RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (Full Version)

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Aylee -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/13/2017 8:23:19 PM)


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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Aylee


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ORIGINAL: Kirata


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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
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ORIGINAL: Kirata

Evidence on the Biological Basis of Gender Identity

According to a review article in Endocrine Practice, there is increasing evidence of a biological basis for gender identity . . . “This paper represents the first comprehensive review of the scientific evidence that gender identity is a biological phenomenon,” explains corresponding author Joshua D. Safer, MD, FACP.

let me make it very clear: there is no basis for claims of biological gender determination. For such a claim to be sustainable it requires that you believe humans are capable of analysing human behaviour perfectly.

Anybody who starts a paragraph with a claim like that, and then defends it by invoking the impossibility of analyzing human behavior perfectly, should not be encouraged to harm herself further.

K.



No basis for biological gender determination. So no "gender gene"? So people cannot be born transgendered? Gender is all nurture and no nature?

It sounds like you are assuming that gender in every individual is a 100% fully determined phenomenon. That may not be the case.


If gender is non-determinable, a social construct, and as fluid as claimed, why are pronouns so important?




longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/13/2017 10:43:06 PM)

There is plenty of evidence that there are biological differences between the performance of a group of men and a group of women when performing certain tasks.

What is clear however is that the variation within each of the groups is far greater than the variation between the groups. In practice this means that whether you are good with words, spacial perception, abstract reasoning or a range of other areas where men and women on average perform slightly differently, is far more a matter of your individual characteristics than your gender.

The problem is how you take results like this and apply them to a theory of nature/nurture or "biological determinism".

If you go for the biological determinist argument you claim that the well documented differences in women's pay are partly explained by factors which are to do with genes, hormones and choices women make because they are different to men. If however you focus on the fact that the majority of the variation is between individuals and not genders, you will tend to argue that any difference based on the different abilities of men and women explains little and the weight of social norms is a more powerful determinant of economic behaviour and gaps in pay.

Here's the rub. There is no sure-fire method to crunch the figures so both arguments can be made and where you stand as a individual depends on your belief system more than irrefutable "evidence".

For my part I start from the premise that there are indeed differences in male and female economic and social behaviour, but that social conditioning is a better explanation than true biological differences. Male and female abilities overlap so much that the marginal "biological" differences between men and women do not fully explain the very different life chances of men and women, especially when those "biological" differences are partly due to social norms in the first place.

It isn't necessary to argue that there are or aren't biological differences or differences based on social norms. Both exist and influence economic outcomes.

The central issue then becomes whether you believe that equal pay is a social good or not. As a card carrying "lefty" (not a feminazi or a misogynist) I believe that equality of opportunity is a good thing, and that whilst equality of outcome is impossible, we are long way from giving all people that equality of opportunity.

For my part, pursuing social and economic policies which encourage equality of opportunity is therefore a social and economic good. The main downside is that equality of opportunity means downward mobility as well as upward mobility in society so that, for example a male born to a wealthy family might not expect to be as well off as his parents. As a white male of comfortable economic means I feel no need to take sides based on that fact and I do not feel threatened by the possibility that the most powerful group in global society might lose some of it's economic, political and social influence, especially when that influence is to the detriment of others.

That gets all of my "prejudices" on this subject onto the table.

As for arguing around the topic of biological predisposition, it certainly exists. It just doesn't trump every other explanation of social and economic difference. Just as it doesn't make men naturally Dom and women naturally submissive as some argue.

Finally, although feminism has been a factor in the advancement of women, the world is still largely ruled by economically and politically powerful white men. That is to the detriment of many groups, including women and the vast majority of white men. The biggest single determinant of economic well-being is overwhelmingly your parents wealth and income, even in the US where social mobility remains limited despite the "land of opportunity" rhetoric. The "class system" which some believe is more a UK or European phenomenon, appears in practical terms to be just as much in evidence in the US as it is in Europe, sometimes more.

If you are a woman your hope of economic advancement is even less.




tweakabelle -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 12:18:31 AM)

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

No basis for biological gender determination. So no "gender gene"? So people cannot be born transgendered? Gender is all nurture and no nature?

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tweakabelle
It sounds like you are assuming that gender in every individual is a 100% fully determined phenomenon. That may not be the case.


If gender is non-determinable, a social construct, and as fluid as claimed, why are pronouns so important?

I am not saying that gender is "non-determinable" at all. Most people experience their genders as fixed and determined. But not all of us do all of the time. From a theoretical perspective one can describe much more of the evidence and so build a far more comprehensive understanding/model of gender if one assumes that gender is a potentially open ended phenomenon than a closed, "fixed and immutable" one. The latter assumption must necessarily precede any theory of gender determination, biological or otherwise.

Most people people find pronouns very important. When the 'wrong' pronoun is used to describe an everyday person they are liable to take offence, regardless of whatever gender that person may have. For transgender people pronouns are especially important as deliberately using an inappropriate pronoun with a TG is more than a grammatical error it is a direct negation of that person's sense of self and usually the imposition of an unwanted hated label in its place. But like so many aspects of gender, TGs are no different than anyone else in this regard, it's just that the way gender is attributed to them by others varies from the norm.




Greta75 -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 12:41:00 AM)

FR

I just wanna say that Breaking News Today IS, New Yahoo CEO who is MALE with LESS duties will be paid TWO TIMES the amount their previous Female CEO with MORE RESPONSIBILITY will be paid.

So Gender Wage Gap is obviously still striving hard!

He is getting 2 Mil per annum starting pay, while the Female one only got 1 Mil per annum starting pay.





tweakabelle -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 12:52:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR

I just wanna say that Breaking News Today IS, New Yahoo CEO who is MALE with LESS duties will be paid TWO TIMES the amount their previous Female CEO with MORE RESPONSIBILITY will be paid.

So Gender Wage Gap is obviously still striving hard!

He is getting 2 Mil per annum starting pay, while the Female one only got 1 Mil per annum starting pay.



Yes. That would have to compelling evidence of the existence and operation of a "glass ceiling" preventing women from achieving wage equality ie a gender gap.

It will interesting to see how our resident anti-feminist brigade spins away such blatant evidence of discrimination ... or will it? On reflection, it's likely to more of the same turgid fact-challenged moronic nonsense that the RMs, Nannjis et al post all the time.




ynsubm -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 9:15:26 AM)

I tend to just read the forums a lot then ever post, but since its a freak snow storm might as well do a reply. I think when you just talk about the yahoo CEO in terms of general of men vs women and not broader terms. Your actually making the case for the non wage gap opponents stronger.

Both the other posters above me forgot to mention that under the female CEO yahoo a floundering internet company as it was has only gone down hill with her. Also to mention has taken another major hit with the devastating cyber attack a couple of months ago.

With yahoo now bought by Verizon, you would need to compensate a new ceo that knows this company is in a nose dive and most likely is going to be swallowed and rename into Verizon mail, Verizon flickr, etc. Add to this a new American trend where you no longer get raises or promotions just new jobs for more money tends to favor men who are more prone to risk take. As we see in the American soccer teams men just get paid when there on the field and women want to be paid even when not on the field.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/03/13/yahoo-altaba-verizon-ceo-thomas-mcinerney-marissa-mayer/99120292/

"""Edit this was not a bash or directed at tweak, not used to posting and i think it latched onto her """




tamaka -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 9:36:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR

I just wanna say that Breaking News Today IS, New Yahoo CEO who is MALE with LESS duties will be paid TWO TIMES the amount their previous Female CEO with MORE RESPONSIBILITY will be paid.

So Gender Wage Gap is obviously still striving hard!

He is getting 2 Mil per annum starting pay, while the Female one only got 1 Mil per annum starting pay.



Yes. That would have to compelling evidence of the existence and operation of a "glass ceiling" preventing women from achieving wage equality ie a gender gap.

It will interesting to see how our resident anti-feminist brigade spins away such blatant evidence of discrimination ... or will it? On reflection, it's likely to more of the same turgid fact-challenged moronic nonsense that the RMs, Nannjis et al post all the time.



Thank you for offering us a perfect example of your incompetence as well as supporting evidence to support my statement that psychological/social research can find whatever they want to find.




Greta75 -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 11:44:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ynsubm
Both the other posters above me forgot to mention that under the female CEO yahoo a floundering internet company as it was has only gone down hill with her. Also to mention has taken another major hit with the devastating cyber attack a couple of months ago.

Yahoo was a dying company when the Female took over. She has the herculean Task of reviving Yahoo. Yea, her screw up is that Yahoo got hacked during her Term. But THAT doesn't make any sense that the NEW DUDE gets 2 Times her salary for doing nothing yet or proving nothing yet!

quote:

With yahoo now bought by Verizon, you would need to compensate a new ceo that knows this company is in a nose dive and most likely is going to be swallowed and rename into Verizon mail, Verizon flickr, etc. Add to this a new American trend where you no longer get raises or promotions just new jobs for more money tends to favor men who are more prone to risk take.

This is exactly discrimination. Actually, once Yahoo is bought over by Verizon, it would be on more secure footing again. How is the new Dude job tougher than Marisa?
quote:

As we see in the American soccer teams men just get paid when there on the field and women want to be paid even when not on the field.

The Female Soccer Team in the US is another sad sad sad thing. They are almost champions for World Female Soccer every year, and yet they get zero credit, zero recognition, and gets paid minimum wage for an Athlete.

And the male soccer team is a constant failure. And they get paid more.




tamaka -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 12:04:02 PM)

Greta, when you get into top level management positions, you pay for the person and what they are worth based on experience, past performance, etc. One person might be worth more than the other based on qualifications, experience, past success, and possibly even connections. A company decides whether or not they are willing to pay more for person A, vs person B. There is no way any intelligent person would say "He got 2 mil because he's a man" unless they could prove that the qualifications, experiences, connections, past successes, etc were absolutely equal.




longwayhome -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 1:08:33 PM)

Which of course is one of the reasons for a gender pay gap.

Women tend to have less experience of Board level positions because there is a glass ceiling and they do not get Board level jobs. If you appoint based on relevant senior management experience then you generally do not appoint a women. This perpetuates the gender pay gap.

Even after social attitudes move on, if you do nothing to support women in the workplace, previous patterns of employment and reward will continue because women have less experience. This form of sexism of course is not the result of any individual man's prejudice rather it is structural.

There are of course professions where a tipping point has been reached and this kind of structural sexism has disappeared, however strangely at the most senior level direct prejudice and sexism are only too obvious. The problems women still have in being taken seriously as surgeons is a case in point in a profession which is close to parity in terms of numbers these days.

To be fair comparing the two senior positions in different companies proves little but the lack of women in senior positions overall is very telling. There are very successful organisations with fairly equal numbers of male and female managers so it is difficult to believe that overwhelmingly appointing men to Board level positions is a matter of innate ability.




tweakabelle -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 6:43:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR

I just wanna say that Breaking News Today IS, New Yahoo CEO who is MALE with LESS duties will be paid TWO TIMES the amount their previous Female CEO with MORE RESPONSIBILITY will be paid.

So Gender Wage Gap is obviously still striving hard!

He is getting 2 Mil per annum starting pay, while the Female one only got 1 Mil per annum starting pay.



Yes. That would have to compelling evidence of the existence and operation of a "glass ceiling" preventing women from achieving wage equality ie a gender gap.
i
It will interesting to see how our resident anti-feminist brigade spins away such blatant evidence of discrimination ... or will it? On reflection, it's likely to more of the same turgid fact-challenged moronic nonsense that the RMs, Nannjis et al post all the time.



Thank you for offering us a perfect example of your incompetence as well as supporting evidence to support my statement that psychological/social research can find whatever they want to find.


So the person who would have us believe she is the possessor of no less than 3 university degrees is unable to see why the fact that a man getting paid twice as much as a women for precisely the same work is evidence of discrimination ....? Astonishing!

If I was you tamaka, I'd be asking for my money back. None of those 3 'degrees' is worth the $10 you paid for them.




tamaka -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 7:00:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

FR

I just wanna say that Breaking News Today IS, New Yahoo CEO who is MALE with LESS duties will be paid TWO TIMES the amount their previous Female CEO with MORE RESPONSIBILITY will be paid.

So Gender Wage Gap is obviously still striving hard!

He is getting 2 Mil per annum starting pay, while the Female one only got 1 Mil per annum starting pay.



Yes. That would have to compelling evidence of the existence and operation of a "glass ceiling" preventing women from achieving wage equality ie a gender gap.
i
It will interesting to see how our resident anti-feminist brigade spins away such blatant evidence of discrimination ... or will it? On reflection, it's likely to more of the same turgid fact-challenged moronic nonsense that the RMs, Nannjis et al post all the time.



Thank you for offering us a perfect example of your incompetence as well as supporting evidence to support my statement that psychological/social research can find whatever they want to find.


So the person who would have us believe she is the possessor of no less than 3 university degrees is unable to see why the fact that a man getting paid twice as much as a women for precisely the same work is evidence of discrimination ....? Astonishing!

If I was you tamaka, I'd be asking for my money back. None of those 3 'degrees' is worth the $10 you paid for them.


You really are a moron aren't you. CEO A vs. CEO B might not do much of anything the same based on their experience, etc. Have you ever heard of the expression, "You get what you pay for". I understand you are just a simple student without any Sr. Mgt experience like i have, but i thought you were able to think at least a little bit for yourself.




Kirata -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 8:22:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

I just wanna say that Breaking News Today IS, New Yahoo CEO who is MALE with LESS duties will be paid TWO TIMES the amount their previous Female CEO with MORE RESPONSIBILITY will be paid.

Yes. That would have to compelling evidence of the existence and operation of a "glass ceiling" preventing women from achieving wage equality ie a gender gap.

There is no evidence that gender was a factor. And even if such evidence existed, we would still only be talking about one company in one industry, which is hardly compelling evidence of wide-spread discrimination. Moreover, research has shown that males and females tend on average to have different interests, even among lower primates, which is sufficient in itself to explain gender disparities in different areas of the economy and consequent gender differences in overall income without resorting to identity politics and cries of oppression.

K.




Kirata -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 8:51:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

So the person who would have us believe she is the possessor of no less than 3 university degrees is unable to see why the fact that a man getting paid twice as much as a women for precisely the same work is evidence of discrimination ....? Astonishing!

Well, let's hope not for the same work!

Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer will step down from her role with the company following Yahoo’s sale to Verizon, it was announced today. Mayer has been CEO of Yahoo since she moved from Google in 2012. Since then, she has overseen Yahoo’s fall from a prominent internet company to the butt of a joke about email clients, watched as billions of Yahoo users have been hacked, and bought 53 other companies, none of which have done anything.

In return for her services, Mayer will receive a severance package worth around $23 million, according to regulatory documents filed Monday . . . It’s a sad end for Yahoo and Mayer, who has long been one of a few female CEOs of large tech companies. She was brought on with the express mission of turning around Yahoo’s failing fortunes five years ago, but has mostly just served as a custodian for Yahoo’s slow demise.
~Source

K.




tamaka -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/14/2017 9:10:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

So the person who would have us believe she is the possessor of no less than 3 university degrees is unable to see why the fact that a man getting paid twice as much as a women for precisely the same work is evidence of discrimination ....? Astonishing!

Well, let's hope not for the same work!

Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer will step down from her role with the company following Yahoo’s sale to Verizon, it was announced today. Mayer has been CEO of Yahoo since she moved from Google in 2012. Since then, she has overseen Yahoo’s fall from a prominent internet company to the butt of a joke about email clients, watched as billions of Yahoo users have been hacked, and bought 53 other companies, none of which have done anything.

In return for her services, Mayer will receive a severance package worth around $23 million, according to regulatory documents filed Monday . . . It’s a sad end for Yahoo and Mayer, who has long been one of a few female CEOs of large tech companies. She was brought on with the express mission of turning around Yahoo’s failing fortunes five years ago, but has mostly just served as a custodian for Yahoo’s slow demise.
~Source

K.



Exactly, and her replacement's credentials are quite different than hers.




Greta75 -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/15/2017 10:07:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
"He got 2 mil because he's a man" unless they could prove that the qualifications, experiences, connections, past successes, etc were absolutely equal.

Can you prove that they are not equal? Marisa was hired for an herculean task. Yahoo was dying, why would they hire someone unqualified to lift them back up?





tamaka -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/15/2017 10:16:43 PM)

Yes in addition to general management, he has also been a CFO in high tech for many years, as one example.




Greta75 -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/16/2017 2:57:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
Yes in addition to general management, he has also been a CFO in high tech for many years, as one example.

She was Vice President for many years too.




tamaka -> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap (3/16/2017 3:04:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
Yes in addition to general management, he has also been a CFO in high tech for many years, as one example.

She was Vice President for many years too.


That doesn't compare... a generalist VP vs. A CFO




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