quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

In fact - if you actually knew the case - Officer Shelby was the first responded on scene.
This fact has been proven through several sources.
you continue to ignore this and persist on the idea that she came later.

You're right. I was mistaken about her time of arrival. She was on a domestic disturbance call when she came upon the Crutcher car. According to her attorney however Crutcher did not call her over for help. But even that is not so important as with her training she should have understood why he did not obey her commands. His reaction was repeatedly to raise his arms. That is not a man who intends harm to anyone. That is a man who was incapacitated by drugs and could not explicitly perform the physical requirements to get down on his knees as she demanded. He pulled his hands into his pocket two or three times and each time nothing came out. So, no weapon. No reason to be afraid.

Here is a photo of Crutcher just before he was killed. Clearly, he was not a threat.
[image][img]http://i.imgur.com/c1X14LG.jpg[/img][/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

And that goes for a 20 year old black girl so there are the same odds she wouldn't ave been shot.
Why do people insist on the demographic, and not the action?

Right, a 20 year old black girl would never be physically accosted by the police [8|]

[image][img]http://i.imgur.com/Zlb8H7w.jpg[/img][/image]

Unless one of the cops put a bullet in that girl, all you are doing is proving that they would have handled a young black girl differently than the guy in this thread who was shot. Which is the point you have been arguing. Thanks for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Not to butt in ... but your use of the word 'execute' meant that she premeditatively set out to kill him. Which one could argue, shooting one shot doesn't kill a person 2 out of 3 times. Which is probably why they use a firing squad when they execute someone via a gun.

I doubt she thought to herself, "i really want to kill this guy" before she pulled the trigger.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

In fact - if you actually knew the case - Officer Shelby was the first responded on scene.
This fact has been proven through several sources.
you continue to ignore this and persist on the idea that she came later.

You're right. I was mistaken about her time of arrival. She was on a domestic disturbance call when she came upon the Crutcher car. According to her attorney however Crutcher did not call her over for help. But even that is not so important as with her training she should have understood why he did not obey her commands. His reaction was repeatedly to raise his arms. That is not a man who intends harm to anyone. That is a man who was incapacitated by drugs and could not explicitly perform the physical requirements to get down on his knees as she demanded. He pulled his hands into his pocket two or three times and each time nothing came out. So, no weapon. No reason to be afraid.

Here is a photo of Crutcher just before he was killed. Clearly, he was not a threat.
[image][img]http://i.imgur.com/c1X14LG.jpg[/img][/image]

The PCP did not keep him from going to his car.
The PCP did not negate the bomb threat.
PCP makes a person more dangerous, not less.
He didn't tell them he was getting back in the car whoopi, what do you think he was, a comic book villian?
On top of this even if everything that happened was just like you say, there is no indication race had anything to do with the inccident, which is truely the only thing you care about.
If he had been white you not only wouldn't care, you nor any of us would have even heard about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

And that goes for a 20 year old black girl so there are the same odds she wouldn't ave been shot.
Why do people insist on the demographic, and not the action?

Right, a 20 year old black girl would never be physically accosted by the police [8|]

[image][img]http://i.imgur.com/Zlb8H7w.jpg[/img][/image]

Unless one of the cops put a bullet in that girl, all you are doing is proving that they would have handled a young black girl differently than the guy in this thread who was shot. Which is the point you have been arguing. Thanks for that.

It is totally ridiculous that you would draw such a conclusion. These were two completely different sets of circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

And - given the individual has expressed intent to enter said motor vehicle (which can be considered a deadly weapon in it's own right), a disregard for the order of police, the unconfirmed potential threat of the vehicle potentially being an explosive hazard... reasonable probable cause is created in those actions which will endanger human life


We have satisfied both conditions in order for legal Justifiable Homicide to be committed by a Law Officer in the state of Oklahoma...

1. No where in any reports did Crutcher express intent of getting into the vehicle. The very last we see of Crutcher he had his right arm raised above his head as he faced his car door.

2. The vehicle can only be considered a deadly weapon if there is someone in the driver's seat, which was not the case when the man was killed.

3. If there was a danger of explosions the police should have, would have called for a bomb squad. They did not. You seem to be the only one who thinks there was a possibility of an explosion.

4. It is not unreasonable to think that someone on drugs would disregard police commands. Shelby had that training. She should have known better.

5.

quote:

We have satisfied both conditions in order for legal Justifiable Homicide to be committed by a Law Officer in the state of Oklahoma...

Oh, did the jury say that? Was that part of the judge's instructions to the jury? I don't think so. Not that I know of. Nope. You are wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Explain then, the value of your input that only one in three people accumulating bullets actually die from the experience, and relevance to the matter at hand.

Why don't you see if you can figure it out for yourself....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
It would have been a simple matter of trying the less lethal method first instead of just choosing to execute the guy.

You're going a bit over the top there, Igor. As far as I can see, she never chose to "execute" anybody. Only about one in three gunshot wounds are fatal. Absent a reason to believe that she intentionally fatally wounded him, all you can accuse her of is choosing to fire.

Take your time, it's a tough one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

In fact - if you actually knew the case - Officer Shelby was the first responded on scene.
This fact has been proven through several sources.
you continue to ignore this and persist on the idea that she came later.

You're right. I was mistaken about her time of arrival. She was on a domestic disturbance call when she came upon the Crutcher car. According to her attorney however Crutcher did not call her over for help. But even that is not so important as with her training she should have understood why he did not obey her commands. His reaction was repeatedly to raise his arms. That is not a man who intends harm to anyone. That is a man who was incapacitated by drugs and could not explicitly perform the physical requirements to get down on his knees as she demanded. He pulled his hands into his pocket two or three times and each time nothing came out. So, no weapon. No reason to be afraid.

Here is a photo of Crutcher just before he was killed. Clearly, he was not a threat.
[image][img]http://i.imgur.com/c1X14LG.jpg[/img][/image]

The PCP did not keep him from going to his car.
The PCP did not negate the bomb threat.
PCP makes a person more dangerous, not less.
He didn't tell them he was getting back in the car whoopi, what do you think he was, a comic book villian?
On top of this even if everything that happened was just like you say, there is no indication race had anything to do with the inccident, which is truely the only thing you care about.
If he had been white you not only wouldn't care, you nor any of us would have even heard about this.

Why are you bothered by my disgust over the long and on going history of our racism? Not only our racism, but the mistreatment of people of color throughout the world? If you are a Christian you should be upset by the lack of racial justice in human societies. Why aren't you troubled by racial injustice? What would Jesus say?

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

And - given the individual has expressed intent to enter said motor vehicle (which can be considered a deadly weapon in it's own right), a disregard for the order of police, the unconfirmed potential threat of the vehicle potentially being an explosive hazard... reasonable probable cause is created in those actions which will endanger human life


We have satisfied both conditions in order for legal Justifiable Homicide to be committed by a Law Officer in the state of Oklahoma...

1. No where in any reports did Crutcher express intent of getting into the vehicle. The very last we see of Crutcher he had his right arm raised above his head as he faced his car door.

2. The vehicle can only be considered a deadly weapon if there is someone in the driver's seat, which was not the case when the man was killed.

3. If there was a danger of explosions the police should have, would have called for a bomb squad. They did not. You seem to be the only one who thinks there was a possibility of an explosion.

4. It is not unreasonable to think that someone on drugs would disregard police commands. Shelby had that training. She should have known better.

5.

quote:

We have satisfied both conditions in order for legal Justifiable Homicide to be committed by a Law Officer in the state of Oklahoma...

Oh, did the jury say that? Was that part of the judge's instructions to the jury? I don't think so. Not that I know of. Nope. You are wrong.

1. Walking 30 feet while at gun point to the Driver Side Door of a Vehicle that is On and Idling is entirely meaningless then?
How do you get into a car? Through the passenger door?

2. That is factually incorrect. A deadly weapon is defined by the outcome. As such - disabling the breaks of a vehicle on an incline and letting it roll down a hill would cause it to be a 'deadly weapon' if it kills some one in the process even if no one is in the driver seat.

What's more - it doesn't matter because the person expressed intent to get into the driver seat. That technically would be no different then a guy reaching for a gun... What you're not allowed to shoot him until he has the gun in hand, loaded, and it pointed at you because until all those steps are done technically it is just a paper weight?

3. The bomb squad is sent out only when there is a probable threat, not when there is only 'suspicion of'. Police will investigate potential explosive threats to identify if the threat is probable or not, which then dictates the deployment of the bomb squad. Plenty of places have bomb scares called into them, but just because some one made a threat does not mean you have guys in blast suits and bomb drones deployed...

4. So because he is on drugs we should give him a pass? That is what you're saying?
Oh he is high on a drug which causes Aggression, violent behavior, and hallucination... but nah - just ignore it.

5. Graham v. Connor
490 U.S. 386 (1989)

US Supreme Court Case handling the use of deadly force by police:
The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation.

So yes - as per Graham v. Conner, the Judge instructs the Jury that those are the conditions in rendering judgement for this case.

Oh - and Yes - the Jury also said that when they handed down a 'Not Guilty' verdict in her Manslaughter Trial.
So the state has to recognize the death as a Justified Homicide.

i guess that is another bit of you ignoring facts that disagree with you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

The time when it becomes acceptable to shoot on site for putative "failure to obey police orders" is the time we become a police sate.

"Heil!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
I see what you're doing, there.

Do you tell everyone about your superpowers, or are we special?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
I see what you're doing, there.

Do you tell everyone about your superpowers, or are we special?

Yes, you are very special, your math and application thereby is impeccable, etc.

Such a sweet boy.

Want me to tuck you in, now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You are wrong on one count.
If the person has not started shooting, untill that happens the police have no right to feel threatened.
No police were dead or seriously injured so they had no right to fire. Now if he had been white that would have been a different story.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

The time when it becomes acceptable to shoot on site for putative "failure to obey police orders" is the time we become a police sate.

"Heil!"

The time when it becomes acceptable to flee and/or disobey police orders is the time when we fall into anarchy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

The time when it becomes acceptable to shoot on site for putative "failure to obey police orders" is the time we become a police sate.

"Heil!"

The time when it becomes acceptable to flee and/or disobey police orders is the time when we fall into anarchy.

Go with it as you wish, but tell us how a police order to show your grocery bags walking home from the store constitutes a 'safer society.' Or anything like a free society at all.

But you and others have made it plain that anything remotely resembling a free society scares the holy bejeezus out of you, and you and the others demand that everyone else in society adhere to your own fears.

Not gonna happen, sweetheart.

You suggest that I take my meds, while someone like you is holding the gun.

Not gonna happen, sweetheart.

Never.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

In fact - if you actually knew the case - Officer Shelby was the first responded on scene.
This fact has been proven through several sources.
you continue to ignore this and persist on the idea that she came later.

You're right. I was mistaken about her time of arrival. She was on a domestic disturbance call when she came upon the Crutcher car. According to her attorney however Crutcher did not call her over for help. But even that is not so important as with her training she should have understood why he did not obey her commands. His reaction was repeatedly to raise his arms. That is not a man who intends harm to anyone. That is a man who was incapacitated by drugs and could not explicitly perform the physical requirements to get down on his knees as she demanded. He pulled his hands into his pocket two or three times and each time nothing came out. So, no weapon. No reason to be afraid.

Here is a photo of Crutcher just before he was killed. Clearly, he was not a threat.
[image][img]http://i.imgur.com/c1X14LG.jpg[/img][/image]

The PCP did not keep him from going to his car.
The PCP did not negate the bomb threat.
PCP makes a person more dangerous, not less.
He didn't tell them he was getting back in the car whoopi, what do you think he was, a comic book villian?
On top of this even if everything that happened was just like you say, there is no indication race had anything to do with the inccident, which is truely the only thing you care about.
If he had been white you not only wouldn't care, you nor any of us would have even heard about this.

Why are you bothered by my disgust over the long and on going history of our racism? Not only our racism, but the mistreatment of people of color throughout the world? If you are a Christian you should be upset by the lack of racial justice in human societies. Why aren't you troubled by racial injustice? What would Jesus say?