RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message

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BoscoX -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 7:27:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Oh I did read that thread. And nowhere did it say that 1 billion people are waging all out war simultaneously and in a coordinated matter. There weren't millions of westerners killed in attacks. Entire nations aren't on the brink of collapse here in the west. So either their efforts are really half assed, or it's not happening in the real world despite your imaginations. Hmm, which one could it be...[8\|] Funny you should mention that What is the prophesy, the 12th Imam is supposed to unite them and we will all be killed or enslaved Saddam thought it was him, they all think it's coming Those who truly believe

BoscoX -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 7:33:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Oh I did read that thread. And nowhere did it say that 1 billion people are waging all out war simultaneously and in a coordinated matter. There weren't millions of westerners killed in attacks. Entire nations aren't on the brink of collapse here in the west. So either their efforts are really half assed, or it's not happening in the real world despite your imaginations. Hmm, which one could it be...[8\|] Funny you should mention that What is the prophesy, the 12th Imam is supposed to unite them and we will all be killed or enslaved Saddam thought it was him, they all think it's coming Those who truly believe Ask yourself - how many soldiers have been dispatched to stop the Muslim slaughter through time. In Africa, in Indonesia, in India and Europe, and everywhere else And the slaughter is still going on. 95% of violent conflicts around the globe today involve Muslims Not a coincidence

bounty44 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 7:55:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 there was quite a lot of Christian faith that went into the Nazi mindset. But in the end, religion wasn't the primary source of their doctrine... despite the latter part, im nevertheless going to say I look forward to a detailed exposition of the former part. exactly what parts of the Christian faith went into the Nazi mindset?

mnottertail -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 8:46:26 AM)
Catholicism, Inquisition.

Greta75 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 9:22:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Greta you can argue the same about any "prophet" from any holy book. Okay, argue it with Buddha and Jesus. How were they political? Jesus was persecuted by the ruling government then. He didn't even fight back. He just wanted to spread his gospel of a god he believed in, and that's it. And Buddha, Buddha couldn't care less about anything, he was just walking around seeking enlightenment. Buddha is like the most unpolitical person ever. He was a Prince, and he gave up his Princehood to live like a begger, gave up all his riches. How political is that? All he wanted was to be left alone and roam the world alone seeking enlightenment and finding a way of life without luxuries or comfort or material wants. And Buddhism is the most unattractive religion ever for anybody, because, it seriously sucks to do what Buddha does. You gotta live like a pauper. And own no material things. And desire nothing. Not even love. Living like a Buddhist monk means not having money at all, and survive on people's kindness, beg for food everyday and get a roof from people's kindness to house you. Buddhist people believe that to house a monk will bring them good karma. In a way, it's the art of freeloading. But hey, it's not easy to beg and take other people's charity all the time. None of them were strategising how to conquer Nations or building their own Army to feed their own political ambitions. They were just walking around telling stories basically like a normal peasant or a jobless bum with no ambition for anything whatsoever.

Saadia -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 9:41:59 AM)
quote: We know Muhammad grew up in Mecca, got chased out of Mecca, because the people there mocked and made fun of him. He moved to Medina, met his wifey there I believe, the one who employed him as her handy man, and was a wealthy lady who financially cared for him, and then later went back to take over the whole of Mecca. Now why was it necessary for him to attack Mecca at all? Or take over the whole place? Just because a bunch of Meccans killed his allies? That is so revengeful on his part. That is preaching violence as a solution to that problem. Imagine if ISIS today from Philippines, which they do, behead a few Europeans, which they have and imagine if Europeans go and conquer Philippines in response because of those incidents? You say that is peaceful response? Even if the Europeans says, "Do not harm women and children." That is an action of a warlord mentality. And not a nice man at all. Jesus offered himself to be tortured and die in the hands of his bullies because he was peaceful. He lead by example how to "turn the other cheek". He was demonstrating by example to leave their punishment to after life and not take matters into his own hands. That's what a peaceful person do. Muhammad attacked them back. See the difference? Muhammad conquered mecca becasuse there was a 10 years treaty with the meccans that the meccans broke by attacking Muslims. I think it would do you good if you learn what exactly happened before making assumptions. And you can learn from independent sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca. As I said, when Muhammad did enter mecca with his army, he commanded his followers not to shed any blood, and all those who had wronged him/chased him and his followers out/oppressed them/took away their lands and properties were forgiven. Nonetheless, I am not here to romanticize Muslim history. There was much that was done wrong, and perhaps the event that shed most bloodshed with among Muslims waging wars against themselves after the time of Muhammad. But none of this has any baring on how Muslims practice their faith. Your argument that Muhammad was a violent warlord is simply wrong if you actually read and study his life, this is not to say you have to agree with him or his logic, but he was not a violent man. There are too many arguments here happening at once. If you are truly sincere in having an honest discussion than we can discuss one point at a time, and not move on until a consensus has reached on one point. When you keep throwing around random incoherent points based on your limited and very little researched understanding of things (perhaps partly due to your personal experiences or what you read in the media) it's very difficult to follow a logical discussion. I am not here to convince you that Islam is right or has a perfect history. I have no problem admitting points we disagree on, even if you think the worse of it. quote: So end of the day, after all the long winded explanation. By the way. Sharia may mean law in another language but it refers to a specific type of law inspired by Islam, not just any type of law, thus calling it Sharia law would be accurate in English. And my question is simple. Would you be happy to live in a country subjected by the same sharia law rules as imposed by Muhammad? That is the question you dodged. Muhammad himself have implemented some pretty harsh punishments that includes death too. And Muhammad does preach death for apostates. And I am not sure about him sparing women and children since wasn't there an incident where he capture jews and sent all the women to be slaves to his men? Honestly, did you read ANYTHING at all I said? Are you seriously comprehending anything here? I have no problem engaging in meaningful discussions, but you have to actually follow the points and review it before your start writing. In my earlier post, I just explained to you why the so called Muslim countries adaption of sharia is completely wrong, and one that majority of the Muslims disagree with. So why on earth would I want to live in this so called Muslim countries? I don't agree with anything they're doing, and you should be troubled by Trump's closeness to these Saudis as much as I am. Please actually review what I have said before you write something.

Saadia -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 9:48:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 BTW Saadia, I have a very personal question for you. Did your Muslim parents circumcise you as a baby girl? I assume you were born in the US. In my country, all Muslim baby girls are circumcised as they believe in that Muhammad commands them to. BTW, I am equally against all circumcision, including when they do it to the males in the US. Greta, with all due respect, this is your problem. You have an inherent hatred of Islam based on your extremely low understanding and lack of sufficient knowledge. You're free to hate Islam and Muslims, that is your right and your choice, but at least do it on factual ground. I had never heard of female circumcision in Islam until very recently when I read about it in the media. And no one I know, no scholars I read about or family members or friends I know practiced it or knew anything about it because guess what? It is NOT routed in religion. In fact, the country you claim to be the epitome of Islam, Saudi Arabia, punishes those who carry out female circumcision. This is a practice rooted in North African culture (Muslim and non Muslim), and some middle eastern countries closer to North Africa, and mostly villages with less educated folks. Now, male circumcision, on the other hand, IS practiced by Muslims. If you disagree with that, it would be justified. Again, no one is trying to convert you here. [:D]

Greta75 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 9:52:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Saadia I just explained to you why the so called Muslim countries adaption of sharia is completely wrong, and one that majority of the Muslims disagree with. What you as a Muslim American is claiming that your version of Islam is right. But the place of Muhammad's birth place is wrong? As well as whole Muslim countries? Which Muslim country are your ancestors from? How can American Muslims be the right ones, while all these official Islamic scholars from WHOLE Islamic countries got it all wrong? Do you believe in authenticity of major Hadiths? And Saudi Arabia definitely has no laws in banning female circumcision and one minute you denounce them as practicing the most inaccurate version of Islam despite being where Islam originated from and the birth place of Muhammad and where he started Islam, and then quick to use them as the role model of Islam for FGM. Make up your mind on Saudi, what are they?

Saadia -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:01:59 AM)
quote: I just explained to you why the so called Muslim countries adaption of sharia is completely wrong, and one that majority of the Muslims disagree with. What you as a Muslim American is claiming that your version of Islam is right. But the place of Muhammad's birth place is wrong? As well as whole Muslim countries? Which Muslim country are your ancestors from? How can American Muslims be the right ones, while all these official Islamic scholars from WHOLE Islamic countries got it all wrong? Do you believe in authenticity of major Hadiths? And Saudi Arabia definitely has no laws in banning female circumcision. I never said anything about American Muslims. And just because someone is from the 'birth place' of the religion, does not necessarily make them holier or more correct. In fact, majority of the Muslims are NOT arab and live outside of the arab countries. And if you had reviewed the sources I provided, you would have learnt that majority of Muslims (not just those living in the West) disagree with the governments of so called Muslim countries and their practice of sharia. This means Muslims living in the Muslim countries are by large number opposed to their own gov't, except the Western nations are supporting these said oppressive regimes. I will look into the banning of female circumcision in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps you're right, it is not a law, but I do know for certain that even they condemn the act of female circumcision.

Greta75 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:09:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Saadia In fact, majority of the Muslims are NOT arab and live outside of the arab countries. And if you had reviewed the sources I provided, you would have learnt that majority of Muslims (not just those living in the West) disagree with the governments of so called Muslim countries and their practice of sharia. This means Muslims living in the Muslim countries are by large number opposed to their own gov't, except the Western nations are supporting these said oppressive regimes. So you are saying that Muslims in most Muslims countries disagree with the sharia laws set up by their own Islamic government, yet they keep electing those people to stay as government who keep those laws. Most Muslims I come in contact with are not Arab considering I am based in South East Asia. Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims are the people I regularly come into contact with. But every Muslim country has their atrocious Islamic practice. Can't even think of one friendly Muslim country. Except maybe for Kazakhstan or something, but Kazakh Muslims are probably one of the rare Muslims of the world, where the interpretation of their Islam is that Pork is permitted in their diet. Which would be Heresy even for Liberal leaning American Muslims.

Greta75 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:13:18 AM)
Saadia You kinda dodged the question about if you believe in the authenticity of major Hadiths or not? And kinda dodge the question if you think you would be perfectly fine and happy living by the laws set by Muhammad in a country run by Muhammad himself? Also, you won't reveal where your Muslim ancestry is from. I am quite familiar with the different type of Islam practiced in different Nations, so depending on which Nation you are from, it would provide more context. As I said, Kazazh Muslims will tell you Pork is okay for Muslims. But the rest of the world will disagree. And even authenticity of Hadiths, there is a group of American Muslims who only believe in pure Quran based Islam, and believe that all Hadiths are fudged and inaccurate. Because usually alot of Muhammad's bad behaviour are from the Hadiths.

Saadia -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:21:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: Saadia In fact, majority of the Muslims are NOT arab and live outside of the arab countries. And if you had reviewed the sources I provided, you would have learnt that majority of Muslims (not just those living in the West) disagree with the governments of so called Muslim countries and their practice of sharia. This means Muslims living in the Muslim countries are by large number opposed to their own gov't, except the Western nations are supporting these said oppressive regimes. So you are saying that Muslims in most Muslims countries disagree with the sharia laws set up by their own Islamic government, yet they keep electing those people to stay as government who keep those laws. Most Muslims I come in contact with are not Arab considering I am based in South East Asia. Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims are the people I regularly come into contact with. But every Muslim country has their atrocious Islamic practice. Can't even think of one friendly Muslim country. Except maybe for Kazakhstan or something, but Kazakh Muslims are probably one of the rare Muslims of the world, where the interpretation of their Islam is that Pork is permitted in their diet. Which would be Heresy even for Liberal leaning American Muslims. Well, if nothing else, we can both agree that yes, most Muslim countries have atrocious laws. I agree with you on that, and so do majority of the Muslims. And you say what, elections? [:D] Do you really believe there are free and fair elections there? The people don't really have a choice, especially when their gov't is supported by Western nations.

Greta75 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:26:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Saadia Well, if nothing else, we can both agree that yes, most Muslim countries have atrocious laws. I agree with you on that, and so do majority of the Muslims. And you say what, elections? [:D] Do you really believe there are free and fair elections there? The people don't really have a choice, especially when their gov't is supported by Western nations. Malaysia and Indonesia, I believe has free and fair elections generally but the Islamic segment has policies that give first rights to Muslims, and they ain't gonna vote for a non-Islamic government who is gonna give equal rights to non-muslims. And they are "supposingly" to be the more "moderate" ones. I don't think most Muslims would agree that Muslim countries has atrocious laws. I actually don't understand why you are clinging to your Islamic faith while tweaking it in a way where you could live with it, when I know you feel disgust for the things that happen in Real Muslim countries. Except that, you were brainwashed from young that you could not leave even if you wanted to leave.

Saadia -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:29:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Saadia You kinda dodged the question about if you believe in the authenticity of major Hadiths or not? And kinda dodge the question if you think you would be perfectly fine and happy living by the laws set by Muhammad in a country run by Muhammad himself? Also, you won't reveal where your Muslim ancestry is from. I am quite familiar with the different type of Islam practiced in different Nations, so depending on which Nation you are from, it would provide more context. As I said, Kazazh Muslims will tell you Pork is okay for Muslims. But the rest of the world will disagree. And even authenticity of Hadiths, there is a group of American Muslims who only believe in pure Quran based Islam, and believe that all Hadiths are fudged and inaccurate. Because usually alot of Muhammad's bad behaviour are from the Hadiths. Sorry, I didn't intentionally dodge the question. There are too many points jumping around at once. But I do believe in the accuracy of some hadiths. There are also a lot of contradictions in hadiths, so it's not always easy for a layman to quote them and take them at it's words without context. To give you an example, lot of Muslims in uneducated parts of the world believe a man is not allowed to get an 'uneven' hair cut because apparently the Prophet said in a hadith that it shouldn't be done. The context: he asked the mother of the boy why his hair cut was all over the place, and the mother replied because the kid was really good looking, she intentionally messed up his hair because she did not want anyone giving him an 'evil eye.' And the prophet told her not to do that again, and let the kid maintain his beauty and not be concerned about an evil eye. Anyway, I am just mentioning this to let you know that hadiths are not as easily understood or coherent, and there are multiple hadiths contradicting etc.... As for my background: middle eastern. I don't think it's important to know where from exactly.

paintaker11 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:40:45 AM)
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UllrsIshtar -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 10:55:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: The issue is directly that it's well-established that it's the goal of almost all Muslims to take over the world, infiltrate other countries, and eradicate value systems contrary to their own. Thus, whether they're an active terrorist, and support or denounce the use of violence to achieve those aims is really besides the point and irrelevant. Even non-terrorist Muslims who support non-violent means of infiltrating and taking over other countries are a direct enemy of the West. Not all terrorists are Muslims. But Muslims, terrorist or not, almost all are a direct and open threat to Western values. Have you got cites for any of this, Ishtar? You must realise that it looks like some of the most rabid Islamophobic lunacy ever posted on this forum - and that's quite some achievement. Actually, that is all stuff Saadia told me herself in private conversation with her, a few months ago. But I used to date a Turk, and afterwards hang out within other Muslim circles in Belgium, and Saadia wasn't the first Muslim I've heard these ideas from.

heavyblinker -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 11:07:22 AM)
'hope you're having a beautiful day?'

Saadia -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 8:45:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: Saadia Well, if nothing else, we can both agree that yes, most Muslim countries have atrocious laws. I agree with you on that, and so do majority of the Muslims. And you say what, elections? [:D] Do you really believe there are free and fair elections there? The people don't really have a choice, especially when their gov't is supported by Western nations. Malaysia and Indonesia, I believe has free and fair elections generally but the Islamic segment has policies that give first rights to Muslims, and they ain't gonna vote for a non-Islamic government who is gonna give equal rights to non-muslims. And they are "supposingly" to be the more "moderate" ones. I don't think most Muslims would agree that Muslim countries has atrocious laws. I actually don't understand why you are clinging to your Islamic faith while tweaking it in a way where you could live with it, when I know you feel disgust for the things that happen in Real Muslim countries. Except that, you were brainwashed from young that you could not leave even if you wanted to leave. I don't know much about Indonesia and Malaysia to speak for them. I can only speak of the populace I know. This is a 10 mins video and he is fairly popular among Muslims: https://youtu.be/dw_m1buT7M4 . I do believe most Muslims dislike gov't of middle eastern countries and their oppressive policies.

BoscoX -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 8:50:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: The issue is directly that it's well-established that it's the goal of almost all Muslims to take over the world, infiltrate other countries, and eradicate value systems contrary to their own. Thus, whether they're an active terrorist, and support or denounce the use of violence to achieve those aims is really besides the point and irrelevant. Even non-terrorist Muslims who support non-violent means of infiltrating and taking over other countries are a direct enemy of the West. Not all terrorists are Muslims. But Muslims, terrorist or not, almost all are a direct and open threat to Western values. Have you got cites for any of this, Ishtar? You must realise that it looks like some of the most rabid Islamophobic lunacy ever posted on this forum - and that's quite some achievement. Actually, that is all stuff Saadia told me herself in private conversation with her, a few months ago. But I used to date a Turk, and afterwards hang out within other Muslim circles in Belgium, and Saadia wasn't the first Muslim I've heard these ideas from. And she is one who you would call a "moderate Muslim"

Greta75 -> RE: The criticism of Trump Ramadan Message (5/29/2017 9:03:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX And she is one who you would call a "moderate Muslim" She is very interesting. She says all the Muslim countries of the world are practicing Islam wrongly. You know, that's a very typical western born Muslim type of explanation. The Islam we see practiced in whole Islamic countries, is not the true Islam. But that's like saying Catholicism practiced by the Vatican and the Pope is the fake Catholicism. I think reality is, she is very uncomfortable with alot of things Islam represents in this world, and the only way to deal with it is to say, they are all fake Islam. But her version is the real thing. Although it is still unclear precisely what her version is. She believes Muhammad have fought offensive wars. She believes in some parts of the Hadith. When you start believing only in the things you find comfortable to believe and disbelief the actions of the leader that she finds deplorable, claiming it's inaccurate depiction. It's like okay...., that's just like me saying ya know know. Christian hell is false, there is no hell. We are all going to heaven. Infact, I practically know a Christian who is part of a church who's whole belief is that, there is no such as hell in Christianity and everyone is going to heaven because God is so loving he wouldn't put anybody in hell. And hell is just allegory. Religion is complicated. Being Middle Eastern, to separate from Islam gotta be even tougher since, practically from birth, you are taught that you're a Muslim and that's all you know. I think she should leave Islam and just be her own person and screw this Muhammad dude who's controversial actions is causing alot of problems in this world. The luxury to leave Islam is one of the luxury that most Muslims do not have in Muslim countries. I'd treasure that freedom to do so if I were her!

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