RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man

RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:16:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD . BTW the cops had no more way of knowing he was mentally ill thanthey didthat the gun wasn't loaded Well of course they didn't. They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... It is equally possible they would have had a dead cop on their hands. But that doesn't matter does it?

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:18:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD . BTW the cops had no more way of knowing he was mentally ill thanthey didthat the gun wasn't loaded Well of course they didn't. They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... It is equally possible they would have had a dead cop on their hands, but who cares, not you.

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:20:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD . BTW the cops had no more way of knowing he was mentally ill thanthey didthat the gun wasn't loaded Well of course they didn't. They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... And it also could get a cop killed, it often does.

vincentML -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:21:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD . BTW the cops had no more way of knowing he was mentally ill thanthey didthat the gun wasn't loaded Well of course they didn't. They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Thank you. It is awful that Trump has proposed removing police training funds from the budget.

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:22:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD . BTW the cops had no more way of knowing he was mentally ill thanthey didthat the gun wasn't loaded Well of course they didn't. They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Or a dead cop which happens more often.

vincentML -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:31:17 PM)
quote: BTW the cops had no more way of knowing he was mentally ill thanthey didthat the gun wasn't loaded so you are still talking based on the cops being all knowing. Apparently Officer Mader knew. He was first on the scene.

vincentML -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:36:39 PM)
quote: No, it only has to do with race to bigots who see race in everything like you, and he wasn't discussing the other thread. Why do you feel the need for name calling? You ask a civilized question, I give you a polite answer you don't like, therefore I am a racist? [:'(]

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:37:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD . BTW the cops had no more way of knowing he was mentally ill thanthey didthat the gun wasn't loaded Well of course they didn't. They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Or an een better chance of a dead cop, just because he is mentally ill by no means makes him harmless.

vincentML -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:39:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Even your account indicates suicide by cop so they were just doing what the "victim" wanted. Just to be clear: are you saying that if a citizen goes into a police station and request he be shot to death the police have a duty to accommodate his request? Is that what the police mean by "serve and protect?" You are quite a humanitarian. [8\|] No, but when he walks into said station and threatens people he is asking for it. I was pointong out that in a suicide by cop case the fact that he was trying to get shot should carry weght. You are aware that that designation was made by the officer who was trying to de-escalate the situation?

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:47:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Even your account indicates suicide by cop so they were just doing what the "victim" wanted. Just to be clear: are you saying that if a citizen goes into a police station and request he be shot to death the police have a duty to accommodate his request? Is that what the police mean by "serve and protect?" You are quite a humanitarian. [8\|] No, but when he walks into said station and threatens people he is asking for it. I was pointong out that in a suicide by cop case the fact that he was trying to get shot should carry weght. You are aware that that designation was made by the officer who was trying to de-escalate the situation? Are you aware that the other cops couldn't know that? /this is why I said that it is possible that both were correct. Or do you expect cops to be telepathic. Are you aware that aperson trying to get the cops to kill him can still be very dangerous, after all you can't make any threat to stop them.

Kirata -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:51:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The first three boldened words of my OP will give you access to the link. Here it is again. Mea culpa. I read right past that first link, the one you included as part of your text. Not as an excuse, but the difference in color doesn't display well on my screen. The first link that caught my eye was the one you set off between paragraphs. You have my apologies. K.

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 7:52:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: No, it only has to do with race to bigots who see race in everything like you, and he wasn't discussing the other thread. Why do you feel the need for name calling? You ask a civilized question, I give you a polite answer you don't like, therefore I am a racist? [:'(] No, you are a racist because no matter what the facts you ignore anything that doesn't make the black person the innocent victim, and you only believe those sources which pretend that race is all that matteres. In this case there is no indication that things would have been different in any way if the "victim" had been white, you just want it to be.

Kirata -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 8:03:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Well hold on, let's walk this through... Mader was the first officer on the scene. When he arrived and confronted Williams, he said, the man was keeping his hands behind his back. Mader commanded Williams to show his hands and when they came down to his sides Mader saw he was holding a pistol. Mader drew his weapon. Williams allegedly screamed: “Just shoot me!” “I said, ‘I don’t wanna shoot you, brother, just put down the gun,’” Mader recalled. The officer has drawn his weapon and brought it to bear. Williams' gun arm remains down at his side. I would agree that at this point there is no reason to fire. “About that time two more cruisers arrived. At this point he starts to wave his gun at me and the other officers..." Sorry, end of chat time. You shoot. Source K.

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 9:13:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Well hold on, let's walk this through... Mader was the first officer on the scene. When he arrived and confronted Williams, he said, the man was keeping his hands behind his back. Mader commanded Williams to show his hands and when they came down to his sides Mader saw he was holding a pistol. Mader drew his weapon. Williams allegedly screamed: “Just shoot me!” “I said, ‘I don’t wanna shoot you, brother, just put down the gun,’” Mader recalled. The officer has drawn his weapon and brought it to bear. Williams' gun arm remains down at his side. I would agree that at this point there is no reason to fire. “About that time two more cruisers arrived. At this point he starts to wave his gun at me and the other officers..." Sorry, end of chat time. You shoot. Source K. But the cops were white, it had to be murder. Thanks for the new info.

BoscoX -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 9:48:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Well hold on, let's walk this through... Mader was the first officer on the scene. When he arrived and confronted Williams, he said, the man was keeping his hands behind his back. Mader commanded Williams to show his hands and when they came down to his sides Mader saw he was holding a pistol. Mader drew his weapon. Williams allegedly screamed: “Just shoot me!” “I said, ‘I don’t wanna shoot you, brother, just put down the gun,’” Mader recalled. The officer has drawn his weapon and brought it to bear. Williams' gun arm remains down at his side. I would agree that at this point there is no reason to fire. “About that time two more cruisers arrived. At this point he starts to wave his gun at me and the other officers..." Sorry, end of chat time. You shoot. Source K. Tweaker's psychotic visions had nothing in common with reality again? How shocking

Termyn8or -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/10/2017 11:16:25 PM)
FR Mader had every right to risk his life that way, but the city might have seen it as a big insurance claim. If he has a conscience well, good. In close proximity I can aim and fire fast enough when I see that arm start coming up (even with my eyesight). A cop has really good vision and with many revolvers you can tell if they're loaded when pointed at you. But not any other time, and not all revolvers either. With an automatic you can look at the hammer on many of them, but even with an exposed hammer it is hard to see that. If not cocked he has to pull the hammer back, if cocked it could be loaded or not. The idea here is that when a cop tells you to put the gun down, you put the gun down. If the guy really wanted to die he would have pointed the gun at the cop, but he didn't. Cops like that seem to care and are not trigger happy, but the trigger happy ones give them a bad name. I think Mader should win the lawsuit. As far as what to do with the other cops I wasn't there so I don't know what they saw or what was said or anything. And of course BLM will have something to say, noting probably that the cop who did shoot the guy was White. I didn't turn it into a racial issue. T^T

tweakabelle -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/11/2017 12:50:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Well hold on, let's walk this through... Yes good idea. Let's walk it through and let's walk it through thoroughly, without the benefit of the creative, selective editing you have employed in your post: quote: Mader was the first officer on the scene. When he arrived and confronted Williams, he said, the man was keeping his hands behind his back. Mader commanded Williams to show his hands and when they came down to his sides Mader saw he was holding a pistol. Mader drew his weapon. Williams allegedly screamed: “Just shoot me!” “I said, ‘I don’t wanna shoot you, brother, just put down the gun,’” Mader recalled. The officer has drawn his weapon and brought it to bear. Williams' gun arm remains down at his side. I would agree that at this point there is no reason to fire. So far so good. We are in agreement at this point. You go on to quote the Guardian report: quote: “About that time two more cruisers arrived. At this point he starts to wave his gun at me and the other officers..." ....and comment: quote: Sorry, end of chat time. You shoot. You chose to edit out the following statement by Mader, the sacked cop: quote: “He wasn’t angry,” he said of Williams, “he wasn’t aggressive, he didn’t seem in position to want to use a gun against anybody. He never pointed it at me. I didn’t perceive him as an imminent threat.” The bit that you chose to edit out is Mader's statement that the situation was under control and that there was "no imminent threat". This statement changes the entire tone of the confrontation from one of potentially lethal confrontation to something considerably more benign, a situation that, in Mader's assessment, posed no immediate threat to anyone. The bit that you chose to edit out to suit your take on events changes the picture dramatically and calls into question whether there was an imminent threat to anyone when the police started shooting. At the very least, it negates the rationalisation you advanced for the cops using deadly force. It appears that when the extra cruisers arrived on the scene, they took one look at the situation, saw a gun being waved about and decided that their best and only option was to use immediate, deadly force. It is not clear whether these 2 officers called upon the victim to put down his weapon, nor is there any suggestion that they communicated or co-ordinated with Mader in any way prior to using deadly force. All information and quotes used by both Kirata and myself are from this source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/10/rj-williams-shooting-stephen-mader-fired-lawsuit The cop's mistaken decision to shoot suggests to me that, at the very minimum, the police lacked training in de-escalating serious confrontations and displayed a readiness to deploy lethal force as a first option, when other non-lethal options were available. Your attempt at whitewashing the incident to exonerate the cops does no one any good - it is effectively an invitation to do precisely the same in the future should a similar situation arise, which given the numbers of guns circulating in the US, seems a probability rather than a possibility. There seems to me to be a deficiency in the training of these police with particular regard to de-escalating potentially violent confrontations. It is possible that other factors such as race played a part in this regrettable incident but I don't have enough information to make a call on that. However in this particular incident, it seems clear from Mader's statements that this death could have been avoided had the other cops reacted to the situation with the calmness and good judgement Mader exercised ie if they had the appropriate training and skills.

BamaD -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/11/2017 1:35:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle They shot the poor wretch before asking any questions. Had they bothered to try to talk to the guy first, it's possible that the presence of mental health issues would have become apparent pretty quickly. It often does ... Well hold on, let's walk this through... Yes good idea. Let's walk it through and let's walk it through thoroughly, without the benefit of the creative, selective editing you have employed in your post: quote: Mader was the first officer on the scene. When he arrived and confronted Williams, he said, the man was keeping his hands behind his back. Mader commanded Williams to show his hands and when they came down to his sides Mader saw he was holding a pistol. Mader drew his weapon. Williams allegedly screamed: “Just shoot me!” “I said, ‘I don’t wanna shoot you, brother, just put down the gun,’” Mader recalled. The officer has drawn his weapon and brought it to bear. Williams' gun arm remains down at his side. I would agree that at this point there is no reason to fire. So far so good. We are in agreement at this point. You go on to quote the Guardian report: quote: “About that time two more cruisers arrived. At this point he starts to wave his gun at me and the other officers..." ....and comment: quote: Sorry, end of chat time. You shoot. You chose to edit out the following statement by Mader, the sacked cop: quote: “He wasn’t angry,” he said of Williams, “he wasn’t aggressive, he didn’t seem in position to want to use a gun against anybody. He never pointed it at me. I didn’t perceive him as an imminent threat.” The bit that you chose to edit out is Mader's statement that the situation was under control and that there was "no imminent threat". This statement changes the entire tone of the confrontation from one of potentially lethal confrontation to something considerably more benign, a situation that, in Mader's assessment, posed no immediate threat to anyone. The bit that you chose to edit out to suit your take on events changes the picture dramatically and calls into question whether there was an imminent threat to anyone when the police started shooting. At the very least, it negates the rationalisation you advanced for the cops using deadly force. It appears that when the extra cruisers arrived on the scene, they took one look at the situation, saw a gun being waved about and decided that their best and only option was to use immediate, deadly force. It is not clear whether these 2 officers called upon the victim to put down his weapon, nor is there any suggestion that they communicated or co-ordinated with Mader in any way prior to using deadly force. All information and quotes used by both Kirata and myself are from this source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/10/rj-williams-shooting-stephen-mader-fired-lawsuit The cop's mistaken decision to shoot suggests to me that, at the very minimum, the police lacked training in de-escalating serious confrontations and displayed a readiness to deploy lethal force as a first option, when other non-lethal options were available. Your attempt at whitewashing the incident to exonerate the cops does no one any good - it is effectively an invitation to do precisely the same in the future should a similar situation arise, which given the numbers of guns circulating in the US, seems a probability rather than a possibility. There seems to me to be a deficiency in the training of these police with particular regard to de-escalating potentially violent confrontations. It is possible that other factors such as race played a part in this regrettable incident but I don't have enough information to make a call on that. However in this particular incident, it seems clear from Mader's statements that this death could have been avoided had the other cops reacted to the situation with the calmness and good judgement Mader exercised ie if they had the appropriate training and skills. And you managed not to notice that his attitude changed when the other cops showed up which totally altered the situation. Thus we are back to both Mader and the other cops were justified.

vincentML -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/11/2017 2:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: No, it only has to do with race to bigots who see race in everything like you, and he wasn't discussing the other thread. Why do you feel the need for name calling? You ask a civilized question, I give you a polite answer you don't like, therefore I am a racist? [:'(] No, you are a racist because no matter what the facts you ignore anything that doesn't make the black person the innocent victim, and you only believe those sources which pretend that race is all that matteres. In this case there is no indication that things would have been different in any way if the "victim" had been white, you just want it to be. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 37% of unarmed people killed by police were black in 2015 despite black people being only 13% of the U.S. population Unarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015 SOURCE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So far this year, 24 unarmed black men have been shot and killed by police - one every nine days, according to a Washington Post database of fatal police shootings. During a single two-week period in April, three unarmed black men were shot and killed. All three shootings were either captured on video or, in one case, broadcast live on local TV. Those 24 cases constitute a surprisingly small fraction of the 585 people shot and killed by police through Friday evening, according to The Post database. Most of those killed were white or Hispanic, and the vast majority of victims of all races were armed. However, black men accounted for 40 percent of the 60 unarmed deaths, even though they make up just 6 percent of the U.S. population. The Post's analysis shows that black men were seven times more likely than white men to die by police gunfire while unarmed. SOURCE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 4% The percentage of American law enforcement agencies that report any police-involved shootings to the FBI’s database — 700 out of a total of 17,000, according to USA Today. These agencies only record so-called “justifiable homicides,” or incidents in which an armed suspect was shot by police. All in all, we’re left with a reporting system that tells us very little about how many people are killed by police, and nothing about those killed in an unjust fashion. SOURCE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ These statistics are from different years. They represent an ongoing American tragedy. We maintain a colony of people within white America who are afraid to talk to a policeman for fear of being killed. I did not invent these facts. They are not new to our history. And they are not the complete reported story. Why don't you educate yourself to the reality instead of foolishly calling me names? I understand policing is hard and dangerous work and they can be proud they signed up for it, but we seem to have an epidemic of "lynching by cop" in America that no other industrial country has.

vincentML -> RE: White Cop Refused to Shoot Armed Black Man (5/11/2017 2:09:11 AM)
quote: And you managed not to notice that his attitude changed when the other cops showed up which totally altered the situation. Could have been the kid was frightened by the hostile approach of the two additional cops? Did he turn inward and run, thus getting shot in the back of the head? We don't know about attitudes at this point because the talking was drowned by the sound of gunfire.

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