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RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:41:29 PM   
Milesnmiles


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Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
...
Then explain to the rest of us how the gun crazy USA is the country with the highest number of deaths per capita?

People in the USA kill each other many different ways perhaps it has nothing to do with whether the US has guns or not but just that Americans like to kill each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Gun ownership in such high numbers creates death and misery - not reduce it.

Some proof of the correlation would be nice, the book I mentioned seems to say otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Bama argues that gun deaths are reducing by what he calls 'a significant amount'.
By my calculation, it would take more than a century to bring it down to the levels of other civilised countries.
That ain't good enough.

Then might I suggest you move to one of those "civilized countries", I kind of like it here.
;-)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:41:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Every time a thread on guns happens Annie.

Yeah. And every time I show stats that gun-toters who say it's a good thing are in denial.
There's always Bama and the likes of you trying to defend the attrocious deaths by guns.

You can't fix stupid.


You sure can't because we have tried for years.
We show you how across the country we have places with your kind of gun laws up to bans next to places with far more reasonable laws.
In every one the place with the draconian laws has a far higher crime rate both with and without guns, it is safer to use a knife when the government makes sure the victim is unarmed..
In each case you blame the higher rate on the area with the laxer laws but never once come up with any explination for why they have lower crime rate.
Last but by no means least NOBODY SAYS GUN KILLINGS ARE OK. We say don't go after legitimat gun owners, go after those who missuse weapons of any kind.

And like I've said before - putting strict laws up in a tiny area where those laws don't apply to the shop next door is an experiment doomed to fail.
All the criminals do is go next door to get their weapons and walk back to do their crimes.
you need to apply laws on a nationwide basis AND ENFORCE THEM for it to have any chance of success.

And don't say it doesn't work because it does and has done everywhere else in the world.
It will never work in the US all the while they do a half-hearted job and don't bother to enforce the laws.


Why is it they NEVER have anything like the crime rates "around the corner" though you keep repeating your claim you never even attempt toexplain that little problem with your idea.
The other "little" problem with you claim is that the huge increase in murders was with weapons other than guns. Knifes clubs and the kike, once the government was good enough to disarm the potential victims.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/6/2017 5:43:58 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:43:48 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR


Islamic State magazine steers followers to U.S. gun shows for ‘easy’ access to weapons

It's just as well, then, that the occasional private citizen can use his gun to stop a crime.


I haven't been to a gun show, but I'm very doubtful that they just hand over firearms without running background checks and verifying identification.

Back Alley sales maybe. There are criminals who will break the law to make money, but legitimate gun shows have the ATF up their backsides.

I will contact friends who do go, and recently to verify my assumption.

Although it is pretty easy to buy a gun at a gun show, you can't buy one without a backgound check.
;-)


Actually, in a lot of states you can. In a lot of states private sales between people are legal. People do go to gun shows with their personal firearms and sell them to other private citizens. That is the "gun show loophole" you hear being bitched about so much.

Then it's not a "gun show loophole", it's a "personal firearms sale loophole".

(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:43:49 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
The problem isn't here. It's your mind numbed little control freak needing to bury your head because the big bad world is bad and scary.

The big bad world is only scary in the US.

Everywhere else where they have guns (yes, we do have them, just like you), is relatively peaceful.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Nnanji)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:44:18 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Correction, my friend lives in TN. Just in case the gun laws different in KY, I don't want to be putting the wrong info out there.

Pretymuch the same, Ky allows private sales witout checks and has no registration.

I went and looked up the gun laws in different states, out of curiosity.
I wanted to go deer hunting this year, and have my eye on a 243 rifle and scope.
I think I might hold out and check up on some Gun Shows. I've never been, sounds interesting.
Maybe I can pick up a 243 at one. I told the guy at the store I bought my other guns to hide the one I like. He sold it!

Prices might be better, selection is bound to be.
They are bound to have .243s

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:48:18 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Yes, my friend who frequents gun shows said background check only. Buy and walk out.

That shouldn't happen. I'm surprised it does.

What did you have in mind, a 30 day waiting list?
;-)


No, just the requirement to drop off your registration to local LEO. If they wanted to catch homegrown radicals, checking on who doesn't register might help. People move a great deal, America is big. So, that wouldn't be any guarantee. I just had a brain fart, forgot that the rules vary, state to state.


Okay but the NRA would say that such registration would put in the hands of "law enforcement" a list that would make it easy to disarm the US very quickly if the "government" thought it necessary.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:51:23 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Why is it they NEVER have anything like the crime rates "around the corner" though you keep repeating your claim you never even attempt toexplain that little problem with your idea.

If you live in a crime area and the criminals can't get their 'tools', they just go get the tools where they can.
The crime area doesn't move because the tools are easier to get elsewhere.
They get their tools and go back to where their crime is more effective/productive.

Simple explanation that you obviously never thought of.
And it's human nature too.

People will always go to the place where they can do 'business' and make money the easiest.
If they have to grab tools from elsewhere to do that, that's what they do.
They don't setup shop where the tools are easiest to obtain, they go where the business is the best.

Simples!

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 5:52:24 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Correction, my friend lives in TN. Just in case the gun laws different in KY, I don't want to be putting the wrong info out there.

That is one of the points used by the book "More Guns, Less Crime". In the US differing laws in one place can be compared to those in another and conclusions can be drawn.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 6:06:40 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

LMAO at Lott.joke right?????


Nope, have you read it?
;-)

It came out 12 years ago, and yes I have read it. I didnt fall under the bullshit spell then, and I dont buy it now.




I know when it came out and it is a plain and simple study of the laws and the results in the US of those laws, not some magic spell to fall under, unlike the misrepresentation of the fact and figures most anti-gun advocates spew out .

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 6:13:27 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
I know when it came out and it is a plain and simple study of the laws and the results in the US of those laws, not some magic spell to fall under, unlike the misrepresentation of the fact and figures most anti-gun advocates spew out .

I haven't read it but I'm willing to bet that it isn't 100% objective and unbiased.

A lot of the stats that we 'spew out' come from sources that are objective and are usually internationally neutral.
I would trust those figures far more than any book written by someone with a vested interest.


ETA: and it's waaay out of date too!


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 6:22:19 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Why is it they NEVER have anything like the crime rates "around the corner" though you keep repeating your claim you never even attempt toexplain that little problem with your idea.

If you live in a crime area and the criminals can't get their 'tools', they just go get the tools where they can.
The crime area doesn't move because the tools are easier to get elsewhere.
They get their tools and go back to where their crime is more effective/productive.

Simple explanation that you obviously never thought of.
And it's human nature too.

People will always go to the place where they can do 'business' and make money the easiest.
If they have to grab tools from elsewhere to do that, that's what they do.
They don't setup shop where the tools are easiest to obtain, they go where the business is the best.

Simples!

So the problem isn't the guns or crime would increase where they are easy to get.
And you don't even begin to explain why, during the DC ban the murder rate doubled but the muerder rate with firearms didn't increase. Surely they didn't stab and club people because they could get a gun around the corner.
You also ignore the fact that they couldn't sell a handgun to someone from out of state, they would ship it to a dealer in (in this case) DC to do otherwise would be a Federal offense. Again the gun isn't the problem , enforcement of the laws we already have (assuming as you want to they aren't enforced) would be the problem, and passing anpther law won't effect that, at least not positively.
Last, but not least, you are saying that for some reason the people in VA are just better people in DC, since DC is more black than VA that makes you sound racist.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 6:37:36 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		You can twist it to be racist if you like - I didn't bring race or colour into it; you have.

If DC has a bad rep because it has loads of gangs and drugs etc, then any ban will have little or no effect.
Your police won't do their job and 'law abiding citizens' run and hide and won't help either.
I have no idea if DC has more blacks than VA so don't try to play the race card with me.
If VA is just a better place to be, so be it.
If you want to believe it is the blacks that make DC a bad area - that makes YOU the racist, not me.

And obviously, those that already had firearms, used them like they always did do.
If new criminals wanted to get in on the act but couldn't get a firearm, they used something else instead.

Just like jihadists have worked out that getting hold of guns over here is getting harder for them.
It's not so easy to go on a shooting spree like they have done in the past 2-3 years.
So what do they do??
They change tactics and use trucks to run people down or use knives to attack people.
So the gun stats don't rise but knife crime does. How surprising!! DUH!

It really isn't so hard to work these things out Bama.
But people like you want to bury your heads and because the gun stats stay the same, the measures didn't work.
You are worse than a one-trick pony with no idea of alternatives.
People outside of the US seem to be more versatile and adaptable than US citizens who appear to be rather dense in some areas and can't think out of the box.
Shit, you guys can't even make tea!


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 6:53:18 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
...
Then explain to the rest of us how the gun crazy USA is the country with the highest number of deaths per capita?

People in the USA kill each other many different ways perhaps it has nothing to do with whether the US has guns or not but just that Americans like to kill each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Gun ownership in such high numbers creates death and misery - not reduce it.

Some proof of the correlation would be nice, the book I mentioned seems to say otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Bama argues that gun deaths are reducing by what he calls 'a significant amount'.
By my calculation, it would take more than a century to bring it down to the levels of other civilised countries.
That ain't good enough.

Then might I suggest you move to one of those "civilized countries", I kind of like it here.
;-)


He lives in the UK , why do you think he knows everything.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 6:55:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Why is it they NEVER have anything like the crime rates "around the corner" though you keep repeating your claim you never even attempt toexplain that little problem with your idea.

If you live in a crime area and the criminals can't get their 'tools', they just go get the tools where they can.
The crime area doesn't move because the tools are easier to get elsewhere.
They get their tools and go back to where their crime is more effective/productive.

Simple explanation that you obviously never thought of.
And it's human nature too.

People will always go to the place where they can do 'business' and make money the easiest.
If they have to grab tools from elsewhere to do that, that's what they do.
They don't setup shop where the tools are easiest to obtain, they go where the business is the best.

Simples!

Don't you realize that you just agreed that it the people, not the guns.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 7:01:52 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
Every time a thread on guns happens Annie.

Yeah. And every time I show stats that gun-toters who say it's a good thing are in denial.
There's always Bama and the likes of you trying to defend the attrocious deaths by guns.

You can't fix stupid.


You sure can't because we have tried for years.
We show you how across the country we have places with your kind of gun laws up to bans next to places with far more reasonable laws.
In every one the place with the draconian laws has a far higher crime rate both with and without guns, it is safer to use a knife when the government makes sure the victim is unarmed..
In each case you blame the higher rate on the area with the laxer laws but never once come up with any explination for why they have lower crime rate.
Last but by no means least NOBODY SAYS GUN KILLINGS ARE OK. We say don't go after legitimat gun owners, go after those who missuse weapons of any kind.

And like I've said before - putting strict laws up in a tiny area where those laws don't apply to the shop next door is an experiment doomed to fail.
All the criminals do is go next door to get their weapons and walk back to do their crimes.
you need to apply laws on a nationwide basis AND ENFORCE THEM for it to have any chance of success.

And don't say it doesn't work because it does and has done everywhere else in the world.
It will never work in the US all the while they do a half-hearted job and don't bother to enforce the laws.


Oh I get it, you live in the UK and have no clue about what the US is all about. Your country is too small to have real Federal and State laws. The US stands for United States, meaning it is a group of individual States bound together by agreement, much like the EU is trying to do, no thanks to the UK. That means that each State is responsible for governing itself and making its own laws and the Federal Government is suppose to be the "mediator" between the States to hold them together and smooth things out between them.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 7:03:01 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I know the book he quotes is waaay out of date.

I also know that every civilised country outside of the US has waaay less gun crime than you do.
What was it tamaka used to try and justify the figures??
741 people shot in the US - in a gun society.
We have had 4 in the same period - in a non-gun society.
You have 5x our population yet 185x the deaths by gun.
That proves our system works - our laws and our enforcement of them.
Something you guys don't apear to be able to achieve or even come close.

I don't need to know anything else.
Quite simply: gun culture = more deaths and almost 2 orders of magnitude out of proportion.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 7:06:36 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Oh I get it, you live in the UK and have no clue about what the US is all about. Your country is too small to have real Federal and State laws. The US stands for United States, meaning it is a group of individual States bound together by agreement, much like the EU is trying to do, no thanks to the UK. That means that each State is responsible for governing itself and making its own laws and the Federal Government is suppose to be the "mediator" between the States to hold them together and smooth things out between them.

"supposed to be" being the operative words. Clearly, it isn't working too well is it.

And I lived in the US for more than 8 months too - in NC and FL.
So at least I have a little first-hand experience of the US and not just a 2 week vacation in Disneyland.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 7:07:42 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Correction, my friend lives in TN. Just in case the gun laws different in KY, I don't want to be putting the wrong info out there.

Pretymuch the same, Ky allows private sales witout checks and has no registration.

I went and looked up the gun laws in different states, out of curiosity.
I wanted to go deer hunting this year, and have my eye on a 243 rifle and scope.
I think I might hold out and check up on some Gun Shows. I've never been, sounds interesting.
Maybe I can pick up a 243 at one. I told the guy at the store I bought my other guns to hide the one I like. He sold it!

Guns shows can be fascinating, even if you don't want to buy one. At one gun show I went to, a gun dealer had a Thompson sub-machine gun, like they had in all the old gangster movies and he allowed me to pick it up and hold it. I was amazed at how heavy it was.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 7:12:10 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
The problem isn't here. It's your mind numbed little control freak needing to bury your head because the big bad world is bad and scary.

The big bad world is only scary in the US.

Everywhere else where they have guns (yes, we do have them, just like you), is relatively peaceful.


You need to read a newspaper once in a while, because what you're saying "ain't necessarily so".

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: So Much for the gun owners dont stop crime.... - 5/6/2017 7:15:15 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
The problem isn't here. It's your mind numbed little control freak needing to bury your head because the big bad world is bad and scary.

The big bad world is only scary in the US.

Everywhere else where they have guns (yes, we do have them, just like you), is relatively peaceful.


You need to read a newspaper once in a while, because what you're saying "ain't necessarily so".

Ok... so quote me figures from any other civilised country that show where the gun deaths are higher than the US??


And I don't read newspapers - I have 2 different news channels streaming 24/7 in more than one room.
Newspapers are out of date before they get printed.


Oh, and the UK stands for United Kingdom.
We don't even have states - we have completely individual countries bound together!!


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 5/6/2017 7:20:28 PM >

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 100
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