RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap

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longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 1:25:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stef quote: ORIGINAL: InfoMan You see, this is where the argument gets problematic. By simply asserting that there is no discrepancy in pay for Men over women, and that women are the only ones being oppressed, you limit the argument and produce a bias which only endears dislike and distrust of those making the claim. Shame that's not what I'm asserting. Nice strawman though. Precisely. I don't see anyone here who argues that there is a gender pay gap taking that sort of extreme position. No-one is claiming for one second that men are not "oppressed" or exploited in the labour market. What I see from posters who argue that there is still a gender pay gap is the recognition that it is a complex issue. Some posters who argue against it however are going to the other extreme and claiming that talk of a gender pay gap is a conspiracy or a political binary asserted by feminazis who do not recognise the very real problems that men have in the market. No-one on this or other threads on the subject who are arguing that a gender pay gap still exists are denying or minimising the exploitation of men, they are merely claiming that a pay gap still exists. It is the oldest trick in the book to paint those who disagree with you as extremists. That is rm's game. You may find extreme views talking up the gender pay gap from some web players on other sites. Not here. We are merely asserting that the pay gap still exists. Nothing more.

longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 1:54:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 ive read over and over in what ive posted that when all things are controlled for as much as possible, the "pay gap" disappears down to a nickel, and when other likely variables that cannot be controlled for are added in, that nickel disappears. you say what I just said explains part of the wage gap but not all. that's in direct contradiction to what ive posted by multiple sources citing multiple studies. so show studies then where everythings been controlled for, and women are making significantly less. your last point about promotions/proportions in relation to choice vs structural inequality---also then, show the studies where those aspects of employment are considered and women are coming out significantly on the short end of the stick. I've provided a few links which demonstrate the complexity of the situation and explain why gender pay gaps exist even after the removal of other factors. Of course if you are determined to argue against a pay gap any explanation will always be something you put down to women's choices and therefore negate. These are only examples from a cursory internet search and I'm much sure I could do better. However in the spirit of open debate I thought I would at least provide alternative voices and evidence to the argument that even to argue that there is a pay gap represents some kind of anti-male conspiracy. Warning for those prone to frothing at the mouth - some of these writers might be considered to be "lefties". If you are of a nervous disposition you might want to bite on a leather strap before reading, however you might also do some further work which will reveal that these people also highlight males exploitation in the workplace. The pay gap has shrunk and it could close completely as some commentators very positively and hopefully suggest, but it has not disappeared. What is the gender pay gap? Office for National Statistics Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings: 2016 provisional results Gender pay gap statistics - Eurostat The Simple Truth about the Gender Pay Gap (Spring 2017) Gender pay gap still exists and gets worse in better paid jobs Why the gender pay gap still exists and what women can do to close it by 2066 Close the gap Gender pay gap: women earn £300,000 less than men over working life

Awareness -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 2:12:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stef Yes, all those dangerous tech jobs where men still make significantly more than women. Bigly danger. Huge, even. We should have a ribbon campaign for all the manly men who give their lives on a daily basis in the bit mines. [image]http://www.animated-smileys.com/emoticons/animated-smileys-rolleyes-08.gif[/image] Women make less in tech because they're not as good at it as men are. When their gender is hidden, they score worse on entry criteria than they do when their gender is known.

mnottertail -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 2:14:43 PM)
???? If then else while do do until they dont know how to do that, they do that worse then men?

masmiss -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 2:18:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: stef Yes, all those dangerous tech jobs where men still make significantly more than women. Bigly danger. Huge, even. We should have a ribbon campaign for all the manly men who give their lives on a daily basis in the bit mines. [image]http://www.animated-smileys.com/emoticons/animated-smileys-rolleyes-08.gif[/image] Women make less in tech because they're not as good at it as men are. When their gender is hidden, they score worse on entry criteria than they do when their gender is known. You don't say. I wonder how it is, then, that I recently was able to negotiate a fabulous salary because I am in demand in quite a few places because of my exquisite skills. My gender was never an issue. Hmmm.

Awareness -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 2:20:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail ???? If then else while do do until they dont know how to do that, they do that worse then men? There's more to software engineering than branch control and iteration. While data modelling and algorithmic knowledge are relevant, the primary ability of a programmer is to use abstractions at varying levels of detail. Generally speaking, introverts who can focus on one thing to an obsessive level tend to make good engineers. Women are less likely to exhibit these personality traits. There are outliers, but that's all they are.

Awareness -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 2:21:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: masmiss You don't say. I wonder how it is, then, that I recently was able to negotiate a fabulous salary because I am in demand in quite a few places because of my exquisite skills. My gender was never an issue. Hmmm. If that was the case, then why would you be in a thread bitching about the mythical gender wage gap?

longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 2:28:26 PM)
The thread was started specifically to bitch about people claiming that there is a gender pay gap, not the other way round. No-one was motivated to start a thread to point out that the gender pay gap exists.

InfoMan -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 3:18:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome Not here. We are merely asserting that the pay gap still exists. Nothing more. And what is the point of that? the US Government asserts that the wage gap is 6.6 cents per dollar, and have concluded that this has absolutely nothing to do with gender inequality, but instead has everything to do with the fact that women simply choose different career paths then men which results in different wages. Arguing that the pay gap exists just to exist is entirely meaningless and misleading...

longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 3:45:43 PM)
Mmmmm. Interesting and deliberately misleading editing of my post. The whole basis of the thread is that the gender wage gap is a conspiracy and that it is a "feminazi theory". The posters who have argued that the gender wage gap exists have not sought to take an extreme position or argue that the labour market does not also exploit some men as was suggested in previous posts. In that sense those posters are not making "feminazi" claims backed by a complex anti-male agenda, they are "merely" refuting the proposition that the gender wage gap is some kind of dangerous myth dreamed up by extremists. You ask "What is the point of that?" Well, for starters it confirms that there is no conspiracy because the wage gap does indeed exist and, by implication, trying to understand it and/or tackle the consequences is a worthwhile endeavour. That is the sense in which I made that statement. The post is there. People can just scroll up and read it. I will repeat the statement that "no-one was motivated to start a thread to point out that the gender pay gap exists" but since a thread was started which claimed it was some kind of plot, it is perfectly understandable that some posters would choose to refute that claim.

bounty44 -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 3:53:23 PM)
i went to the first link. there is nothing in it that addresses the tension between promotions/proportions in relation to choice vs structural inequality. in fact, it reiterates whats already been said in the posts ive made: quote: These figures do not show differences in rates of pay for comparable jobs, and are affected by, for example, the proportion of men and women in different occupations. More women work part-time than men, leading to a larger overall pay gap A higher proportion of women work in jobs that tend to be lower paid women get paid less because they work less and they choose less well paying jobs. i went to the second link. the same occurred there. quote: While there is no single measure that fully deals with the complex issue of the differences between men’s and women’s pay, in this bulletin we use median hourly earnings (excluding overtime). Including overtime can skew the results because men work relatively more overtime than women, and using hourly earnings better accounts for the fact that men work on average more hours per week than women. The median is less affected by a relatively small number of very high earners than the mean, and therefore gives a better indication of typical pay. A paper further explaining our position on this topic is available. It should be noted that the figures do not show differences in rates of pay for comparable jobs, as they are affected by factors such as the proportion of men and women in different occupations. For example, a higher proportion of women work in occupations such as administration and caring, which tend to offer lower salaries. so they are not controlling for all the variables that are necessary to be controlled in order to say that a "wage gap" truly exists. if more men are doctors and more women are nurses, of course there's a "wage gap." and the fact that that's the case doesn't really speak to why those career choices were made in such a way as to suggest sexism. the question is, is there a wage gap when a male and a female are both doctors, working 60 hours per week, with the same education and experience, etc. i looked at the 4th link, thinking the title would actually elicit a response to my questions. it didn't. all it used are median salaries between genders. its embarrassing actually. expecting more or less the same, im not going to look at the other links. i asked you to provide data that shows that when everything is controlled for, women are still making significantly less than men. that is what a wage gap genuinely is. anything else is ultimately disingenuous, or a type of thinking i am not familiar with. in short, there's nothing ive seen that contradicts what im reading, and have been reading for years, that: "when all things are controlled for as much as possible, the "pay gap" disappears down to a nickel, and when other likely variables that cannot be controlled for are added in, that nickel disappears." its possible im missing something, in that case, hit me over the head with it and post the actual words that address the issue. to kinda tack on to some of the side conversations going on---why talk about a "wage gap" if it really doesn't exist? well---because outrage is created and political capital is gained by it. how it is that the lefties cannot look at the same data and information and come to the same conclusions is an utter mystery to me.

mnottertail -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 4:13:08 PM)
By request, Edwin Garvey...................... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/health/women-doctors-salaries-pay-gap.html?_r=0 after controls female doctors paid less than male doctors.

respectmen -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 4:18:30 PM)
The video of in the OP covers a lot vut what also throws a spanner in the works in regards of the feminist argument is that lesbians earn more than straight women on a general basis. That alone puts the feminist stance on this to shame.

mnottertail -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 4:57:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail ???? If then else while do do until they dont know how to do that, they do that worse then men? There's more to software engineering than branch control and iteration. While data modelling and algorithmic knowledge are relevant, the primary ability of a programmer is to use abstractions at varying levels of detail. Generally speaking, introverts who can focus on one thing to an obsessive level tend to make good engineers. Women are less likely to exhibit these personality traits. There are outliers, but that's all they are. Not really, I was one for 20+ years.

longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 5:06:21 PM)
And women just "choose" not to be promoted to the very top positions in companies? And women just "choose" to work in jobs where the pay is lower despite the equivalence of their qualifications? And women just "choose" workplaces where working practices fit in with family life? bounty44 uses the example of doctors. In the UK there is a national pay scale so a woman does indeed earn the same as a man in the same position but, despite the shortage of doctors, there is insufficient help for people to return to the workforce after time away, something that would make eminent economic sense. In certain branches of medicine it has historically been almost impossible to return to work because of the inherent culture. Until recently surgeons were almost all men with a small number of women who almost invariably had to decide not to have children. Even now with anti-discrimination legislation women are under-represented. We spend more resources on turning around the performance of a poor surgeon than we do helping a very good surgeon return to the workplace after a year out to have a child. Efforts are being made in this direction which is encouraging but women are still leaving the profession because of the lack of support they are offered. Even in female dominated professions such as nursing a disproportionate number of people in promoted positions are men. Are we to believe that men are even better at those jobs traditionally considered to be more suited to women? In investment banking, companies struggle to retain ambitious female employees long before they consider having children. The research suggests that the aggressively male culture and the fact that these women can see that they have little chance of being taken seriously and promoted to the top positions is what makes them leave prematurely, even after efforts have been made at non-discriminatory hiring. Women do indeed on average make rational economic choices not to work in professions where their prospects can be seen to have been poor over many years. On average they choose to play it safe in more secure lower paid jobs where they can minimise childcare costs rather than having to rely on promotion or professions which put barriers to their return to work. There is an embarrassingly low number of female directors just because women just don't want to trouble their tiny little heads with the stress of such a role. Really? The economy and the labour market are not run by some magical invisible hand. They are run by human beings (largely men of course) and those people do not always make choices which favour women. Generally there is over-supply of labour and it takes quite severe under-supply before individual parts of the labour market switch to supporting women to work as a way of increasing labour supply. That is not to say that there is not good practice and the gender wage gap has not decreased. It has decreased partly because, once you get over the mental block to making workplaces family friendly, it proves in many cases to be economically viable to offer flexible working practices that lead to the more equal employment of both women and men, whilst offering men better, more family friendly working conditions. The articles I choose suggest that we can indeed tackle these issues and that women themselves can affect the gender gap by moving wholesale into certain professions and forcing changes and by taking risks to work in areas where they are under-represented, despite the disinclination that an individual woman might have to work in an area with a clear glass ceiling. This needs to be supported by policy makers, universities and legislators. Inclusive workplaces are better at securing long term labour stability which provides an economic edge. In the UK, the recent recession came with a reluctance by companies to let go of staff for precisely this reason and these kinds of trends will help to reduce the gender pay gap further. There is good reason to believe that the gender age gap can be reduced further or eliminated, but not if we are brow beaten by wage gap denial. The wage gap is not the "fault" of individual men but a consequence of the system. Sometimes it is overt discrimination but more often it is a combination of historical patterns and a lack of imagination or motivation to tackle the issues. In other words the wage gap is overwhelmingly societal and institution rather than purely individual (despite the striking examples of explicit prejudice in some work places). The thought that women choose to earn less sounds counter-intuitive and wrong because it is. bounty44 would like to reduce every decision woman makes in the labour market to choice, presumably because women can choose not to take any given job. No evidence or argument will convince him that the wage gap is not the "fault" of women. The fact that women on average do not take personal risks with their own income or their ability to support their families does not constitute a situation that we should be happy with as a society. There are plenty of examples of very competent women in every field so the problem is not innate ability or skill. Unfortunately the problem is not with the individual but with the general, where women are under-represented in highly paid jobs and struggle financial in lower paid jobs more than men do on average. Addressing the gender wage gap means providing workplaces that allow for flexible practices - something which benefits men as well as women. It is not about bashing or blaming men but about having a society with true equality of opportunity, which makes the most of its most valuable asset - its workers of both sexes. It is a positive message, not a "feminazi" conspiracy.

bounty44 -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 6:18:48 PM)
yes women "choose" to do those things for all the reasons mentioned in my prior posts. alternatively, do you have evidence that equally qualified women who are desirous of such positions are being passed over simply due to their gender? if you want to talk about a sort of structural sexism, show the evidence. your suggesting it exists doesn't make it so. the three of your articles I looked at did pretty much nothing but report median statistics compared by gender. and i'll say it again because it doesn't seem to be registering; when all the variables are accounted for, theres no difference in wages between men and women. in any case, it doesn't seem to be a "wage gap" you are griping about, its that men and women choose different jobs or are represented disproportionately in different jobs. that's not a "wage gap" conversation, its something else.

longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 7:37:51 PM)
I don't need to get into an evidence competition with you, especially since your evidence mainly comprises internet opinion and all you are saying is that you remain unconvinced by what I have written. There are any number of articles looking at female employment and pay in the areas that I quoted, as well as documented cases of discrimination, which I am sure you will just claim prove no such thing. On even the most cursory searches I can find many articles which precisely make the point that after allowing for x or y factor there is still a gender gap. You are trying to trivialise what I am saying by referring to it as "griping", all the while only quoting highly politicised polemics to prove your point. I would once again remind you that I am not "griping". This whole thread is a "gripe" about people claiming that there is a wage gap and by hanging around for a few posts I have given you a target to complain about. The existence of a wage gap (after allowing for various factors) is accepted by the vast majority of governments and international bodies, who generally forward an overwhelmingly balanced and sophisticated message on what is a complex subject. The ONS figures I provided a link to have a thoughtful commentary, which alludes to many of your points without becoming overly polemical. I was answering the somewhat hysterical claim of the OP that claims about a pay gap are a "feminazi" conspiracy. Your constant calls for evidence whilst using what is clearly opinion to support yours is a common internet tactic to undermine other people's arguments, without engaging with the arguments made by those you disagree with. I could equally say that you have done nothing except prove that the issue of gendered pay is a complex one - something which I am not disputing. From what I have read, and from my experience in the workplace, I believe that there is valuable work to be done on equality and pay for women and working conditions for all. Even picking out gendered pay and careers in the medicine gives you any number of stories in a profession where female numbers will match males very shortly in most developed countries - yet still discrimination exists at the very top and affects career choices for entrants. Medicine is the *most* equal of professions where superior female academic performance is helping to drive change but even here there is much work to do. So I do not fall into your categorisation of a person whining about a pay gap, nor am I the poster boy for the mythical feminazis. The pay gap is just a fact of life and an area where progress has been made but more is required. This is hardly an extreme position to be pilloried but a different interpretation to yours. It would have been interesting to be able to focus on some specifics and debate them with you or any other person sharing your opinions but that is not how "debate" works on a kink site, let alone the internet. You know that there is a body of research that disagrees with your point of view, just as there are articles agreeing with your point of view that can be found just as easily. The no evidence charge is therefore one neither of us can make effectively.

tamaka -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 7:44:10 PM)
Men at the top want to deal with men at the top. Women make good presentations, men close the deals... with each other. It's a nature thing.

respectmen -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/8/2017 8:11:30 PM)
Has the ‘sexuality wage gap’ been addressed? http://ewn.co.za/2017/03/07/has-the-sexuality-wage-gap-been-addressed Gotta larf

bounty44 -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/9/2017 2:09:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome I don't need to get into an evidence competition with you, especially since your evidence mainly comprises internet opinion and all you are saying is that you remain unconvinced by what I have written. how very convenient for you, especially when you provide no evidence, and then relegate the evidence ive provided as "internet opinion" as opposed to synopses of actual studies. you are the only one providing "opinion." the only "body of research" that seems to disagree requires redefining the phrase "wage gap" in ways that make it other than a true "wage gap." you might do well to figure out something else to call it. quote: "In fact, when researchers try to control for these differences, the wage gap virtually disappears. "A recent Glassdoor study that made an honest attempt to get beyond the superficial numbers showed that after controlling for age, education, years of experience, job title, employer, and location, the gender pay gap fell from nearly twenty-five cents on the dollar to around five cents on the dollar. In other words, women are making 95 cents for every dollar men are making, once you compare men and women with similar educational, experiential, and professional characteristics." "When we examined pay gaps by grade level for the GS population, we found that there was no significant gap between female and male salaries. However, more females were found in lower grades, which may be a reflection of differences in occupational distribution.[5] " "Many economists have examined how the pay gap changes after controlling for factors that influence pay. Most studies find that observable characteristics explain a large portion of the apparent gap in pay between male and female workers—with differences in occupation and experience having the largest effect. " "Farrell argues that comparable males and females have been earning similar salaries for decades, though the press has yet to notice. As long ago as the early 1980s, he writes, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics found that companies paid men and women equal money when their titles and responsibilities were the same." "Accounting for several observable characteristics shows women with the same skills and doing the same jobs as men are paid almost the same amount. Including other factors would probably further shrink the remaining difference. An apples-to-apples comparison shows women earn almost as much—and quite possibly just as much—as men for doing the same work. Aggregate differences in pay reflect different choices made by individual men and women." and on and on and on... those look like "opinions" to you, or conclusions from studies? quote: •Men go into technology and hard sciences more than women. •Men tend to take more stressful jobs that are not "nine-to-five." •Men are more likely to work longer hours, and the pay gap widens for every hour past 40 per week. •Women are more likely to have "gaps" in their careers, primarily because of child rearing and child care. Less experience means lower pay. those look like "opinions" or results of studies? that look like sexism to you or choices people make? this is all very reminiscent of the title ix arguments when it comes to "equal representation" in sport, and how the radical feminists simply cannot accept that men and women are different when it comes to athletic participation and that women don't value it as much as men do. last try---if you have evidence of structural sexism that disadvantages women in terms of their pay, all else being equal, then share it. if you have evidence of structural sexism that disadvantages women in terms of the jobs they choose, then share that.

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