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RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:21:00 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
It's working okay, no States have seceded lately unlike the UK did from the EU.

Yep, you lived here more than 8 months so you know all about the US. You could have been born in the US and lived here all your life and there are parts of the US, if you moved there, it would take 20 or 30 years before they even considered you a neighbor.

Firstly, we haven't seceded from anyone.
We joined the common market in 1973.
We now see that was a mistake since the Lisbon Treaty was introduced so we've decided to leave.

Secondly, I make no claims to know much about the US other than I know a lot more than those who have never been there or only on a short vacation to Disneyland.

And considering I watch/listen to at least 2 news streams constantly 24/7 from non-US sources, I get a better picture than most.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:22:41 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

You always quote trial areas.
I've said it before - that never works; it has to be nationwide to have any real effect.

You guys really can't think out of the box.

Let me dumb it down enough that you might undertstand.....
Everywhere else has guns.
We have much stricter laws to buy and own one.
Our police force is better trained and more effective.
Everywhere there are these laws and restrictions on a country-wide basis, it works.
The figures prove that, time and time again from numerous neutral sources.

The US police can't enforce what little laws you have.
What laws you have are woefully inadequate and not effective.

Ergo: your gun society has a much higher quotient of gun deaths per capita than anywhere else.



Do you even have any knowledge of logic?

All cats are green.
Ergo: all trees are cats.

You keep making assumptions and conclusions from those assumptions.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:26:23 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And in those 8 months he learned that there is no place in the us where you can drive over fifty and that US cops all think that we should have the UKs gun laws. I have spent most of my life areound cops and while I am sure some think that way I haven't met any of them, but those are his personal observations.

Oh good god bama. Do at least get it right!!

I said that those I was staying with and those that I speak to online do not and have never driven over 50mph.

And where did I say that all US cops think you should have UK laws??
Go on, quote where I said that.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:29:00 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
...
You use that book to bolster your argument that flies in the face of every other statistic out there given by internationally coroborated neutral sources.

If there's one source that doesn't tally with the rest, there's only two conclusions -
1) it's waay ahead of it's time and everyone else is wrong; or,
2) it's biased and untrue.

I know which I prefer to believe (hint: it's not your out-dated book).
BamaD answered all this for me:
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
What you don't know is that there have been 22 studies since then.
19 agree with Lott's conclutions.
2 say it doesn't make any difference.
1 agrees with you.
To bad that one (done by the Brady Bunch) refused peer review (all the rest submitted to it) wouldn't reveil it sourches , and would tell wat their methods were.
You also add to your ignorance the fact that after peer review Lott corrected concerns about his methods and still came to the same conclusions and came through per review much better the 2nd time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And I get along quite well with the EU TYVM!!
Then why are you leaving?

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:37:19 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Do you even have any knowledge of logic?

All cats are green.
Ergo: all trees are cats.

You keep making assumptions and conclusions from those assumptions.

Oh funny har har.
Your logic is flawed.
Not all cats are green.
Ergo: your conclusion is not substantiated and false.

Fact: The US cannot enforce the gun laws you currently have.
Fact: The US have more guns per capita than any other civilised nation.
Fact: The US has a disproportionately high number of gun deaths per capita compared to other nations.

As for your Lott's book to support your logical argument....
19 esteemed people/teams support the conclusions.
26 esteemed people/teams oppose those conclusions.

Many of those that oppose Lott's conclusions are questioning his methodology and his data samples to the point of calling it "junk science".

Add in the NRC report which also does not support Lott.
Add in the facts of gun deaths in the US compared to all other civilised (and gun-owning) countries.

I'll go with the majority, TYVM.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:40:40 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
It's working okay, no States have seceded lately unlike the UK did from the EU.

Yep, you lived here more than 8 months so you know all about the US. You could have been born in the US and lived here all your life and there are parts of the US, if you moved there, it would take 20 or 30 years before they even considered you a neighbor.

Firstly, we haven't seceded from anyone.
We joined the common market in 1973.
We now see that was a mistake since the Lisbon Treaty was introduced so we've decided to leave.

Secondly, I make no claims to know much about the US other than I know a lot more than those who have never been there or only on a short vacation to Disneyland.

And considering I watch/listen to at least 2 news streams constantly 24/7 from non-US sources, I get a better picture than most.


But there is now way you have any business lecturing Americans about the US, I think my 66 years outweighs your 8 months by a long shot.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:44:00 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Then why are you leaving?

Because the Lisbon treaty fucked up what was a good idea and was working well.
"was" being the operative word here.

We are leaving because it was the majority vote to leave.

I remember the times before we joined.
We were doing fine.
The Common Market (as it was then) helped when things went a bit wonky.
But it has destroyed our fishing industry.
It has stopped us having control of our borders.
The European Courts are overruling our own.
Their stupid laws are becoming intolerable.
So we had a vote - and we're leaving the EU.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:45:45 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And in those 8 months he learned that there is no place in the us where you can drive over fifty and that US cops all think that we should have the UKs gun laws. I have spent most of my life areound cops and while I am sure some think that way I haven't met any of them, but those are his personal observations.

Oh good god bama. Do at least get it right!!

I said that those I was staying with and those that I speak to online do not and have never driven over 50mph.

And where did I say that all US cops think you should have UK laws??
Go on, quote where I said that.


You said that the SC cops you talked to said that and since all the cops you talked to agreed there was now reason to think that it was aminority view.
I think that in both cases sombody was pulling your leg.
All you had to do in te one case, you can drive over 50 in town in many places.
You will swallow anything that fits your view that this is a backward violent country.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:50:56 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Do you even have any knowledge of logic?

All cats are green.
Ergo: all trees are cats.

You keep making assumptions and conclusions from those assumptions.

Oh funny har har.
Your logic is flawed.
Not all cats are green.
Ergo: your conclusion is not substantiated and false.

Fact: The US cannot enforce the gun laws you currently have.
Fact: The US have more guns per capita than any other civilised nation.
Fact: The US has a disproportionately high number of gun deaths per capita compared to other nations.

As for your Lott's book to support your logical argument....
19 esteemed people/teams support the conclusions.
26 esteemed people/teams oppose those conclusions.

Many of those that oppose Lott's conclusions are questioning his methodology and his data samples to the point of calling it "junk science".

Add in the NRC report which also does not support Lott.
Add in the facts of gun deaths in the US compared to all other civilised (and gun-owning) countries.

I'll go with the majority, TYVM.


And you still have not read the book, no need to check for yourself if the majority says it, so does that mean that if you lived in Germany during WWII you would have gone along with the majority?

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:51:13 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
But there is now way you have any business lecturing Americans about the US, I think my 66 years outweighs your 8 months by a long shot.

I would agree with that - IF you and your fellow citizens weren't so intransigent.

A 1-year old sensible person is by far the better than a 100-year old idiot.

So your 66 years doesn't make you any better at judgement than my 8 months.
Sure, you know the position better than I but that doesn't make you any better at forming a solution to a run-a-way problem does it.

The US has had almost 250 years to solve this problem and you still haven't.
Most of us other countries decided to change less than a century ago and it fixed the majority of it.
No, it's not perfect, but we don't have the attrocious figures you have.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:53:53 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
And you still have not read the book, no need to check for yourself if the majority says it, so does that mean that if you lived in Germany during WWII you would have gone along with the majority?

Why do I need to read the book???
Others more learned than I have done so and given their verdict.
19 for it, 26 and a report against it.
And the facts don't match his conclusions either.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 9:55:46 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

As for your Lott's book to support your logical argument....
19 esteemed people/teams support the conclusions.
26 esteemed people/teams oppose those conclusions.

I'll go with the majority, TYVM.

In 2004, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released its evaluation from a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, and some original empirical research. It failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide, or gun accidents. The same conclusion was reached in 2003 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control’s review of the extant studies...

Comparison of "homicide and suicide mortality data for thirty-six nations (including the United States) for the period 1990-1995" to gun ownership levels showed "no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate." Consistent with this is a later European study of data from 21 nations in which "no significant correlations [of gun ownership levels] with total suicide or homicide rates were found."

Source: Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).

On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was "used" by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004).

Source: National Research Council

K.


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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 10:04:37 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
But there is now way you have any business lecturing Americans about the US, I think my 66 years outweighs your 8 months by a long shot.

I would agree with that - IF you and your fellow citizens weren't so intransigent.

A 1-year old sensible person is by far the better than a 100-year old idiot.

So your 66 years doesn't make you any better at judgement than my 8 months.
Sure, you know the position better than I but that doesn't make you any better at forming a solution to a run-a-way problem does it.

The US has had almost 250 years to solve this problem and you still haven't.
Most of us other countries decided to change less than a century ago and it fixed the majority of it.
No, it's not perfect, but we don't have the attrocious figures you have.


Yep your prejudice outweighs my expereince.
Every time you tells how Americans think you get it wrong.
A couple of pages ago you told me that I don't care about bad areas or I would try to do something about them. This alone shows that you don't know straight up.

I have spent much of the last 2 decades doing exaclt that helping take back my part of town. 4 years ago I was awakened by sirens and flashingf blue lights at least 3 times a week.
I and others stood up to the thugs and about 2.5 years ago the cops started paying more attention.
Now the routine cop confrontations haven't occured in over a year.
This did not happen from going in the house when confronted by drug daelers and letting them stay in our yard and do their business.
It happened because we persuaded them that staying away was the healthy thing to do.
And it didn't come by building illegal weapons to keep in our home in case the bad guys gave us a time out to get them.

And your posts remind me of an 8year old who thinks they knw more than the adults.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 10:05:05 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You said that the SC cops you talked to said that and since all the cops you talked to agreed there was now reason to think that it was aminority view.
I think that in both cases sombody was pulling your leg.
All you had to do in te one case, you can drive over 50 in town in many places.
You will swallow anything that fits your view that this is a backward violent country.

It wasn't SC, it was FL - Jax and Tampa.
And yes, those cops I spoke to did say that they approved of other countries' gun laws.
And I never claimed it was a majority PoV - that's your twist to it.

As for driving.... I was constantly screaming up/down the road at over 90mph until I reached the local shopping mall in Tampa (well, New Port Richey to be exact).
My friend was shitting a brick because she'd never been over 35mph in her life.
I do more than 50mph around my local streets here - I don't find it a problem.

Oh, and I spent at least 4-5 hours chatting to the duty motorbike cop in the mall every other day while I was there - he hated having a gun because it put him more at risk of being shot than if he was in a country where the police aren't usually armed (his words, not mine).


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 10:07:50 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		S
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You said that the SC cops you talked to said that and since all the cops you talked to agreed there was now reason to think that it was aminority view.
I think that in both cases sombody was pulling your leg.
All you had to do in te one case, you can drive over 50 in town in many places.
You will swallow anything that fits your view that this is a backward violent country.



It wasn't SC, it was FL - Jax and Tampa.
And yes, those cops I spoke to did say that they approved of other countries' gun laws.
And I never claimed it was a majority PoV - that's your twist to it.

As for driving.... I was constantly screaming up/down the road at over 90mph until I reached the local shopping mall in Tampa (well, New Port Richey to be exact).
My friend was shitting a brick because she'd never been over 35mph in her life.
I do more than 50mph around my local streets here - I don't find it a problem.

Oh, and I spent at least 4-5 hours chatting to the duty motorbike cop in the mall every other day while I was there - he hated having a gun because it put him more at risk of being shot than if he was in a country where the police aren't usually armed (his words, not mine).


So when you said you couldn't drive over 50 you were lying.
I said, though you clearly mussed it that there were nodoubt some cops who thought your way. You are even backtracking on this because you brought it up in the context tha even the police disagreed with me.

Every example you throw out you change when confronted with the stupidityof what you said.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/6/2017 10:12:14 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 10:11:13 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Some good points, K.

However, all those studies in the US refer to gun users - either the criminals or the victims using guns for defense.

If your assailant wouldn't normally have a gun, the overall figures are much much lower - as evidenced by the stats from various sources across the net.


ETA: if you can point me to creditable and reasonably unbiased source that shows that the US has a lower gun death total than other civilised countries, I'll take a look at it.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 5/6/2017 10:47:49 PM >

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 10:17:18 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Some good points, K.

However, all those studies in the US refer to gun users - either the criminals or the victims using guns for defense.

If your assailant wouldn't normally have a gun, the overall figures are much much lower - as evidenced by the stats from various sources across the net.



Criminal, by definition aren't useing guns for self defense.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 10:49:07 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Some good points, K.

However, all those studies in the US refer to gun users - either the criminals or the victims using guns for defense.

If your assailant wouldn't normally have a gun, the overall figures are much much lower - as evidenced by the stats from various sources across the net.



Criminal, by definition aren't useing guns for self defense.

I never said they did bama.
Try reading what I wrote.

I said: either the criminals or the victims using guns for defense.

And your definitions are a bit off too.
If the criminal is defending himself from his intended victim or the police, are you saying that they never ever use a gun for that purpose??
Because that's what you defined in your response.
You can be a criminal -and- defend yourself with gun.
See what I mean about narrow thinking?? You seem to suffer from it.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 11:07:22 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If your assailant wouldn't normally have a gun, the overall figures are much much lower - as evidenced by the stats from various sources across the net.

True enough, but I think the conclusion that stands out clearly is that the determining factor is culture. With regard to guns, there is no single gun culture in the United States. There is what might be called America's traditional gun culture, which regards firearms as embodying the right to self-defense and stresses safety and responsibility, and then there is a pathological sub-culture that sees guns and their use as symbolic of power and status.

Our national homicide rate is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.5 to 4 per 100k, but the distribution is far from evenly spread. The homicide rate in Detroit, for example, is 45/100k, followed by New Orleans at 42.7/100k, then Newark at 40/100k, and St. Louis at 38/100k to name just the top four (2015 data). And within those cities there are similarly stark disparities, with the majority of the homicides occurring in concentrated areas.

I suppose that would be the case to some degree in most countries, but I am not content to sacrifice the right of our citizens to an effective means of self-defense in order to deprive a violent sub-culture of its toys, and we apparently have no intention of vigorously enforcing the laws already on the books against the illegal possession and trafficking of firearms. Instead we push for "feel good" measures such as banning guns that look like assault rifles (oh my!).

I mean, seriously. I don't agree that we're nuts in the way that some people think, but yeah we're nuts.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/6/2017 11:50:04 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 11:33:36 PM   
CaptR


Posts: 425
Joined: 4/25/2012
Status: offline 		In general response:
I see "facts" being mentioned in this thread. Has anyone looked up the FBI stats on crime in the US? Guns play a significant part in crime violent crime. Their ILLEGAL use is undeniable. What needs to be done is the cessation of coddling criminals by judges, lawyers and bleeding heart's with the enforcement of laws already on the books.
In the semi annual FBI report for 2015/16 guns were used in 71.5% of the nation's murders. Murder made up 1.3% of the violent crime rate in that time period. Guns were used in 40.8% of robberies which made up 27.3% of violent crime. Guns were used in 24.2% of aggravated assaults which made up 63.8% of violent crime.
When you stack the US up against our North/ Central/ South American neighbors we rank #13th in gun violence. When compared to Western European countries we top the list and come out #2 against Eastern Europe.
South Africa tops the list for most murders per followed by Honduras, Venezuela and Belize it or not, Belize.
The one fact I'm sure of is, unless you are a deer, turkey, elk, bear, or migratory fowl legally hunted in North America, or a four legged (or two legged) predator intent on doing mine, me or some innocent harm you have nothing to fear from my guns.

< Message edited by CaptR -- 5/7/2017 12:17:55 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 140
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