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ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Oh I did read that thread. And nowhere did it say that 1 billion people are waging all out war simultaneously and in a coordinated matter. There weren't millions of westerners killed in attacks. Entire nations aren't on the brink of collapse here in the west. So either their efforts are really half assed, or it's not happening in the real world despite your imaginations. Hmm, which one could it be...

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ORIGINAL: BoscoX

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Oh I did read that thread. And nowhere did it say that 1 billion people are waging all out war simultaneously and in a coordinated matter. There weren't millions of westerners killed in attacks. Entire nations aren't on the brink of collapse here in the west. So either their efforts are really half assed, or it's not happening in the real world despite your imaginations. Hmm, which one could it be...

Funny you should mention that

What is the prophesy, the 12th Imam is supposed to unite them and we will all be killed or enslaved

Saddam thought it was him, they all think it's coming

Those who truly believe

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117
there was quite a lot of Christian faith that went into the Nazi mindset. But in the end, religion wasn't the primary source of their doctrine...

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Greta you can argue the same about any "prophet" from any holy book.

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We know Muhammad grew up in Mecca, got chased out of Mecca, because the people there mocked and made fun of him. He moved to Medina, met his wifey there I believe, the one who employed him as her handy man, and was a wealthy lady who financially cared for him, and then later went back to take over the whole of Mecca. Now why was it necessary for him to attack Mecca at all? Or take over the whole place? Just because a bunch of Meccans killed his allies? That is so revengeful on his part. That is preaching violence as a solution to that problem. Imagine if ISIS today from Philippines, which they do, behead a few Europeans, which they have and imagine if Europeans go and conquer Philippines in response because of those incidents? You say that is peaceful response? Even if the Europeans says, "Do not harm women and children." That is an action of a warlord mentality. And not a nice man at all. Jesus offered himself to be tortured and die in the hands of his bullies because he was peaceful. He lead by example how to "turn the other cheek". He was demonstrating by example to leave their punishment to after life and not take matters into his own hands. That's what a peaceful person do. Muhammad attacked them back. See the difference?

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So end of the day, after all the long winded explanation. By the way. Sharia may mean law in another language but it refers to a specific type of law inspired by Islam, not just any type of law, thus calling it Sharia law would be accurate in English.
And my question is simple. Would you be happy to live in a country subjected by the same sharia law rules as imposed by Muhammad? That is the question you dodged. Muhammad himself have implemented some pretty harsh punishments that includes death too. And Muhammad does preach death for apostates.

And I am not sure about him sparing women and children since wasn't there an incident where he capture jews and sent all the women to be slaves to his men?

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

BTW Saadia, I have a very personal question for you. Did your Muslim parents circumcise you as a baby girl? I assume you were born in the US.

In my country, all Muslim baby girls are circumcised as they believe in that Muhammad commands them to.

BTW, I am equally against all circumcision, including when they do it to the males in the US.

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ORIGINAL: Saadia
I just explained to you why the so called Muslim countries adaption of sharia is completely wrong, and one that majority of the Muslims disagree with.

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I just explained to you why the so called Muslim countries adaption of sharia is completely wrong, and one that majority of the Muslims disagree with.


What you as a Muslim American is claiming that your version of Islam is right. But the place of Muhammad's birth place is wrong? As well as whole Muslim countries? Which Muslim country are your ancestors from?

How can American Muslims be the right ones, while all these official Islamic scholars from WHOLE Islamic countries got it all wrong?

Do you believe in authenticity of major Hadiths?

And Saudi Arabia definitely has no laws in banning female circumcision.

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ORIGINAL: Saadia
In fact, majority of the Muslims are NOT arab and live outside of the arab countries. And if you had reviewed the sources I provided, you would have learnt that majority of Muslims (not just those living in the West) disagree with the governments of so called Muslim countries and their practice of sharia. This means Muslims living in the Muslim countries are by large number opposed to their own gov't, except the Western nations are supporting these said oppressive regimes.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

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ORIGINAL: Saadia
In fact, majority of the Muslims are NOT arab and live outside of the arab countries. And if you had reviewed the sources I provided, you would have learnt that majority of Muslims (not just those living in the West) disagree with the governments of so called Muslim countries and their practice of sharia. This means Muslims living in the Muslim countries are by large number opposed to their own gov't, except the Western nations are supporting these said oppressive regimes.

So you are saying that Muslims in most Muslims countries disagree with the sharia laws set up by their own Islamic government, yet they keep electing those people to stay as government who keep those laws.
Most Muslims I come in contact with are not Arab considering I am based in South East Asia. Malaysian and Indonesian Muslims are the people I regularly come into contact with. But every Muslim country has their atrocious Islamic practice. Can't even think of one friendly Muslim country. Except maybe for Kazakhstan or something, but Kazakh Muslims are probably one of the rare Muslims of the world, where the interpretation of their Islam is that Pork is permitted in their diet. Which would be Heresy even for Liberal leaning American Muslims.

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ORIGINAL: Saadia
Well, if nothing else, we can both agree that yes, most Muslim countries have atrocious laws. I agree with you on that, and so do majority of the Muslims. And you say what, elections? Do you really believe there are free and fair elections there? The people don't really have a choice, especially when their gov't is supported by Western nations.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

Saadia

You kinda dodged the question about if you believe in the authenticity of major Hadiths or not?

And kinda dodge the question if you think you would be perfectly fine and happy living by the laws set by Muhammad in a country run by Muhammad himself?

Also, you won't reveal where your Muslim ancestry is from. I am quite familiar with the different type of Islam practiced in different Nations, so depending on which Nation you are from, it would provide more context. As I said, Kazazh Muslims will tell you Pork is okay for Muslims. But the rest of the world will disagree.

And even authenticity of Hadiths, there is a group of American Muslims who only believe in pure Quran based Islam, and believe that all Hadiths are fudged and inaccurate. Because usually alot of Muhammad's bad behaviour are from the Hadiths.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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The issue is directly that it's well-established that it's the goal of almost all Muslims to take over the world, infiltrate other countries, and eradicate value systems contrary to their own.
Thus, whether they're an active terrorist, and support or denounce the use of violence to achieve those aims is really besides the point and irrelevant. Even non-terrorist Muslims who support non-violent means of infiltrating and taking over other countries are a direct enemy of the West.

Not all terrorists are Muslims. But Muslims, terrorist or not, almost all are a direct and open threat to Western values.

Have you got cites for any of this, Ishtar? You must realise that it looks like some of the most rabid Islamophobic lunacy ever posted on this forum - and that's quite some achievement.

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ORIGINAL: Greta75

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ORIGINAL: Saadia
Well, if nothing else, we can both agree that yes, most Muslim countries have atrocious laws. I agree with you on that, and so do majority of the Muslims. And you say what, elections? Do you really believe there are free and fair elections there? The people don't really have a choice, especially when their gov't is supported by Western nations.

Malaysia and Indonesia, I believe has free and fair elections generally but the Islamic segment has policies that give first rights to Muslims, and they ain't gonna vote for a non-Islamic government who is gonna give equal rights to non-muslims.

And they are "supposingly" to be the more "moderate" ones.

I don't think most Muslims would agree that Muslim countries has atrocious laws.

I actually don't understand why you are clinging to your Islamic faith while tweaking it in a way where you could live with it, when I know you feel disgust for the things that happen in Real Muslim countries. Except that, you were brainwashed from young that you could not leave even if you wanted to leave.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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The issue is directly that it's well-established that it's the goal of almost all Muslims to take over the world, infiltrate other countries, and eradicate value systems contrary to their own.
Thus, whether they're an active terrorist, and support or denounce the use of violence to achieve those aims is really besides the point and irrelevant. Even non-terrorist Muslims who support non-violent means of infiltrating and taking over other countries are a direct enemy of the West.

Not all terrorists are Muslims. But Muslims, terrorist or not, almost all are a direct and open threat to Western values.

Have you got cites for any of this, Ishtar? You must realise that it looks like some of the most rabid Islamophobic lunacy ever posted on this forum - and that's quite some achievement.

Actually, that is all stuff Saadia told me herself in private conversation with her, a few months ago.

But I used to date a Turk, and afterwards hang out within other Muslim circles in Belgium, and Saadia wasn't the first Muslim I've heard these ideas from.

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ORIGINAL: BoscoX
And she is one who you would call a "moderate Muslim"