for a repeat, you should speak up for yourself and tell them that if the offer does not include staying after, you're not interested. TBH, I think that if they want a warm body for a certain period of time followed by that person leaving when told to, then they ought to be hiring a sex worker. What they did was rude in the extreme and I would suggest you decline future invitations by them. Thank you DesFIP. I'm not entirely sure what my actions are definitely going to be, but I really, really needed to read that. Thank you.

BathBBW94 -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/1/2017 7:41:48 PM)
I think you have every right to feel used. I think that I would feel very used if I was treated that way by a Dom or a couple. They sound pretty insensitive/uncaring. Sadly, not everyone into D/s understands the importance of respecting and caring for a sub, even after an NSA meet. Stay strong and don't doubt the way you feel, you can't change your emotions about what happened, all you can do is discuss your aftercare needs beforehand with the next person/people you decide to meet to make sure you don't end up feeling this way again. Feel better xxx

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/1/2017 7:44:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BathBBW94 I think you have every right to feel used. I think that I would feel very used if I was treated that way by a Dom or a couple. They sound pretty insensitive/uncaring. Sadly, not everyone into D/s understands the importance of respecting and caring for a sub, even after an NSA meet. Stay strong and don't doubt the way you feel, you can't change your emotions about what happened, all you can do is discuss your aftercare needs beforehand with the next person/people you decide to meet to make sure you don't end up feeling this way again. Feel better xxx Thanks BathBBW94 :) I appreciate your reply. I really wasn't sure whether or not I was reasonable about feeling like this. I think in my mind I've been attempting to justify it by telling myself "it's only one scene! If you kick up about it now you may end up looking clingy/moving too fast etc" The idea of bringing it up with her made me feel like cringing for that reason.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/1/2017 7:55:44 PM)
I also can't understand it from her point of view. I'm in my early twenties and she's in her late forties. I feel protective of women only just a few years younger than me. As a switch, if I had a sub - particularly a younger sub - I just can't imagine having her leave afterwards. I thought that being a Dom/me means you feel protective of your sub, yet this doesn't suggest to me that she feels protective towards me... as her sub, a younger woman leaving at night, or anything else. I'm not writing this out of judgment, but I just can't wrap my head around that. As a Domme, I can't imagine conducting our play like that. Which is frustrating, because she seemed to make a huge effort to ensure I was getting my fair share out of it besides me leaving. It'd almost be easier, in a way, if this had been the issue during the actual scene itself, as I wouldn't feel so disappointed at the idea of not seeing where this goes/continuing to be her sub.

LadyPact -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/1/2017 11:31:05 PM)
I'm going a completely different way. quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic Hi, I have been here before and received a lot of helpful advice so I’m back. :) I recently was contacted online by a Domme who has a sub. I am female and her other sub is male. Pause here. Why do you consider yourself "her sub" or "her OTHER sub just because you got together for play? You met for a single night at a hotel and you've already put yourself into a certain position in her life because of this arrangement? quote: They have been playing for a number of months (not in a relationship) and then found me. We met for drinks, which went very well, then some time later arranged a play session in a hotel. She had texted me informing me of the date/location as well as how long I’d be needed for (a few hours). OK, so everybody was on the same page about where to meet. You had, at least, some kind of idea of how long play would last. I take it everybody was cool with this. quote: Perhaps stupidly, I assumed that as I was only needed ‘a few hours plus downtime’ that everyone would be leaving at that point too. Why would you think this? Was there any indication in the negotiations that you would be included for the entire night? Why couldn't those other two people have plans after the play that didn't include you? Why can't the people who have a long term association continue on without you? Was your staying all night negotiated in advance or did you just suppose that, since the other parties were staying, that you should stay, too. Did you pay a third of the hotel cost so that you were entitled to having a fair share of the room until morning? quote: Anyway, so the scene comes (which was amazing, by the way), and during our general chat before getting to the play, it became obvious that it was just me that was expected to leave. OK. If you were a guest in the hotel room, (meaning you weren't involved with the overnight accommodations) why shouldn't the people who paid for it enjoy the room for the night? quote: Anyway, so the end of the scene came. We sat about chatting for maybe 5-10 minutes before she suggested we go to dinner as she was very hungry, and I was invited along. So we had dinner, and all of that was good. The problem is that, as I started to come out of the high (was still on a rush even after I had got home and am pretty sure I was still somewhat in subspace) I started to feel a bit used, and had a really bad drop that lasted several days. A mutual friend of ours had offered beforehand to meet after the scene for company, and I only later discovered through this friend that the reason I wasn’t invited to stay afterwards was because the other sub ‘likes her for himself’, and that she had asked our mutual friend to invite me to his so that I'd, presumably, have aftercare through him. This basically heightened the negative emotions that I’d been keeping at bay until that moment, and made me feel really low and down for the next few days afterwards. Are you saying that the mutual "friend" had been arranged for your aftercare? Was this part ok with you? What aftercare had you negotiated? In a sense, you were given 'aftercare by proxy'. Did the two people you played with negotiate aftercare? Did you? Something I have to say here. I'd probably have to call bullsh^t about "drop that lasted for days". Not every 'bad feeling' a person has is necessarily drop. Every negative emotion can't be blamed on the brain chemistry that encompasses 'space' and the subsequent drop. (Drop, as I understand it, is about the excess of endorphins to the pleasure/pain centers of the brain, and then the brain's readjustment to 'normal' flow, with the brain interprets as "less".) No. You "felt bad" and you "felt used". This doesn't necessarily equate to drop. They are two separate things. Not every "bad" feeling a bottom experiences after play is automatically drop. quote: I have played with a couple of couples before (one long-term, and the other are friends of mine) and with both couples I was always made to feel included throughout the entire encounter. I’ve only had a couple of months experience as a sub with an ex Dom, who provided amazing aftercare and who let me stay the night – so good was it that I didn’t even think I needed aftercare. All this say to me is that the other people you had encounters with had different methods. Again, I would have to ask you if you negotiated these conditions with the new people? If you didn't, a part of that responsibility is yours. quote: I have also never once had sex with anyone who didn’t invite me to stay – or who I didn’t invite to stay – afterwards. Whilst I had no problem not being invited to stay immediately/quickly with the couple I saw long term (the other couple did immediately invite me to stay) for many reasons (their first threesome, long term relationship, and the original plan/suggestion was that we'd just play once, and it took place in their home and not a hotel we booked), I feel like this situation with them is different (not their first threesome together, they're not in a relationship, and this was presented to me as me joining the other sub, and we booked a hotel). I don't invite everybody to stay. Doesn't matter about my primary relationship or not. If I so much as bring my purse to a hotel, I may not want to sleep in the same room as somebody I barely know. quote: I also feel like I could potentially play a waiting game of them deciding "now would be the right time to invite her", but due to what the sub asked, I'm not convinced this would necessarily ever happen. Why should it? Do you have some kind of on-going agreement that there will be another play session? quote: Please tell me honestly – do I have a right to feel upset about this? I understand that this was just the first scene and that they have several months history of playing together, but I still feel so totally used about the whole situation. You can feel any way that you are feeling. Do you have a "right" to be upset? Probably not, UNLESS there is something specific that you are not saying that is concrete that ASSURES you these people negotiated different terms with you. I'm not hearing anything that, just because you played, these people gave you any assurance that they were guaranteeing your expectations. You went. You had fun. You played. You got out of these people as much as they got out of you. quote: I also don't even know how to go about bringing this up. Normally I'm a little too direct, whereas with this particular issue, I feel like I am forcing her into one of two options; invite me or don't. The latter solves nothing, and nor does the former (as being invited under duress is hardly a genuine invitation - kind of like being invited to a party only after you've stomped your feet about not being asked to go). If the three of you play again, discuss the terms of your overnight accommodations in advance. If you want the expectation of staying overnight, discuss it before you go to play. Be very specific about negotiating how it will be handled. Best of luck.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 2:15:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm going a completely different way. quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic Hi, I have been here before and received a lot of helpful advice so I’m back. :) I recently was contacted online by a Domme who has a sub. I am female and her other sub is male. Pause here. Why do you consider yourself "her sub" or "her OTHER sub just because you got together for play? You met for a single night at a hotel and you've already put yourself into a certain position in her life because of this arrangement? quote: They have been playing for a number of months (not in a relationship) and then found me. We met for drinks, which went very well, then some time later arranged a play session in a hotel. She had texted me informing me of the date/location as well as how long I’d be needed for (a few hours). OK, so everybody was on the same page about where to meet. You had, at least, some kind of idea of how long play would last. I take it everybody was cool with this. quote: Perhaps stupidly, I assumed that as I was only needed ‘a few hours plus downtime’ that everyone would be leaving at that point too. Why would you think this? Was there any indication in the negotiations that you would be included for the entire night? Why couldn't those other two people have plans after the play that didn't include you? Why can't the people who have a long term association continue on without you? Was your staying all night negotiated in advance or did you just suppose that, since the other parties were staying, that you should stay, too. Did you pay a third of the hotel cost so that you were entitled to having a fair share of the room until morning? quote: Anyway, so the scene comes (which was amazing, by the way), and during our general chat before getting to the play, it became obvious that it was just me that was expected to leave. OK. If you were a guest in the hotel room, (meaning you weren't involved with the overnight accommodations) why shouldn't the people who paid for it enjoy the room for the night? quote: Anyway, so the end of the scene came. We sat about chatting for maybe 5-10 minutes before she suggested we go to dinner as she was very hungry, and I was invited along. So we had dinner, and all of that was good. The problem is that, as I started to come out of the high (was still on a rush even after I had got home and am pretty sure I was still somewhat in subspace) I started to feel a bit used, and had a really bad drop that lasted several days. A mutual friend of ours had offered beforehand to meet after the scene for company, and I only later discovered through this friend that the reason I wasn’t invited to stay afterwards was because the other sub ‘likes her for himself’, and that she had asked our mutual friend to invite me to his so that I'd, presumably, have aftercare through him. This basically heightened the negative emotions that I’d been keeping at bay until that moment, and made me feel really low and down for the next few days afterwards. Are you saying that the mutual "friend" had been arranged for your aftercare? Was this part ok with you? What aftercare had you negotiated? In a sense, you were given 'aftercare by proxy'. Did the two people you played with negotiate aftercare? Did you? Something I have to say here. I'd probably have to call bullsh^t about "drop that lasted for days". Not every 'bad feeling' a person has is necessarily drop. Every negative emotion can't be blamed on the brain chemistry that encompasses 'space' and the subsequent drop. (Drop, as I understand it, is about the excess of endorphins to the pleasure/pain centers of the brain, and then the brain's readjustment to 'normal' flow, with the brain interprets as "less".) No. You "felt bad" and you "felt used". This doesn't necessarily equate to drop. They are two separate things. Not every "bad" feeling a bottom experiences after play is automatically drop. quote: I have played with a couple of couples before (one long-term, and the other are friends of mine) and with both couples I was always made to feel included throughout the entire encounter. I’ve only had a couple of months experience as a sub with an ex Dom, who provided amazing aftercare and who let me stay the night – so good was it that I didn’t even think I needed aftercare. All this say to me is that the other people you had encounters with had different methods. Again, I would have to ask you if you negotiated these conditions with the new people? If you didn't, a part of that responsibility is yours. quote: I have also never once had sex with anyone who didn’t invite me to stay – or who I didn’t invite to stay – afterwards. Whilst I had no problem not being invited to stay immediately/quickly with the couple I saw long term (the other couple did immediately invite me to stay) for many reasons (their first threesome, long term relationship, and the original plan/suggestion was that we'd just play once, and it took place in their home and not a hotel we booked), I feel like this situation with them is different (not their first threesome together, they're not in a relationship, and this was presented to me as me joining the other sub, and we booked a hotel). I don't invite everybody to stay. Doesn't matter about my primary relationship or not. If I so much as bring my purse to a hotel, I may not want to sleep in the same room as somebody I barely know. quote: I also feel like I could potentially play a waiting game of them deciding "now would be the right time to invite her", but due to what the sub asked, I'm not convinced this would necessarily ever happen. Why should it? Do you have some kind of on-going agreement that there will be another play session? quote: Please tell me honestly – do I have a right to feel upset about this? I understand that this was just the first scene and that they have several months history of playing together, but I still feel so totally used about the whole situation. You can feel any way that you are feeling. Do you have a "right" to be upset? Probably not, UNLESS there is something specific that you are not saying that is concrete that ASSURES you these people negotiated different terms with you. I'm not hearing anything that, just because you played, these people gave you any assurance that they were guaranteeing your expectations. You went. You had fun. You played. You got out of these people as much as they got out of you. quote: I also don't even know how to go about bringing this up. Normally I'm a little too direct, whereas with this particular issue, I feel like I am forcing her into one of two options; invite me or don't. The latter solves nothing, and nor does the former (as being invited under duress is hardly a genuine invitation - kind of like being invited to a party only after you've stomped your feet about not being asked to go). If the three of you play again, discuss the terms of your overnight accommodations in advance. If you want the expectation of staying overnight, discuss it before you go to play. Be very specific about negotiating how it will be handled. Best of luck. Hi LadyPact, thanks for your response. I should probably first address your question near the end of your reply, as I think that you have the impression that this was only arranged as a one-night thing. We had specifically - prior the first scene - discussed that she was looking for a regular, long-term sub which is how she first offered the situation to me. It wasn't a NSA arrangement. If it had been, I wouldn't have a problem with this. Regarding, "why do you call yourself her sub", I do so because that is how she refers to me (with the mutual friend and in each other's company), I am expected to call her Mistress, I have signed a contract, she asked for exclusivity, and we have continued this dynamic beyond the first scene. She stated what she was looking for - a lomg term sub - calls me her sub, and that is why I call myself her sub too. Regarding your questions about why should I have stayed etc - I suppose that I felt this way simply because of the dynamic that we had beenn arranging. If she wants to be sub and Mistress with me (as she is with the other sub) then I would presume that she is interested in spending time with me not simply having sex with me. I thought I would be treated like the other sub, and that she was interested in building up a Mistress/sub dynamic, as this is what she was asking for. As for paying for the hotel, I had offered twice for my share (first time she avoided the question, and then the second she just said she didn't want it) - I agree with you on this point though. But I didn't realise by this point that I wasn't being included in a part of the night. I think the friend was, but can only guess because we never had a discussion about aftercare. I only know that she asked him to offer me a place to go afterwards, and thought it was probably that as I have read about third party aftercare before. No I didn't negotiate aftercare and nor did they - I think this was because I had assumed (rightly or wrongly) that I would be involved in everything they were, so I thought I wouldn't need to, as I would be getting what the other sub was getting. I appreciate that I definitely need to discuss this with anyone I play with in the future, so I have learnt my lesson on that. I labelled what I felt afterwards because I felt no different from start to finish, and I have read that for some people, drop does last several days. I suppose though, whether drop or not, it doesn't change the fact I felt like that and didn't like it, so I need to sort this out. Regarding my previous partners, staying over wasn't negotiated, it just happened that way (vanilla encounters). My ex Dom was big on aftercare and was quite verbal in all the ways he attempted to ease us back into reality. Yes, we do have an ongoing arrangement that there will be future scenes. This was always discussed, and we have been verbal in being interested in each other before, during and after. It was very much her that pursued me to be her sub. This was never arranged as a one-time, NSA thing.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 5:04:01 AM)
Just to say: This wasn't meant to be a NSA meet. This is meant to be an ongoing dynamic, and was proposed to me right from the very start as me being a new sub to join her and the sub, and explicitly expressed as them wanting this as play as well as beyond that. This was never pursued as a hook up, and the power dynamic has continued since that time (I signed a contract, discussed exclusivity, and so on - something that she was driving force behind, although obviously I've matched her enthusiasm and willingness). Sorry, I should've been more clear on that/hope that makes more sense.

PantyhosedDomina -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 5:48:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic I also can't understand it from her point of view. I'm in my early twenties and she's in her late forties. I feel protective of women only just a few years younger than me. As a switch, if I had a sub - particularly a younger sub - I just can't imagine having her leave afterwards. ...yet this doesn't suggest to me that she feels protective towards me... as her sub, a younger woman leaving at night,.... she seemed to make a huge effort to ensure I was getting my fair share out of it besides me leaving. .. She wanted you to participate in an enthusiastic manner cos she needed that. She did not care for you're wellbeing or what happened to you afterwards including you're personal safety. This is the factual truth that I can see based on the info you have provided. I am truly sorry for you're pain. Try to be more discerning. Have confidence to ask questions in advance so you have factual info regarding how a scene will play out before , during and after so you are prepared and you have you're own needs met and you can make you're own risk plan for things that are not ok for you etc. Re the lady and her male sub - try to forget them. They have no control over you're life or future and so should not take you're emotional energy other than that they have provided you with further wisdom as you continue you're journey in life. May be best to learn from this experience and not let something like this occur again so you don't get upset like this again. Being used in a way we are unprepared for and are not in agreement with is never nice. Stay happy and lovely :)

PantyhosedDomina -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 5:51:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BathBBW94 I think you have every right to feel used. I think that I would feel very used if I was treated that way by a Dom or a couple. They sound pretty insensitive/uncaring. Sadly, not everyone into D/s understands the importance of respecting and caring for a sub, even after an NSA meet. Stay strong and don't doubt the way you feel, you can't change your emotions about what happened, all you can do is discuss your aftercare needs beforehand with the next person/people you decide to meet to make sure you don't end up feeling this way again. Feel better xxx I totally agree with what lovely BathBBW94 has stated. Profound and spot on sensible advice. Stay lovely :)

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 6:24:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PantyhosedDomina quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic I also can't understand it from her point of view. I'm in my early twenties and she's in her late forties. I feel protective of women only just a few years younger than me. As a switch, if I had a sub - particularly a younger sub - I just can't imagine having her leave afterwards. ...yet this doesn't suggest to me that she feels protective towards me... as her sub, a younger woman leaving at night,.... she seemed to make a huge effort to ensure I was getting my fair share out of it besides me leaving. .. She wanted you to participate in an enthusiastic manner cos she needed that. She did not care for you're wellbeing or what happened to you afterwards including you're personal safety. This is the factual truth that I can see based on the info you have provided. I am truly sorry for you're pain. Try to be more discerning. Have confidence to ask questions in advance so you have factual info regarding how a scene will play out before , during and after so you are prepared and you have you're own needs met and you can make you're own risk plan for things that are not ok for you etc. Re the lady and her male sub - try to forget them. They have no control over you're life or future and so should not take you're emotional energy other than that they have provided you with further wisdom as you continue you're journey in life. May be best to learn from this experience and not let something like this occur again so you don't get upset like this again. Being used in a way we are unprepared for and are not in agreement with is never nice. Stay happy and lovely :) Hi PantyhosedDomina, thanks for your response. While I do think it was certainly to her advantage to have me be enthusiastic and doubt-free, I do feel convinced that she did care genuinely about my enjoyment of the scene itself. We have discussed specific things we would like to do in our next scene, and we have added each other on social media (so I have no doubt she is sincere in her interest to see me again and play). She has also sent me photos of herself since- intimate ones showing her face) so I highly doubt she'd do any of this if all the precursory and in-scene stuff was just to get me to play once, especially as this has occurred afterwards. My main concern is a repeat of this if we have a second time where I am sent away. I would like to stay as, besides aftercare, I would simply like us to get to know each other better and like each other outside of play..like she does with her sub. Thank you so much for your advice, I will certainly be remembering it. I think, whether it goes well or not with them the next time we arrange a scene (as I will be negotiating that), I will hopefully at least be better equipped to express what I need going into a scene and maybe prevent a worse event further down the road. :) When I bring it up with her, I will be negotiating what I need and so we can either take the situation or leave it, from both sides. Funny thing is, I volunteer the following afternoon and so wouldn't even be able to stay very long anyway. If they invited me, they'd still have the following day mostly together - as I know they did last time. But at least if they had asked, I wouldn't have left feeling used.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 6:28:47 AM)
Thank you, stay lovely too :) I appreciate your help.

LadyPact -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 9:03:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic Hi LadyPact, thanks for your response. I should probably first address your question near the end of your reply, as I think that you have the impression that this was only arranged as a one-night thing. We had specifically - prior the first scene - discussed that she was looking for a regular, long-term sub which is how she first offered the situation to me. It wasn't a NSA arrangement. If it had been, I wouldn't have a problem with this. Regarding, "why do you call yourself her sub", I do so because that is how she refers to me (with the mutual friend and in each other's company), I am expected to call her Mistress, I have signed a contract, she asked for exclusivity, and we have continued this dynamic beyond the first scene. She stated what she was looking for - a lomg term sub - calls me her sub, and that is why I call myself her sub too. Ah, ok. This makes a little more sense. However, it's more reason for you to get a better idea of how things are going to go if you are going to have play where the other person is present. You may not be in the position where you are considered the primary or equal to the other sub involved if this is being seen from a hierarchy or longevity factor. In other words, they may already have their agreement between the two of them that he's the person who gets to spend the night with her if they involve another person. What their terms are together, they arrived at before you ever showed up, so you might want to ask if this is the status quo or not. quote: Regarding your questions about why should I have stayed etc - I suppose that I felt this way simply because of the dynamic that we had beenn arranging. If she wants to be sub and Mistress with me (as she is with the other sub) then I would presume that she is interested in spending time with me not simply having sex with me. I thought I would be treated like the other sub, and that she was interested in building up a Mistress/sub dynamic, as this is what she was asking for. As for paying for the hotel, I had offered twice for my share (first time she avoided the question, and then the second she just said she didn't want it) - I agree with you on this point though. But I didn't realise by this point that I wasn't being included in a part of the night. I'd have totally been with you if you had paid for part of the room and then you weren't able to stay. I probably can't say I'm fully with you in the presumption that you should be given equal privileges as the other sub. You mentioned very specifically that they had been seeing each other/playing together longer than you've been involved. I'm interpreting this as he's the established play partner and on the other hand, you're just starting your involvement with this woman. You're not necessarily going to be treated the same because your stage of relationship isn't the same. quote: I think the friend was, but can only guess because we never had a discussion about aftercare. I only know that she asked him to offer me a place to go afterwards, and thought it was probably that as I have read about third party aftercare before. No I didn't negotiate aftercare and nor did they - I think this was because I had assumed (rightly or wrongly) that I would be involved in everything they were, so I thought I wouldn't need to, as I would be getting what the other sub was getting. I appreciate that I definitely need to discuss this with anyone I play with in the future, so I have learnt my lesson on that. A part of where I'm seeing that this went wrong (if you could call it that) was that you had unspoken expectations about joining the other two for the entire night. Something that was obviously not in their plans, as they had prearranged for you to stay with the friend. The old saying goes "an expectation is resentment waiting to happen". The term resentment may be strong language for the situation but the general concept works. The hang up here is all of the unspoken expectations and assumptions, rather than what you actually talked about. quote: I labelled what I felt afterwards because I felt no different from start to finish, and I have read that for some people, drop does last several days. I suppose though, whether drop or not, it doesn't change the fact I felt like that and didn't like it, so I need to sort this out. I've never seen anybody's drop actually last for days, even after long term extreme pain, confinement, mind f^cks, hard core degradation, etc. Drop tends to be more about the body and the mind going back to 'normal' after whatever was engaged in that changed elevated levels of endorphins, etc that created 'space'. Basically, the brain got tricked into getting high. The hang up with this is the brain doesn't really understand that it's just going back to normal, interprets the lack of abundance of feel good chemicals as "less," and the result can be drop. (This is also why some of the advice for drop can be the same things that stimulate endorphin flow. (Raise your blood sugar, relaxation methods, pleasant smells, etc.) Depending on the play, and the person, some folks will get drop a day or two later because even though space has subsided, the brain hasn't really processed the over abundance yet, so the brain hasn't really caught up to the 'less' part. In my personal experience, women drop more often than men and if somebody is going to experience drop in the one to three day later time frame, it's most likely to be a woman. Men, if they are going to experience drop, are way more likely to have it hit right away or within the first 24 hours. Why this is, I really couldn't say but I think it would be a really cool thing to know and understand on a deeper level. What's more common tend to be the folks who misinterpret normal, human emotions with "I played recently" or "it's something related to the play, so it must be drop" kind of things. In my opinion, this is a mistake. Something you would have felt bad about anyway still would have felt bad without the BDSM element involved. Your situation is a perfect example of this, cause here you are, groovin' along in this new, budding relationship with this woman who (to you) disappointed you about the sleep over thing, so you probably would have felt bad about this if there was kink involved or not. (If this encounter had been vanilla, and you thought you had a higher relationship status and found out you didn't, you probably would have still felt bad.) quote: Regarding my previous partners, staying over wasn't negotiated, it just happened that way (vanilla encounters). My ex Dom was big on aftercare and was quite verbal in all the ways he attempted to ease us back into reality. In my opinion, 'easing back to reality' is proportionate to the activity involved. A few hours of bumping uglies doesn't really necessitate that. OK, so your experience is that everybody you've ever had sex with meant a sleep over. What I'm asking from you is to understand that not everybody does that. Sex is fun but it doesn't mean that everybody thinks they are beholden to an eight hour shared space just because they shared orgasms. quote: Yes, we do have an ongoing arrangement that there will be future scenes. This was always discussed, and we have been verbal in being interested in each other before, during and after. It was very much her that pursued me to be her sub. This was never arranged as a one-time, NSA thing. I'm going to take your word on this. I'm not aware of the intricacies.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 9:26:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: gnathic Hi LadyPact, thanks for your response. I should probably first address your question near the end of your reply, as I think that you have the impression that this was only arranged as a one-night thing. We had specifically - prior the first scene - discussed that she was looking for a regular, long-term sub which is how she first offered the situation to me. It wasn't a NSA arrangement. If it had been, I wouldn't have a problem with this. Regarding, "why do you call yourself her sub", I do so because that is how she refers to me (with the mutual friend and in each other's company), I am expected to call her Mistress, I have signed a contract, she asked for exclusivity, and we have continued this dynamic beyond the first scene. She stated what she was looking for - a lomg term sub - calls me her sub, and that is why I call myself her sub too. Ah, ok. This makes a little more sense. However, it's more reason for you to get a better idea of how things are going to go if you are going to have play where the other person is present. You may not be in the position where you are considered the primary or equal to the other sub involved if this is being seen from a hierarchy or longevity factor. In other words, they may already have their agreement between the two of them that he's the person who gets to spend the night with her if they involve another person. What their terms are together, they arrived at before you ever showed up, so you might want to ask if this is the status quo or not. quote: Regarding your questions about why should I have stayed etc - I suppose that I felt this way simply because of the dynamic that we had beenn arranging. If she wants to be sub and Mistress with me (as she is with the other sub) then I would presume that she is interested in spending time with me not simply having sex with me. I thought I would be treated like the other sub, and that she was interested in building up a Mistress/sub dynamic, as this is what she was asking for. As for paying for the hotel, I had offered twice for my share (first time she avoided the question, and then the second she just said she didn't want it) - I agree with you on this point though. But I didn't realise by this point that I wasn't being included in a part of the night. I'd have totally been with you if you had paid for part of the room and then you weren't able to stay. I probably can't say I'm fully with you in the presumption that you should be given equal privileges as the other sub. You mentioned very specifically that they had been seeing each other/playing together longer than you've been involved. I'm interpreting this as he's the established play partner and on the other hand, you're just starting your involvement with this woman. You're not necessarily going to be treated the same because your stage of relationship isn't the same. quote: I think the friend was, but can only guess because we never had a discussion about aftercare. I only know that she asked him to offer me a place to go afterwards, and thought it was probably that as I have read about third party aftercare before. No I didn't negotiate aftercare and nor did they - I think this was because I had assumed (rightly or wrongly) that I would be involved in everything they were, so I thought I wouldn't need to, as I would be getting what the other sub was getting. I appreciate that I definitely need to discuss this with anyone I play with in the future, so I have learnt my lesson on that. A part of where I'm seeing that this went wrong (if you could call it that) was that you had unspoken expectations about joining the other two for the entire night. Something that was obviously not in their plans, as they had prearranged for you to stay with the friend. The old saying goes "an expectation is resentment waiting to happen". The term resentment may be strong language for the situation but the general concept works. The hang up here is all of the unspoken expectations and assumptions, rather than what you actually talked about. quote: I labelled what I felt afterwards because I felt no different from start to finish, and I have read that for some people, drop does last several days. I suppose though, whether drop or not, it doesn't change the fact I felt like that and didn't like it, so I need to sort this out. I've never seen anybody's drop actually last for days, even after long term extreme pain, confinement, mind f^cks, hard core degradation, etc. Drop tends to be more about the body and the mind going back to 'normal' after whatever was engaged in that changed elevated levels of endorphins, etc that created 'space'. Basically, the brain got tricked into getting high. The hang up with this is the brain doesn't really understand that it's just going back to normal, interprets the lack of abundance of feel good chemicals as "less," and the result can be drop. (This is also why some of the advice for drop can be the same things that stimulate endorphin flow. (Raise your blood sugar, relaxation methods, pleasant smells, etc.) Depending on the play, and the person, some folks will get drop a day or two later because even though space has subsided, the brain hasn't really processed the over abundance yet, so the brain hasn't really caught up to the 'less' part. In my personal experience, women drop more often than men and if somebody is going to experience drop in the one to three day later time frame, it's most likely to be a woman. Men, if they are going to experience drop, are way more likely to have it hit right away or within the first 24 hours. Why this is, I really couldn't say but I think it would be a really cool thing to know and understand on a deeper level. What's more common tend to be the folks who misinterpret normal, human emotions with "I played recently" or "it's something related to the play, so it must be drop" kind of things. In my opinion, this is a mistake. Something you would have felt bad about anyway still would have felt bad without the BDSM element involved. Your situation is a perfect example of this, cause here you are, groovin' along in this new, budding relationship with this woman who (to you) disappointed you about the sleep over thing, so you probably would have felt bad about this if there was kink involved or not. (If this encounter had been vanilla, and you thought you had a higher relationship status and found out you didn't, you probably would have still felt bad.) quote: Regarding my previous partners, staying over wasn't negotiated, it just happened that way (vanilla encounters). My ex Dom was big on aftercare and was quite verbal in all the ways he attempted to ease us back into reality. In my opinion, 'easing back to reality' is proportionate to the activity involved. A few hours of bumping uglies doesn't really necessitate that. OK, so your experience is that everybody you've ever had sex with meant a sleep over. What I'm asking from you is to understand that not everybody does that. Sex is fun but it doesn't mean that everybody thinks they are beholden to an eight hour shared space just because they shared orgasms. quote: Yes, we do have an ongoing arrangement that there will be future scenes. This was always discussed, and we have been verbal in being interested in each other before, during and after. It was very much her that pursued me to be her sub. This was never arranged as a one-time, NSA thing. I'm going to take your word on this. I'm not aware of the intricacies. Thank you, yes, that is exactly what I think the situation probably is. Perhaps it is unfair of me, but I can't help but feel a little resentful of this because I know that if I were the sub inviting a third in, that I would only agree to this if I were OK with sharing completely. My ex Dom and I spoke about potentially inviting a long term third after we had played 1:1 a little more, and I can't imagine asking her to be sent home once we played. I personally would only agree to such an arrangement if I felt ok not cherry-picking the good parts for myself and then disregarding the needs of the other person. Perhaps you disagree, but I personally think that is a bit selfish, especially given that drop can occur at the end of a scene. Yes, I think that is exactly why I was prevented from paying. I just wish that I had realised the bigger picture and hadn't assumed that none of us were staying. Or that she had simply explained that, for now at least, I would need to leave afterwards as this is their time. I would have appreciated that honesty and her being direct and upfront. Whereas I felt that she basically avoided that whole conversation. It wasn't her fault that I didn't twig the implications of what was happening, but I still think that it would have been a better way of handling it to have actually brought it up with me rather than side-step the issue. Regarding the sub heirarchy, I agree to a degree. I agree that of course he is more important to her, of course. When I have played with those couples before, I obviously realised they were more important to each other than I was to them. But I personally think that if you choose to involve a regular third, there are ways of going about it that don't involve taking the good bits for yourself and disregarding the other person. I appreciate that you probably would disagree with this, but I personally think that when you're dealing with a person, there are going to be both benefits and costs to such a situation, and it is unfair to just take the benefits. You're dealing with a person, after all. For want of a better analogy, I think it's life taking a job as a schoolteacher because you love kids and then refusing to be present at parent evenings because you dislike the parents. I'm basically just being used for sex at that point..even though they presented this very explicitly as wanting to involve me both inside and outside the bedroom. Bedroom only wasn't what I agreed to, but at this point, there's nothing to suggest that this isn't what they are actually gunning for. And I don't think that is fair, I think it's sneaky if this is their plan for the long-term. I agree on your following two paragraphs. I see what you mean regarding drop, I think you're right. I would have felt bad whether I got drop or not (though it probably didn't help). Thanks for the information on that topic. Is there a specific way that you think I could bring this up with her? I'm thinking that when she arranges the next scene and either outlines the timeframe I'm expected for or simply doesn't mention it that I may have to just come straight out and ask her if this is going to be the regular set-up and that I probably need more than that. But then it gets to the twisting-her-arm thing that I mentioned in my opening.

DesFIP -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 10:45:32 AM)
It sounds like they're looking for a unicorn to fulfill their needs without bothering to think about your needs. Even if you negotiate to stay longer in future, I think it will be given grudgingly and you'll still feel unwanted. I don't get the feeling that they're ready to open their relationship.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 11:30:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP It sounds like they're looking for a unicorn to fulfill their needs without bothering to think about your needs. Even if you negotiate to stay longer in future, I think it will be given grudgingly and you'll still feel unwanted. I don't get the feeling that they're ready to open their relationship. I strongly suspect you are right. To be honest, when I actually imagine having that text come through regarding the plan, I think this is really going to instantly make me think "Hell no am I doing this". In other words, if she doesn't invite me beyond the sex bit, I'm not even going to bother negotiating, and instead am just going to explain that this situation is not what she told me it would be, and that I'm not interested (I'll put it nicer than that). I really hope that she does plan on including me in our second scene, as like I said, the scene was incredible... But I can't let someone sneakily use me like that. It's frustrating... I once went on a date with a guy with the body of a bodybuilder. Absolutely gorgeous. I only met him with the hopes of a casual encounter, but he expressed interest in me and I thought, "hmm... You're hot and you seem nice, let's actually see how it goes". As time progressed, it quickly became apparent he was just saying what he thought I wanted to hear to get in my pants, so obviously I dropped him. If he had just been open about what he wanted from me and honest, I would probably have given him what he wanted. I enjoy casual sex, but only if everyone is being upfront. If she had told me upfront that she only wanted me for the sex part and framed it like "How would you feel about that? Being our toy? We can't offer more than that, but if this interests you, maybe we could have some fun" I probably would have considered it. For me, honesty and being direct is everything and changes the entire situation. I'm just hoping that she does indicate that the second scene will be different, but there isn't anything as yet to suggest this is the case.

longwayhome -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 12:19:51 PM)
I can understand entirely how you feel. That is not to minimise anything LadyPact has said about assumptions, expectations and being explicit. It is incumbent on all parties to play to be explicit about arrangements and expectations, and that takes more care when there are three people involved. Yes no-one should make assumptions but, for me in any case, it isn't enough just to assume that everyone knows what the deal is. There's not necessarily anything wrong with having a scene in which somebody leaves and other people stay. From that point of view you don't have a "right" to be upset. However letting something happen by omission, expecting that the other person will have read the signs correctly, is as much of a misjudgement as your expectation that you would be part of the play and the after-play. Just as you should not necessarily have expected to stay, the others should not have expected that you had taken the hint about not staying, especially as there were other "hints" about a longer term association. In my head, your feelings don't come from an innate expectation, as you can appreciate both the joys of NSA and of a more structured relationship. They come from a mismatch of communication and expectation. In a perfect world all of you would have been more explicit about the expectations here, especially as it was your first time with them. In other words, while I can understand what happened and don't think there is anything essentially wrong with the whole thing going down as it did, the responsibility to be explicit lies with all of you and not just with you. You may have been a bit naive in terms of your emotional investment and your expectations, but to say that is the whole story would be a bit harsh. The other parties could equally have been more explicit. The only way forward (and I am only reflecting your own feelings back to you here) is for you to decide what you want from the situation, express that, and then, based on what you are told, make a decision about whether this is what you want.

longwayhome -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 12:26:21 PM)
At the end of the day, it is okay to ask you to leave and okay to put another person first, but from my point of view anyway, you should always make sure that the third person is okay with that, whether it is NSA or part of an ongoing arrangement or relationship. If an arrangement was indeed made for a third party to make sure you were okay, I would prefer someone checked that with me first rather than just doing it.

gnathic -> RE: Don't know what to do about this situation (3/2/2017 12:32:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome I can understand entirely how you feel. That is not to minimise anything LadyPact has said about assumptions, expectations and being explicit. It is incumbent on all parties to play to be explicit about arrangements and expectations, and that takes more care when there are three people involved. Yes no-one should make assumptions but, for me in any case, it isn't enough just to assume that everyone knows what the deal is. There's not necessarily anything wrong with having a scene in which somebody leaves and other people stay. From that point of view you don't have a "right" to be upset. However letting something happen by omission, expecting that the other person will have read the signs correctly, is as much of a misjudgement as your expectation that you would be part of the play and the after-play. Just as you should not necessarily have expected to stay, the others should not have expected that you had taken the hint about not staying, especially as there were other "hints" about a longer term association. In my head, your feelings don't come from an innate expectation, as you can appreciate both the joys of NSA and of a more structured relationship. They come from a mismatch of communication and expectation. In a perfect world all of you would have been more explicit about the expectations here, especially as it was your first time with them. In other words, while I can understand what happened and don't think there is anything essentially wrong with the whole thing going down as it did, the responsibility to be explicit lies with all of you and not just with you. You may have been a bit naive in terms of your emotional investment and your expectations, but to say that is the whole story would be a bit harsh. The other parties could equally have been more explicit. The only way forward (and I am only reflecting your own feelings back to you here) is for you to decide what you want from the situation, express that, and then, based on what you are told, make a decision about whether this is what you want. I agree with everything you have just said :) Thanks longwayhome. I particularly agree with what you said regarding being explicit. I think now - since having made the thread and so consciously outlining my thoughts/concerns - I am wondering about whether this was conducted deliberately like this. I don't think they meant for me not to get the hint about not staying, but I do certainly wonder if they very deliberately framed it as bedroom-and-friends rather than bedroom-only because they knew they were far more likely to find a female third that way. Everyone knows unicorns are hard to find, so I suppose it is tactical to express an interest in more to kind of hook one in... and then fling it out to sea once it's landed in your boat and you're finished with it. I hope I'm wrong on that though. I keep trying to remind myself that maybe, after the success of the first scene and now that we have established we fit together in a play scene, that they will have discussed inviting me from now on now that the first "test" scene has happened. Also, I feel a bit annoyed because, had the mutual friend not told me that the other sub specifically asked for me not to stay, I could very well be dismissing how I feel and telling myself not to be so pushy so fast. I might be saying to myself "do a few more scenes and see if they invite you when they get to know you better. Rome wasn't built in a day" only for this not to happen and me eventually realise and feel like I've basically been deceived into dropping my knickers for NSA.

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