RE: Is every American is entitled to eat?

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Aylee -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 12:33:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML FR From the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the United States is a party unless Mr. Trump had a twitter fit last night and dissolved our involvement in which case the ghost of Eleanore Roosevelt will forever haunt him . . . Realizing that Americans do not pay much attention to the UN, the morality of the issue is clearly available even for the stupefied free-marketers. . . . Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. It is a moral issue, a human rights issue, not a financial issue. Sure, everyone has a "right" to that. But a right to something is not the same as a right to have it provided to them.

WickedsDesire -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 12:34:24 PM)
I omitted the eat gun deliberately due to its meaning ;) lead, and flint tap water etc ;) There minds are simple in the main Understand fully the poverty of them so i omitted the third line strange you noticed that englander

WhoreMods -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 12:38:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire One more wafer thin mint I view England as little better and for the record SNL fan they stole it from here: Monty Python-The Meaning of Life-Death And there was me thinking you'd be a fish-slapping dance man...

vincentML -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 5:35:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML FR From the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the United States is a party unless Mr. Trump had a twitter fit last night and dissolved our involvement in which case the ghost of Eleanore Roosevelt will forever haunt him . . . Realizing that Americans do not pay much attention to the UN, the morality of the issue is clearly available even for the stupefied free-marketers. . . . Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. It is a moral issue, a human rights issue, not a financial issue. Sure, everyone has a "right" to that. But a right to something is not the same as a right to have it provided to them. The alternative being to take what they need from someone else?

Aylee -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 5:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML FR From the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the United States is a party unless Mr. Trump had a twitter fit last night and dissolved our involvement in which case the ghost of Eleanore Roosevelt will forever haunt him . . . Realizing that Americans do not pay much attention to the UN, the morality of the issue is clearly available even for the stupefied free-marketers. . . . Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. It is a moral issue, a human rights issue, not a financial issue. Sure, everyone has a "right" to that. But a right to something is not the same as a right to have it provided to them. The alternative being to take what they need from someone else? To figure out how to provide it for themselves. The second amendment says that I have the right to a firearm. Should one be provided to me or do I need to figure out how to provide one to myself? How is a right to food or housing different from the right of self-defense?

tamaka -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:02:33 PM)
Perhaps God could rain down some more manna from heaven.

Aylee -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:08:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka Perhaps God could rain down some more manna from heaven. Well, except Thessalonians 3:10 says, "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." So, I think the manna days are over.

vincentML -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:23:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML FR From the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the United States is a party unless Mr. Trump had a twitter fit last night and dissolved our involvement in which case the ghost of Eleanore Roosevelt will forever haunt him . . . Realizing that Americans do not pay much attention to the UN, the morality of the issue is clearly available even for the stupefied free-marketers. . . . Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. It is a moral issue, a human rights issue, not a financial issue. Sure, everyone has a "right" to that. But a right to something is not the same as a right to have it provided to them. The alternative being to take what they need from someone else? To figure out how to provide it for themselves. The second amendment says that I have the right to a firearm. Should one be provided to me or do I need to figure out how to provide one to myself? How is a right to food or housing different from the right of self-defense? Food and shelter are human rights; guns are civil rights. The former are conferred by my life as a human in nature, the latter conferred by a legislative process in 1789. Nature takes precedence.

bounty44 -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:29:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML FR From the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the United States is a party unless Mr. Trump had a twitter fit last night and dissolved our involvement in which case the ghost of Eleanore Roosevelt will forever haunt him . . . Realizing that Americans do not pay much attention to the UN, the morality of the issue is clearly available even for the stupefied free-marketers. . . . Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. It is a moral issue, a human rights issue, not a financial issue. Sure, everyone has a "right" to that. But a right to something is not the same as a right to have it provided to them. this has been talking about before---our bill of rights is one of "negative rights" and the UN stuff Vincent is referring to are "positive rights." the former elucidate what the government CANNOT do/what people are FREE to do. the latter however, imposes an obligation on others and is not consistent with liberty.

vincentML -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:32:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka Perhaps God could rain down some more manna from heaven. Well, except Thessalonians 3:10 says, "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." So, I think the manna days are over. But righteousness is not. . . Luke 14:12-14 "He said also to the one who had invited him, ‘When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.’'

vincentML -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:38:50 PM)
quote: this has been talking about before---our bill of rights is one of "negative rights" and the UN stuff Vincent is referring to are "positive rights." the former elucidate what the government CANNOT do/what people are FREE to do. the latter however, imposes an obligation on others and is not consistent with liberty. If you do not wish to share the obligations of our social contract you should not expect to enjoy the benefits. Would you make that argument of personal liberty to the Selective Service Board if you were drafted into the military?

BoscoX -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:48:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Food and shelter are human rights; guns are civil rights. The former are conferred by my life as a human in nature, the latter conferred by a legislative process in 1789. Nature takes precedence. In nature, animals aren't fed, they have to work to eat and if they want shelter that requires some form of physical exertion as well If all the work you are willing to do is chew grass and bark and pull a cardboard box over your head at night, have at it. Your "rights" are thereby fulfilled

BoscoX -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:52:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka Perhaps God could rain down some more manna from heaven. Well, except Thessalonians 3:10 says, "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." So, I think the manna days are over. But righteousness is not. . . Luke 14:12-14 "He said also to the one who had invited him, ‘When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.’' Strange Nothing about Roman thug soldiers forcibly taking people's wealth to give to Caesar though, so he can lord it over the peasantry while living high on the hog? Are you sure

tamaka -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:52:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Food and shelter are human rights; guns are civil rights. The former are conferred by my life as a human in nature, the latter conferred by a legislative process in 1789. Nature takes precedence. In nature, animals aren't fed, they have to work to eat and if they want shelter that requires some form of physical exertion as well If all the work you are willing to do is chew grass and bark and pull a cardboard box over your head at night, have at it. Your "rights" are thereby fulfilled I keep telling my dog how grateful he should be that he's not wild.

BoscoX -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 6:54:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Food and shelter are human rights; guns are civil rights. The former are conferred by my life as a human in nature, the latter conferred by a legislative process in 1789. Nature takes precedence. In nature, animals aren't fed, they have to work to eat and if they want shelter that requires some form of physical exertion as well If all the work you are willing to do is chew grass and bark and pull a cardboard box over your head at night, have at it. Your "rights" are thereby fulfilled I keep telling my dog how grateful he should be that he's not wild. I've seen what feral dogs eat, and it ain't pretty sometimes

vincentML -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 7:03:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoscoX quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Food and shelter are human rights; guns are civil rights. The former are conferred by my life as a human in nature, the latter conferred by a legislative process in 1789. Nature takes precedence. In nature, animals aren't fed, they have to work to eat and if they want shelter that requires some form of physical exertion as well If all the work you are willing to do is chew grass and bark and pull a cardboard box over your head at night, have at it. Your "rights" are thereby fulfilled In nature there is some group support (wolf packs and lions) but humans have evolved through greater altruism and mutual support within groups. So, not only is mutual support an evolutionary advantage it is also a moral imperative that arises from our compassion. We call it humanism and/or theology. Being a member of human society requires each of us to fulfill obligations. If our representatives decide it is to the benefit to the entire group to alleviate hunger and lack of shelter, do we have the liberty to decline to participate? I don't think so.

Aylee -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 7:16:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML FR From the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the United States is a party unless Mr. Trump had a twitter fit last night and dissolved our involvement in which case the ghost of Eleanore Roosevelt will forever haunt him . . . Realizing that Americans do not pay much attention to the UN, the morality of the issue is clearly available even for the stupefied free-marketers. . . . Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. It is a moral issue, a human rights issue, not a financial issue. Sure, everyone has a "right" to that. But a right to something is not the same as a right to have it provided to them. The alternative being to take what they need from someone else? To figure out how to provide it for themselves. The second amendment says that I have the right to a firearm. Should one be provided to me or do I need to figure out how to provide one to myself? How is a right to food or housing different from the right of self-defense? Food and shelter are human rights; guns are civil rights. The former are conferred by my life as a human in nature, the latter conferred by a legislative process in 1789. Nature takes precedence. What food and shelter to you get because you are a human in nature? Fiddleheads in the spring? Mushrooms? A cave? A pile of leaves? I suppose it would depend on where your physical form is currently residing. I am pretty sure that self-defense is a much more "natural" right than food and shelter.

vincentML -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 7:41:24 PM)
quote: What food and shelter to you get because you are a human in nature? Fiddleheads in the spring? Mushrooms? A cave? A pile of leaves? I suppose it would depend on where your physical form is currently residing. I am pretty sure that self-defense is a much more "natural" right than food and shelter. The question in this thread is not what do I get but what am I entitled to as an American. In Nature man is at war with all other men; we fall into a “survival of the fittest” (Spencer) and life is “short and brutish” (Hobbes) Individual self-defense is inadequate. That is why we formed a social contract and gave up some of our liberties to a central authority. In addition, we have developed a high sense of moral authority which leads us to support each other. Poverty and hunger are immoral and a failure of the social contract.

tamaka -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/30/2017 7:48:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: What food and shelter to you get because you are a human in nature? Fiddleheads in the spring? Mushrooms? A cave? A pile of leaves? I suppose it would depend on where your physical form is currently residing. I am pretty sure that self-defense is a much more "natural" right than food and shelter. The question in this thread is not what do I get but what am I entitled to as an American. In Nature man is at war with all other men; we fall into a “survival of the fittest” (Spencer) and life is “short and brutish” (Hobbes) Individual self-defense is inadequate. That is why we formed a social contract and gave up some of our liberties to a central authority. In addition, we have developed a high sense of moral authority which leads us to support each other. Poverty and hunger are immoral and a failure of the social contract. Actually we are debating whether such a contract exists, right? I mean, if you read the book Stone Soup, everyone brought something.

bounty44 -> RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? (5/31/2017 6:26:32 AM)
Vincent, if jesus himself is saying "you will always have the poor with you", then "poverty and hunger" are not failures of the social contract per se---they are a part of the fallen nature of the world. in light of that "contract" consider our founding---"that governments are created to protect our inalienable rights (those that come from god)...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..." that sentiment cannot rightly be construed to mean that governments exist to make sure we are fed, but rather that no man can take our lives, or our freedom, and that with our lives and freedom we can pursue our own course of actions. if you find poverty and hunger immoral, that's commendable---I would ask you what you yourself are doing about it other than voting for politicians that want to coerce others through taxation to address the matter? if you are indeed doing something---donating to food pantries, volunteering to cook or deliver meals, etc, then that is a right moral response. if you are forcing me and others to do so by taking our money, even if the ends are "good", you have NOT done something morally good.

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