RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 9:38:20 AM)

What a horrifying disaster. The vision of the entire block in flames was harrowing. My thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones or whose loved ones are still unaccounted for.

I have seen some reports that the residents have been complaining to the council for at least 7 months that their building was a fire trap. It appears that the council failed to act on these complaints.

However it's early days yet and it might be prudent to withhold judgement until all the facts emerge.




HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 9:50:34 AM)

An event of this type always brings out a chorus of, "I told you this would happen." I have to wonder how many of those complaints were put into writing and actually sent to the proper authorities. I doubt we will ever know.




Greta75 -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 9:57:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

An event of this type always brings out a chorus of, "I told you this would happen." I have to wonder how many of those complaints were put into writing and actually sent to the proper authorities. I doubt we will ever know.

It was because the council has acknowledged that leading up this, they have received alot of complains. It must be ALOT and officially recorded for them to be unable to deny it.




CaptR -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 9:59:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

London fire: Baby caught after being 'dropped to safety from tower'

A baby was caught by a member of the public after being dropped from a window as fire engulfed London's Grenfell Tower, a witness has said.

Samira Lamrani said she saw a woman gesturing to the crowd below that she was about to drop her baby from "the ninth or 10th floor" of the building.

A man ran forward and managed to catch the baby, she said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40272168
Six people have died and 20 people are in critical care after a huge fire engulfed a west London tower block on Tuesday night.

The building is still on fire and many people are unaccounted for.

What happened?
The fire was reported at the 24-storey block, Grenfell Tower, in north Kensington, 00:54 BST.
It is believed to have started on the fourth floor and spread incredibly quickly.
Forty fire engines and around 200 firefighters went to tackle the blaze.

Thoughts and prayers go out to all the families affected by this tragic event. How horrible to have no choice but to drop your child from a high rise in the hopes they'll survive. I read the occupants of the building had been complaining of the risk of fire for some time. If the building owners were criminally negligent may they face the harshest penalty. Accident or arson the loss of life is heartbreaking.




WickedsDesire -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 9:59:28 AM)

It does hindsight shrugs. But it was gutted.

Now, if they can enter, they will try and establish if the fire was accidental or deliberate..




tj444 -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 10:07:13 AM)

~~ fast reply~~

from the close-up exterior pic on this site it shows just how the cladding burned.. it looks like it went up extremely easily.. a lot of shite is gonna hit the fan over this & any other buildings like this..

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/europe/london-fire-live-updates/




WhoreMods -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 10:12:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

~~ fast reply~~

from the close-up exterior pic on this site it shows just how the cladding burned.. it looks like it went up extremely easily.. a lot of shite is gonna hit the fan over this & any other buildings like this..

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/europe/london-fire-live-updates/


Good point: that crap could well be all over every other building in Kensington and Chelsea they renovated at the same time, couldn't it?




PeonForHer -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 11:05:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

~~ fast reply~~

from the close-up exterior pic on this site it shows just how the cladding burned.. it looks like it went up extremely easily.. a lot of shite is gonna hit the fan over this & any other buildings like this..

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/europe/london-fire-live-updates/


Good point: that crap could well be all over every other building in Kensington and Chelsea they renovated at the same time, couldn't it?



It's baffling that that cladding was given the OK without some pretty stringent testing for flammability. I don't get that.




WhoreMods -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 11:07:28 AM)

It's possible that some excuse was found not to bother with the testing at all: you know what these north London councils are like.




LadyConstanze -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 11:10:16 AM)

Same here, if you do rent out a flat or a house, it's basically fire security that they check, how a block of council housing could not have a sprinkler system and highly flammable cladding is beyond me...

The fact of BoJo drastically limiting the fire services in London possibly also played a part...




PeonForHer -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 11:23:34 AM)

Not just the cladding - I've read of alarms that didn't sound; sprinkler systems that didn't work ... 'a Third World sort of disaster' was one criticism. What a total bollocks up.




WickedsDesire -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 12:09:54 PM)

I noticed the water streams and they were feeble, truly.

she means Boris Johnson - beware his second coming you englanders




MercTech -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 1:53:22 PM)

Large installations are often owned by corporations. Corporations want to cut cost wherever possible. One of the more and more common ways to cut cost is to lay off all the building maintenance staff and instead contract with a janitorial services company. All well and good if what you are concerned with are the flower beds being weeded, hallway carpets cleaned, and exterior windows washed.

But, there is no longer anyone identifiable by name with the responsibility for preventive maintenance on systems such as alarms, heating, cooling, and fire suppression. The building manager is just supposed to call and get permission to call a repair person when something is not functioning right. And, the manager gets his annual bonus reduced for spending too much on expenses not budgeted for.

Do you think this common business model is an accident in waiting? Will the owner of the building deflect like crazy any question about their business practices being a root cause?
... been there, worked the cleanup.




tj444 -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/14/2017 7:49:02 PM)

~~ fast reply ~~

a little more info.. of course we will have to wait for the official investigation which could take weeks/months..

The London Fire: What We Know
LONDON — A fire tore through a 24-story West London apartment building early Wednesday, killing at least 12 people and injuring more than 70. The cause is still under investigation.
How did the fire start?

The fire was first reported at 12:54 a.m. The site was Grenfell Tower in North Kensington, built in 1974, which housed at least 400 people in 120 apartments across 20 residential floors. Firefighters responded within six minutes. According to the London Fire Brigade, the blaze began on the second floor and spread quickly to the top.

The brigade’s leader, Commissioner Dany Cotton, said it was too early to speculate on the cause. Early news reports said that the fire may have been caused by the explosion of an electrical appliance, but nothing has been confirmed.

How did it spread so quickly?

That is a major question for investigators. Usually, high-rise buildings are designed to contain a fire in its unit of origin, and in contemporary buildings, alarm systems and sprinklers are the norm.

Grenfell Tower was recently fitted with exterior aluminum cladding. Christopher Miers, the managing director of Probyn-Miers, a forensic architecture firm that examines buildings that are defective or fire damaged, said: “It’s a possibility that there are areas in the external wall system that played a role and it’s an area that would need to be considered.”

Whether the cladding had a role in this case was not clear, but such cladding, which often consists of aluminum sheets sandwiched over some kind of insulation, has been seen as a factor in past blazes, including three major high-rise fires in Dubai.

The United States and Britain have tougher regulations on the potential flammability of internal material used in cladding, but other factors — such as how panels are made and installed — could come into play.

“They are safe to use, but they need to be properly used and they need to be well constructed and the building needs to be well managed,” Mr. Miers said.

David King, a building engineer in Maidstone, England, said the cladding might have helped the blaze leap from floor to floor.

“I’ve seen how the flames were coming out of the windows and going up the outside, so that’s one possible explanation,” he said.

How did the authorities respond?
More than 250 firefighters, more than 100 medics and 100 police officers were sent to the scene, according to Mayor Sadiq Khan. Ambulances took 64 patients to hospitals, while an additional 10 patients went on their own; 20 people were said to be in critical condition.

Commissioner Cotton said that a structural engineer had been dispatched to assess whether the tower could collapse, but firefighters were likely to remain there for 24 hours.

Who owns the building?

Grenfell Tower is owned by the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, one of 32 boroughs that make up Greater London, along with the City, London’s financial district. Day-to-day management is contracted out to the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organization.

In May 2016, the building underwent a $12.8 million renovation, including the cladding, double-glazed windows and a communal heating system.

Nicholas Paget-Brown, the council’s leader, told the BBC that whether the refurbishment was done appropriately “will need to be the subject of a separate investigation.”

“We need a thorough inquiry into why this fire started, why it spread so quickly, and whether there was anything in place to slow down its progress,” he added.

He said his immediate concern was finding housing for displaced residents.

Did the building meet current standards?
Grenfell Tower’s management company carried out an overhaul of the fire safety system only last year, considering it a model for its many properties. In board meeting minutes last year, it said it would use the same approach on “all major works projects.”

The overhaul came after years of complaints by tenants, and after a deficiency notice was issued by the London Fire Brigade last year relating to another building.

What was the safety protocol, and was it followed?
The fire action protocol said that residents who were safely inside their apartments when there was a fire elsewhere in block should stay put, keeping doors and windows closed. The procedure is not uncommon for such towers in Britain.

A 2014 residents’ newsletter defended this policy on the grounds that the building had been designed to meet “rigorous fire safety standards.” It said apartments had recently been fitted with front doors that could “withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes, which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive.”

Paul Munakr, a seventh-floor resident, told the BBC that alarms in the building had not gone off, leading to initial confusion as to whether there was a fire.

But Mr. King, the engineer, said that in his three-decade career, he had never heard of residents in high-rise buildings being told to stay put.

The Grenfell Action Group, a residents’ group, said it had raised alarms for years about the management of the building.

In a post last November, the action group said that, despite a fire at another tower managed by the company, and power surges found to have been caused by faulty wiring at Grenfell Tower in 2013, residents had received no “proper safety instructions.” The group predicted that it would take a “catastrophic event” to spur the management company to action.

The group said the management company had responded to the concerns by posting fire safety instructions — including the “stay put” policy — at the building entrance and outside elevators on every floor.

A fire risk assessment for the tower conducted in November 2012, and cited by the Grenfell Action Group, said that fire extinguishers in the basement boiler room, the elevator monitor room and the ground floor electrical room were out of date. “Some located in the roof level areas had ‘condemned’ written on them in large black writing with a last test date of 2009 or 2010,” the report said. It was not clear if the extinguishers had since been updated.
How has management responded?

The management company declined to comment on safety concerns, and referred reporters to a statement on its website by its chief executive, Robert Black, calling the fire “devastating” and expressing heartbreak at the reports of injury and loss of life.

In a statement, the Rydon Group, the contractor that refurbished Grenfell Tower last year, said its work “met all required building control, fire regulation and health and safety standards.”

“We will cooperate with the relevant authorities and emergency services and fully support their enquiries into the causes of this fire at the appropriate time,” the company added.

Harley Facades Limited, which made the cladding, did not immediately provide a comment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/world/europe/uk-london-fire-grenfell-tower.html?_r=0




LadyConstanze -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/15/2017 2:06:54 AM)

The cladding was part insulation (apparently the tower was quite drafty) and part cosmetic, it's in one of the most expensive areas in London, a few of the rich people were having problems with looking at an ugly council building, however, considering the costs, somebody said a working fire alarm system and sprinkler system would have been about £300K why this was not in place in a building that houses hundreds of occupants is something they do have to investigate.

The previous Mayor of London, Boris Johnson (now our joke of a Foreign Secretary) however told somebody in the London Assembly to "get stuffed" when questions arose regarding him cutting down on fire services and raised issues regarding security problems, so I am hoping that he will face some questions, preferably in court.




hudsonjeeves -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/15/2017 3:47:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

London fire: Baby caught after being 'dropped to safety from tower'

A baby was caught by a member of the public after being dropped from a window as fire engulfed London's Grenfell Tower, a witness has said.

Samira Lamrani said she saw a woman gesturing to the crowd below that she was about to drop her baby from "the ninth or 10th floor" of the building.

A man ran forward and managed to catch the baby, she said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40272168
Six people have died and 20 people are in critical care after a huge fire engulfed a west London tower block on Tuesday night.

The building is still on fire and many people are unaccounted for.

What happened?
The fire was reported at the 24-storey block, Grenfell Tower, in north Kensington, 00:54 BST.
It is believed to have started on the fourth floor and spread incredibly quickly.
Forty fire engines and around 200 firefighters went to tackle the blaze.



Well its a tower in a lower class ghetto of mostly Muslim immigrants who do not want to learn English or intergrate with a few exceptions. It is surrounded by wealthy people in their several million pound houses. The true facts have yet to come out and may never do if it makes the establishment look bad. Tenant concerns were ignored. Lessons from previous far less distract fires were not learned. Reporting of it was all day long except for news about the dick head who shot dead a republican are two and got shot down himself but that's Looney tunes America for you. Bush wants to make lots of money and protect americans. The best way he can do that is prevent all americans from leaving the USA and so protect the world and make it a lot safer. Now back on topic. The first time in the 60 year history of high rise buildings in the UK that a fire of that magnitude destroyed the building. Likely to be over 40 dead at the final count. It is a miracle that people were walking out of that blazing all over building 5 hours after the fire started. 68 rescued by the London Fire Brigade and hundreds more self evacuated. 68 in Hospital. The richest local authority in the UK, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea does what nowadays all councils do and put their housing stock under the management of social housing groups of mixed reputations. They call them projects in the states and like the term trailer trash it has negative and prejudicial meaning. Catching the Infant was nothing short of a miracle given the distance it was dropped. There will be many myths born of false accounts surrounding the event. Also many genuine accounts of extraordinary heroism. The London Fire Brigade is headed by a woman and so is the Metropolitan Police. Up until a year ago so was the London Ambulance Service. The investigation that follows and the interest and perhaps, public inquiry will reveal more but may never reveal the truth. Local people are doing more to help each other than is the local authority or central government. I am on business in London now and went at 7am yeserday during the event top look around and film. scores of Police hanging around Shepherds Bush Station a mi.le from the fire. Hundreds of Police nearer the scene. Scores of Ambulances and fire trucks with various slogans on the sides. Scores of multi national TV crews and radio crews. I wondered about any hidden particles of the microscopic type that may be in the atmosphere being breathed in. Quite a number of people developed coughs. Many were standing in the open for 12 plus hours. I did some personal filming of that tragic yet historic event. Boris Johnson who was born in New York City is a well educated, related to European Royalty, former Eton and Oxford student. He is no fool even though he acts like one often. He had a Bridge cancelled over the Thames on the say so of a corrupt and later convicted criminal former head of Bexley Council in south east London. The Tories cut public spending but do not lower taxes except for the extremely wealthy. They like Blairite Labor even cut the Armed forces to the bone.




LadyConstanze -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/15/2017 4:23:31 AM)

quote:

Well its a tower in a lower class ghetto of mostly Muslim immigrants who do not want to learn English or intergrate with a few exceptions.


And you base this on exactly what? The eloquent answers most of them gave in interviews? It is a social housing project, anywhere in the world you will not find very wealthy people in there. Quite a few seem to be Brits for several generations.

I am amazed by your mental powers and how you could deduct the religion of the people, where they are from, how long they have been in the UK and their willingness to integrate. Much prejudice?





WickedsDesire -> RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower (6/15/2017 8:20:30 AM)

London fire: Grenfell Tower cladding 'linked to other fires'

The work also included the installation of new cladding - consisting of two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core.

However, experts have told Newsnight that cladding with a mineral core is considered to be less flammable.

Newsnight policy editor Chris Cook said the cladding used on Grenfell Tower was sold under the brand Reynobond.
He said manufacturers offer two different versions of the cladding - one with a plastic core and one with a mineral core.
He said he understood cladding with a plastic core was used in the west London tower.

The cladding installed on Grenfell Tower was also used on other buildings that have been hit by fires around the world, the BBC has learned.

The exterior cladding, added in 2015, had a polyethylene - or plastic - core instead of an even more fireproof alternative, BBC Newsnight understands.

Hudson I really dont know enough to comment on that - but I watched this clip today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40283660/the-man-who-filmed-the-events-of-the-grenfell-fire




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